33 Replies Latest reply on Jun 5, 2009 1:20 PM by Jim_Simon

    Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP

    Xoomtell Level 1

      Hi

       

      Have been struggeling with PPCS4 for quite a while getting it to edit and play back AVCHD files (MTS: 720P 50) from my Panasonic AG-HMC151E without making trouble. I run PPCS4 on a Q6700 with 8 GB DDR2 PC800 RAM, Nvidia 512 MB 8800GT and Windows Vista 64 Business SP2. I have eidtted a lot of videos in HD from Canons HF10 without the big issues, but when I started trying to eidt the MTS files from my 151E I got nothing but trouble. It would not play back proberly, stopped, crashed, uses 100% CPU etc. I tried changing the Nvidia from 8800 GT to a brand new 9800GT with no luck. I even (after one week of testing and trying everything and after many hours with no sleep) thought about upgrading the CPU to Q9650 on my 1½ year old PC. I have been waiting for the 4.1 upgrade since late april and expected it to do magic, but NO. It helped a bit - I could now play back but only in draft quality. High quality did mess everything up as before (stopped, did not play smoothly at all). I was all most giving up today....BUT then I tried to reboot into my old old XP Pro installation (at the very same PC as the Vista 64). After updating PPCS4 once more in XP I launched PPCS 4.1 and HEUREKA. I imported a 2 GB MTS file in 2 secs - and playback: SMOOTH even in HIGH QUALITY!!!! What is going on here????? I know PPCS4 is 32-bit, but Adobe have written more than once about the 64-bit support and I have read about Vista 64 bit doing a much better job when working with PPCS4.

      So what is the problem here? Why can´t I edit and play back smoothly using MS state-of-the-art system in 64 bit that is able to use all of my expenssive 8 GB of RAM - but have no problems using the old allmost dead system XP Pro - only using 3 GB of ram?

       

      Adobe? Is this because you have not been doing your work proberly in trying to make PPCS4 doing a great job in Vista 64 or is it MS that has been doing a bad job? Who is to blame if any? Or is it just me having these problems with PPCS4 on Vista and not on XP Pro? Anyone else have a clue? I would rather get smooth playback in Vista 64 - I have paid for it all and I want 64 bit and all my 8 GB ram back, please!!!!

       

       

      (PS: I use all the latest drivers: Nvidia 185 driver, latest BIOS etc.)

        • 1. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
          Jim_Simon Level 8

          Or is it just me having these problems with PPCS4 on Vista and not on XP Pro?

           

          Given the reports from other users, I'm inclined to go with this explanation.

          • 2. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
            David Zeno Level 1

            A friend of mine edits full sized raw AVCHD on his mac with no effort at all.  he has loaded a full hour of AVCHD video, and his mac

            edits it like it is 320x200 sized video.  He can play back the video even from an external drive he has hooked up, and the video

            plays efortlessly, and without any hesitation at all.

             

            What astonished me, was he could be playing the video on the time line, and move the cursor to anywhere in the movie, and without a even a pause, the video would just play.

             

            I also have a very powerful system, 8 gigs of ram, Intel Quad, 9450 chip, which is blazing fast, and AVCHD is impossible to edit, and you cannot even play a minute of video without pausing, jiggers etc.

             

            I truly believe it will take another major release for it to work correctly.

             

            Dave.

            • 3. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
              Xoomtell Level 1

              Have you tried updating to 4.1? Foolish question I know, but just to be sure?

              I think it has helped a little in playback - but it is still making stops and "stuggering".

              I guess my system is not the best for Premiere CS4 - Q6700 is - I guess - way to slow to keep up.

              But then I read you have problems keeping up even with a 9450 - so how high are one going to get to have smooth edit and playback? Sixteen Core Intel Fantazy 3000 Ghz something...?

              I have just noticed that edit and playback is smooth in XP Pro (as I wrote above) but that´s only untill I get some effect or adjustments switched on - Fx. Fast Colour Correction - makes all 4 CPUs going for 90-100% - So it is not good at all - have to upgrade anyway......

