13 Replies Latest reply on Feb 13, 2013 5:13 AM by nw42

    5.1 Audio Mixer window

    mikem75

      Can anyone tell me what the order of the meters are in a 5.1 project with a 5.1 audio master?  The meters appear to be L, R, Ls, Rs, C, Lfe while the surcode plugin is looking for L,R,C,Lfe,Ls,Rs.

       

      Is there any way to change the order of the audio mixer meter to ensure  it matches with the surcode plugin?

       

      Also, is there any way to send audio exclusively to the Lfe instead of to L,R,Ls,Rs and Lfe?

       

      THX!

        • 1. Re: 5.1 Audio Mixer window
          the_wine_snob Level 9

          There are several questions and considerations here.

           

          1. the order of the VU meters is predicated on the Audio Tracks (AT) in PrPro. At this stage of things, you place source material on the various AT's and then position them spatially. Effects (say a filter on an AT that you want to go to the LFE channel) also can play a role, but you make the decisions.

           

          2. the "standard order of channels in say a WMA file, with the individual tracks set for stripping to discreet mono WAV elements, is as per below:

           

          Track NumberTrack Name
          1Left (front)
          2Right (front)
          3Center (front)
          4LFE
          5Left Surround (rear)
          6Right Surround (rear)

           

          Now, with the SurCode DD 5.1 SS encoding, things change a bit. This does come into play if you go to a program, like Audition:

           

          Track NumberTrack Name
          1Left (front)
          2Center (front)
          3Right (front)
          4Left Surround (rear)
          5Right Surround (rear)
          6LFE

           

          Hope that this helps. If you are Importing and placing "standard" discreet SS files onto AT's, use the first table. [I also rename each AT to reflect exactly what is going to be one it.] If you are Exporting, via SurCode to then plan on using table #2, when dealing with the discrete mono files.

           

          Hunt

          • 2. Re: 5.1 Audio Mixer window
            mikem75 Level 1

            Hey, Thanks for the reply.  Still not quite sure that's got it though.  Here's what I've done.  I have 6 .wav files on my timeline.  Audio 1 is L, Audio 2 is R.  These play fine.  If I put my center track on Audio 3 and pan that front-center the meter shows activity on the 5th bar.  I put my Lfe track on Audio 4, turn up the Lfe feed on the track and the meter shows activity on bars 1,2,3,4 and 6.  Ls goes on Audio 5 (panned to Ls) and meters on the 3 bar, Rs on Audio 6 (panned to Rs) and meters on the 4th bar.

             

            I have two concerns:  First, is there any way to send my audio exclusively to the Lfe output without sending anything to the other outputs.  Second, as described above, the meter appears to show outputs as L, R, Ls, Rs, C, Lfe.  If that's the case and I'm outputing to the surcode plugin which is expecting L, R, C, Lfe, Ls, Rs will that not send the wrong signal to the wrong outputs on playback?

             

            Thanks!

            • 3. Re: 5.1 Audio Mixer window
              the_wine_snob Level 9

              I believe that the reason that your LFE signal is appearing in other channels is that it contains material above the cutoof frequency, i.e. full spectrum signal and being centered is feeding this signal to all channels equally. Not sure what Audio Effects PrPro has (many can be added as VST's) to EQ and filter your LFE channel. Coming from an Audio house, I would have expected that this would have been done for you. Maybe it has, and it's only a matter of placement and settings.

               

              When working in discrete 6 channel material, I usually do the mixing in Audition on Multi-track, and send that Mixdown to PrPro. This is placed on a 5.1 channel Audio Track, and SurCode handles the encoding to AC3 fine. I usually also send this file to the SurCode DTS encoding program to give me a DTS "optional" Audio Track on my DVD's, selectable by Menu. If you get into doing the Mixdown in Audition, let me know, as there are a couple of little things to do, and they are not really intuitive from the interface.

               

              Sorry that I do not have a direct answer for you, but have never done it quite this way. Maybe Jeff Bellune can help more, as he does a good deal of DD 5.1 SS work and probably knows different workflows far better than I do. Neil Wilkes (most often on the Encore forum) also does a great deal of multi-channel Audio for various delivery schemes. I know that DVD-Video with his Audio is one of these. Do not know if he ever uses PrPro, or not. I'd post to the Encore>Audio Handling sub-forum (linking back to this thread) and wait for Neil, or Jeff to weigh-in. Also, from the Encore end of things, Joe Bowden does use PrPro and I believe that he also does a good bit of 5.1 work. Though your question is basically about doing the work in PrPro, getting it right for Encore would bring it into the Encore spectrum. I know that Neil will not likely see this post here, and he's one of the ones, who I would want to hear from. In the Encore forum, he'll very likely see it.

               

              Good luck and I'll be watching for the resolution, because there's no telling when I'll have to do a Project, exactly as you are now.

               

              Hunt

              • 4. Re: 5.1 Audio Mixer window
                mikem75 Level 1

                Thanks for the response again!  I think the problem is there is no way to exclusivly send audio to the Lfe output.  When you place audio on an audio track and turn up or down the send to the Lfe, there is no way to turn down the send to the other channels.  In default, the audio is sent to L,R,C,Ls & Rs as the panner is sitting in the middle of the mix.  You can certainly pan the Lfe track to Left, right, center etc, but there is no way to exclusivly send to the Lfe output.  There is no way (that I can see) to send something to the Lfe channel without sending it to another output as well.  Unless that's changed in CS4 that's a pretty big problem for a pro app.

                 

                Mike

                • 5. Re: 5.1 Audio Mixer window
                  the_wine_snob Level 9

                  You are probably correct with this. That particular control is available in Audition in Multi-track Mode. One can completely isolate each channel, up to 100%.

                   

                  If you find more useful info, please post it here, as I'll be ready to learn something new with the discrete source files in PrPro.

                   

                  Good luck,

                   

                  Hunt

                  • 6. Re: 5.1 Audio Mixer window
                    nw42 Level 2

                    back to the Adobe Premiere Lfe cross talk issue...

                     

                    Lfe cross talk to other channels prevents me from using a 5.1 master channel for a 5.1 sequence where I have to build the audio from 6 discrete audio channels readily sent from the mixing studio...

                     

                    If I insert a 5.1 multichannel wave to the sequence everythings goes right.

                     

                    But - if I insert 6 discrete mono channels (L R C Lfe Ls Rs) I have to route them to the according 5.1 layout.

                    For L R C Ls and Rs this can be done via the 5.1 audio panner. But the Lfe channel always has cross talk to the other channels because it can't be panned exclusively to the Lfe.

                     

                    The 5.1 type of master channel is more logical for the 5.1 workflow then a abstract multichannel setup with 1+2 3+4 5+6 channel groups routed via stupid "stereo balace" knobs to the final output (hmm a stereo knob to mix center and Lfe - I don't get it??)

                     

                    This is a real problem whenever you have to route mono tracks to a 5.1 master audio.

                    If you have feature lenght material Adobe Premiere can't load a 5.1 multichannel wave file because of the 4GB filesize limitation - but you also can't load mono fles and place them on the sequence...

                     

                    Are there any good workflow suggestions here?

                    • 7. Re: 5.1 Audio Mixer window
                      JoshWeiss reTooled Level 2

                      This video may help you also:

                      http://www.retooled.net/?p=317

                      • 8. Re: 5.1 Audio Mixer window
                        nw42 Level 2

                        Hi reToolednet,

                         

                        thanks for the link - good instructions - showing the multichannel route...

                         

                        But for what is it good to have cross talk from the Lfe in a 5.1 master audio sequence?

                        Is this simply a bug or is there a usful workflow assigned to it? (We don't talk about subwoofer - we talk about a Low Frequency Effects Channel that is typically created in a DAW...)

                        • 9. Re: 5.1 Audio Mixer window
                          JoshWeiss reTooled Level 2

                          It is my understanding that a 5.1 mix is not to be used for relaying a

                          mix from an audio mixer. It is meant to be used for people doing their

                          own 5.1 mix in Premiere. So therefore if you get a mix that is a 6

                          channel multimono clip or 6 separate split files for your mix you should

                          use multichannel. As to answer your question about the flaw in the 5.1

                          mix method, I'm not sure the answer or if its a flaw because I've never

                          used this workflow.

                          • 10. Re: 5.1 Audio Mixer window
                            nw42 Level 2

                            without a question multichannel master audio would be the way to go for a readily mixed 6 channel source...

                             

                            but:

                             

                            the multichannel audio mode is a bit wired to setup and you don't see the config directly in the audio mixer

                            - 5.1 panner is visual logical structured - you see if a channel called left isn't panned to the left

                            - multichannel master has all this stereo mixing knobs that have to set right and the setup is confusing:

                             

                            if you want to: get 6 mono channels

                            channel - assignment

                            1 - L

                            2 - R

                            3 - C

                            4 - Lfe

                            5 - Ls

                            6 - Rs

                             

                            you have to setup:

                            channel - assignment

                            1+2 pan 100% left      - L

                            1+2 pan 100% right    - R

                            3+4 pan 100% left      - Ls

                            3+4 pan 100% right    - Rs

                            5+6 pan 100% left      - C

                            5+6 pan 100% right    - Lfe

                             

                            I think this has it's roots in the stereo pairs of tape decks - but it's not called "legacy tape deck mode" ;-)

                             

                            so I would prefer a more logically structured setup...

                            • 11. Re: 5.1 Audio Mixer window
                              JoshWeiss reTooled Level 2

                              oh, totally agree its a completely illogical setup. but at least it

                              works! haha

                              • 12. Re: 5.1 Audio Mixer window
                                Richard M Knight Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                To get the mono LFE track to only go to the LFE of the out put file. Send the track to centre and LFE and send a duplicate of that track to only centre but use the 'invert' audio effect, this will cancel out the centre feed leaving onlt the LFE.

                                • 13. Re: 5.1 Audio Mixer window
                                  nw42 Level 2

                                  Hi Richard,

                                   

                                  clever idea - already read it at the forum ;-)

                                   

                                  - but in my case I have multiple 5.1 & stereo mix versions in the sequence (original version, localized version, cinema mix, home theather mix, TV stereo mixdown...)

                                   

                                  that would add too much tracks and the risk of expoting wrong channels

                                   

                                  The Premiere audio workflow is much better since CS6 but there are a lot of issues left...

                                   

                                  1. unlogical multichannel setup

                                  2. 5.1 panner Lfe cross talk

                                  3. unable to load and save <4GB WAV (needed for 6 channel feature lenght material)

                                  4 unable to do a useful export of discrete channels (I need 6 discrete WAV files per exported 5.1 mix)

                                     but Premeiere only can export the mixdown or a complete multichannel setup (problems with large multichannel files - export error due to 4GB file size limitation - even MXF can't deal with 16channel 24bit)

                                   

                                  so hopefully we will see here some more progress - the import channel routing is great and also the new mixer...