               

               

              • 4. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                Colin Brougham Level 6

                David Zeno wrote:

                 

                A friend of mine edits full sized raw AVCHD on his mac with no effort at all.  he has loaded a full hour of AVCHD video, and his mac

                edits it like it is 320x200 sized video.  He can play back the video even from an external drive he has hooked up, and the video

                plays efortlessly, and without any hesitation at all.

                Unless he's using Premiere Pro on his Mac, he isn't editing AVCHD. I'm gathering by the context of your reply that he's using FCP, in which case, AVCHD is being transcoded to something like ProRes on import. As it's an intraframe codec, unlike AVCHD which is interframe, it stands to reason that it cuts much nicer.

                • 5. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                  David Zeno Level 1

                  Hi Colin

                   

                  I don't know what program he was using, but it was not Premier, so it perhaps was FCP, however yes, indeed it was AVCHD film,

                  it is a Canon HF10 that he was using, and that is an AVCHD based camera.

                   

                  I'm not sure what his program does, but the footage is AVCHD, however the program plays with the footage, I don't know,  but

                  it is doing something correctly to make the video so effortless to play with once it is in the editing program.

                   

                  the import of footage takes no time at all either, he copies the footage over from his camera, and moments later he can edit it,

                  there is no delay / waiting for an hour to convert anything here, it's done within 5-10 mins ( if that )  ( for a full hour of footage ), once it shows up

                  in his software, he can play it, edit it, like it is low res SD footage, and is a joy to play around with.

                   

                  Perhaps I'm not understanding how AVCHD footage is imported into a MAC vs the PC, but in any event, whatever the MAC is doing, it is

                  years ahead of the PC ( no matter what PC software you play with ) ( from what I have read sony vegas has major problems with avchd video also )

                   

                  Does the Mac use memory more effeciently ? do they use the speed of the cpu chip in a way that is much more effecient than a PC does ? , I am not sure, but I'm guessing it must be the case, seeing there is no software out there for the PC that can edit AVCHD video like a Mac can at this moment in time.

                   

                  Dave.

                  • 6. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                    Bill Gehrke Most Valuable Participant

                    What recording mode did you use?  AVCHD comes in many data rate recording modes.  Your 151 camera can record at up to 24 Mbps which may be the reason your middle of the road CPU is having problems and a simpler operating system like XP can show better performance.  It is a know fact that any AVCHD requires much more horsepower than for instance HDV  You might need an i7 based computer to fully handle the higher data rate.  The HF100 maximum data rate is 17 Mbps

                    • 7. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                      TradeWind Level 3

                      Depending on what Mac your friend has, it may be that we're comparing dual Xeon quad core processors to single Core 2 Quad processors....and there likely will be a significant difference between the two, regardless of what OS each is running.

                       

                      As for Vista 64 and PPro CS4 (4.1) I'm having no problems at all. The HMC150 footage isn't as quick to edit as HDV, DV or whatever, but I'm having no noticeable deterioration in workflow that could be tied to my current OS (Vista Ultimate x64) or my updated PPro application. It's just a tough edit.

                       

                      FCP, regardless of how it is accomplished in the end, does not actually edit AVCHD files. One way or another, they are converted to intermediary files. There are all kinds of "pro/con" arguments to be made about which is better, but regardless of preference, that is how it is handled in FCP. The obvious major benefit is the previously mentioned intraframe compression, which is so easy to edit when compared to any MPEG variant - especially the MPEG-4 flavors.

                      • 8. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                        Colin Brougham Level 6

                        David,

                        I don't know what program he was using, but it was not Premier, so it perhaps was FCP, however yes, indeed it was AVCHD film, it is a Canon HF10 that he was using, and that is an AVCHD based camera.

                        The only other major option on Mac, other than Final Cut Pro, is Avid, and neither of those natively* edit AVCHD. There are also Final Cut Express and iMovie, but everything I'm finding suggests that neither of those edit natively, either. By "natively" I mean that the program is not able to operate on the original, raw clips from the camera. Instead, they must be converted to another codec/wrapper before they can be edited. With FCP, you use the Log and Transfer window which transcodes the AVCHD clips into ProRes in a MOV wrapper; with Avid, you have to transcode to DNxHD and that must be done outside of the application. Whichever it is, it takes time and drive space, but because these intraframe codecs are far less resource intensive than AVCHD, they are less taxing on a system to edit.

                        I'm not sure what his program does, but the footage is AVCHD, however the program plays with the footage, I don't know,  butit is doing something correctly to make the video so effortless to play with once it is in the editing program.

                        See above; it's highly unlikely that it edits native AVCHD, and is instead transcoding to a more edit-friendly format, like ProRes or Apple Intermediate Codec (AIC) in the case of FCE or iMovie.

                        the import of footage takes no time at all either, he copies the footage over from his camera, and moments later he can edit it, there is no delay / waiting for an hour to convert anything here, it's done

                        within 5-10 mins ( if that )  ( for a full hour of footage ), once it shows up in his software, he can play it, edit it, like it is low res SD footage, and is a joy to play around with.

                        I ain't callin' you a liar, but there has to be some sort of conversion going on. The fact that it's taking "5-10 mins / for a full hour of footage" suggests that something is going on between the AVCHD files and the timeline. If it was indeed editing native AVCHD files, it should be only 5-10 seconds for an import of an hour of footage.

                        Perhaps I'm not understanding how AVCHD footage is imported into a MAC vs the PC, but in any event, whatever the MAC is doing, it is years ahead of the PC ( no matter what PC software you play with ) ( from what I have read sony vegas has major problems with avchd video also )

                        Gotta disagree with you on this point. It's not a matter of what is being done on the Mac, it's a matter of what is not being on FCP--and that's native editing. Premiere Pro on the Mac has all the same capabilities as Premiere Pro on the PC, at least as far as file format support goes, so the platform is not the variable here. In my opinion (and I don't think I'm alone here), the way FCP handles tapeless media formats like AVCHD, P2, or XDCAM is years behind what's being done on Premiere Pro, regardless of it being on Mac or PC. It's just the way FCP is architected right now. Will that change with FCP7? Maybe, maybe not. But I don't see how the time- and space-consuming transcoding process can be considered an advanced technology.

                        Does the Mac use memory more effeciently ? do they use the speed of the cpu chip in a way that is much more effecient than a PC does ? , I am not sure, but I'm guessing it must be the case, seeing there is no software out there for the PC that can edit AVCHD video like a Mac can at this moment in time.

                        It's not the hardware; it's the format of the footage, and the way that footage is handled. Right now, AVCHD editing in FCP seems/is faster that it is in PPro, because you're not actually editing AVCHD (for all the reasons mentioned above). PPro is working directly with processor-intensive AVCHD files, which even on a fast, up-to-date machine can hobble it pretty effectively. Like HDV which was a huge resource hog for the computers of a few years ago and now edits like DV on a modern computer, in a year or so when the next generation of computers is available, AVCHD will cut like butter. By then, who knows what the camera and software manufacturers will be throwing at us.

                        • 10. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                          Steve J Price Level 1

                          I am certainly still having problems previewing AVCHD footage in PP4.1. I also use 64 bit Vista (Home Premium) on a quad core PC (Q660 processor clocked at 2.4GHz with 4GB of RAM and an NVIDIA 8800 based graphics card with 512MB). I've just installed Vista SP2 and, if anything, this has made matters worse. My AVCHD footage comes from a Sony HDR-SR1E and so the H264 bit rate is only 15Mb.

                           

                          Perhaps ADOBE could enlighten us as to exactly what 'AVCHD improvements' have been implemented in the 4.1 update? Is it possibly the case that only XP systems benefit from these?    

                          • 11. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                            Xoomtell Level 1

                            Hi

                             

                            I have tried editing recordings made in 720P 50 - which is about 21 Mps as I remember it. But at the same time I have no problems editing recordings made with the Canon HF10 in 1080P - could it be a codec issue? I guess it must have to do with the systems performance as well...

                             

                             

                            Anyway - I have now decided to order a brand new PC instead (I like Mac but don´t want to pay for another Adobe CS4 license for Mac too).

                             

                             

                            Any comments on the specs - will this system rock og dock?:

                             

                             

                            MBI7 Gigabyte GA-EX58-UD56

                            Intel Core i7-975

                            6 X 2GB RAM DDR3-1333 Kingston (12 GB in all)

                            2 X HDS 1000GB Seagate SATAII (2.0TB in all)

                            Nvidia QuadroFX 1700 512MB PCI-E

                            CASE TT Aguila SNA

                            PSU Corsair TX 650W

                            Pioneer DVD-216 Black S-ATA DVD+-

                             

                             

                            I hope Windows 7 will do a better job....would there be any idea in installing the RC of Windows 7 or should I just keep up with Vista 64 Business and wait for the final release of 7? I guess Windows 7 is to risky to use in a production enviroment? But I have heard that it should be better and more stable and effective than Vista, so????

                            The PC is going to be production only = Adobe Design CS4 + PPro CS4 and nothing else....

                             

                             

                            Any system suggestions? Scratch disk?

                             

                            If this system also wants XP Pro before it can run PPro CS4 there must be something wrong - and I will have lost 3000$ for nothing...

                            Should I send the bill to Bill or Adobe?

                             

                             

                             

                            • 12. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                              Harm Millaard Level 7

                              Remarks:

                               

                              1. i7 975: Waste of money. Better get a i7 920 and OC to 3.6 GHz

                              2. Disks: No OS disk? Go for a Velociraptor for OS. Why the buggy, hot, loud, and slow Seagates? Why not WD Caviar Black or Samsung Spinpoint F1? Use the money saved on the CPU for more disks.

                              3. Why a Quadro 1700? Seems like a waste of money for editing.

                              4. Pretty small case with limited airflow.

                              5. Why Pioneer DVD? Samsung or LG offer better price/performance.

                               

                              Read all the articles. You may get some ideas:

                               

                              How to get the best from a PC? Some guides...

                              • 13. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                                Thrill Media Level 2

                                I would opt for a different video card than the Quadro FX 1700.  I purchased one in December and have not been pleased with the performance overall.  Unless you are doing a lot of 3D you won't need it for PP, and even if you are I think there are better cards out there now than the 1700.  I do mainly PP, AE and 3D using Lightwave and have been underwhelmed after my initial satisfaction.  It is the slowest thing in my Vista64 machine.

                                 

                                I spent a lot of time with PNY support trying to solve the issues to no avail, they even replaced the card,  FWIW.

                                 

                                Curtis

                                • 14. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                                  Xoomtell Level 1

                                  Hi

                                   

                                  Thx. But what graphic card would you suggest then? Must be same price or cheaper.

                                   

                                   

                                  • 15. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                                    Harm Millaard Level 7

                                    I would look at a nVidia GTX 28x or higher or an ATI HD4870 or higher.

                                    • 16. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                                      Bill Gehrke Most Valuable Participant

                                      You definitely do not want a FX1700. It hogs the PCIe bus which slows down the disk performance.  In my testing with 182.46 driver version on my Premiere Pro disk intensive benchmark it doubled the benchmark time versus my current 8800GT.  Anyone want a cheap 1700FX?

                                      • 17. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                                        Xoomtell Level 1

                                        That´s weird. I use the 8800GT allready. I guess the 1800 FX is better - if youy look at the specs it looks as it is 3 times better bandwith and also use 64 bit CUDA instead of 32 bit....

                                        Ppro CS4 should take advantage of CUDA....so how it could possibly be worse than the 8800GT????

                                        • 18. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                                          Xoomtell Level 1

                                          The GTX series is for 3D games - how can it be better than the FX1800 wich uses CUDA Parallel Processor Cores 64 bit?

                                          I can see the bandwith for FX1800 is only 38.4 GB/sec compared to 159.0 GB/sec. But is this important in relation to Premiere Pro or only for 3D games?

                                           

                                          The ATOI does not support CUDA wich CS4 is using.....I´m confused....

                                           

                                          Specs for GTX 285: http://www.nvidia.com/object/product_geforce_gtx_285_us.html

                                          Specs for FX 1800: http://www.nvidia.com/object/product_quadro_fx_1800_us.html

                                           

                                          The pricedifference in Denmark is almost double up.

                                           

                                          So how can a Pro midrange card like 1800 FX be worse than a consumer product for games in Adobe CS4?

                                          • 20. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                                            Jim_Simon Level 8

                                            Ppro CS4 should take advantage of CUDA

                                             

                                            My understanding is that it does so only for the $2000 Quadro CX card, and even then it seems designed mostly around accelerating H.264 encoding, and helps very little with general, every day editing.

                                            • 21. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                                              Xoomtell Level 1

                                              CUDA seems to work with all CUDA enabled cards to some degree - and it accellerates the speed it takes to render video in .264.

                                              It seems to be most significant for the expensive Quadro cards - don´t know if FX 1700/1800 is among these cards?

                                               

                                              I have now looked further into the Nvidia GTX 295 - is this card better than the Quadro FX cards for CS4 (both Premiere, Photohshop, illustrator etc.)? It looks as if the GPU is matching the one in CX some says....it´s build on the same core or something?

                                              • 22. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                                                Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                Whatever you may find out about video card in your search, the real time performance gain between a $ 100 and a $ 2000 card is negligent, measurable in single digit % differences. Whether that is worth the 20 fold price difference is each persons own. IMO I would rather spend that on a better CPU, more memory and better disk setup, where your performance gain can be measured in multiple 10's, maybe 100's of %.

                                                 

                                                And, take note, this applies to all applications, not just to encoding H.264 with AME.

                                                • 23. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                                                  Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                  CUDA seems to work with all CUDA enabled cards to some degree

                                                   

                                                  In Premiere?  What's your source for that data?

                                                  • 25. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                                                    Bill Gehrke Most Valuable Participant

                                                    P.S. The lousy performing FX 1700 is CUDA enabled!

                                                    • 26. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                                                      Xoomtell Level 1

                                                      Yes - I found out about FX 1700/1800 not being worth the price compared to fx. GTX when it comes to PPro editing.

                                                      • 27. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                                                        Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                        The CUDA support is build into some of Adobes products with the CUDA:

                                                         

                                                        The article seemd to deal with Photoshop, not Premiere.  And while there are a great many cards that have CUDA capabilities, it was my understanding that you needed a special driver to enable that for Premiere, which only comes with the Quadro CX, and that it doesn't do a whole hell of a lot besides speed up H.264 encoding.  The article states " there's also a plug-in coming for Adobe Premiere Pro in order to speed up video encoding".

                                                        • 28. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                                                          Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                          That is also my understanding and the reason I always suggest to spend your money where it counts most, not only in PR for H.264 encoding, but for all applications by imporving CPU, memory and disks.

                                                          • 29. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                                                            Xoomtell Level 1

                                                            I think the driver is part of premiere itself - correct me if I am wrong. CUDA seems to be supported in both Photohop and PPro: http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?Itemid=34&id=9602&option=com_content&task=view and it is not only the Quadro CX card.

                                                            • 30. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                                                              Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                              The CUDA driver required is only available to registered users of the CX card.

                                                              • 31. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                                                                Xoomtell Level 1

                                                                Oh yes - I have now seen that this plugin is only available for Quadro CX owners - and it will only work with the CX card. How frustrating when - at least in thoery - all other CUDA enabled cards would benefit greatly in PPro CS4 from such a driver. But NVidia of course want to earn money selling the Quadro CX card instead. From an envirmonetal point of view it would be better to release a plugin that did enable better decoding via CUDA for all the other cards as well - so all CUDA enabled card-owners did not have to buy all those new expensive CX cards.....Are there any hardcore coders that would like to make a free and Open Source driver for Nvidia CUDA-enabled cards that can compete with the CX plugin?

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                • 32. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                                                                  Keith_Andrews Level 1

                                                                  Not to get too off topic here, but I have had this discussion with many folks on many different forums, including this one, about CUDA-enabled NVidia cards, and the drivers available for them.  It is not just the Quadro CX that benefits from CUDA programming.  Many video and audio applications are available to CUDA-enabled Nvidia cards either to buy, or for free.  Badaboom Media Converter will do the same thing for your h.264 encoding that the Quadro CX and it's driver will do.  You can check out the following link for the applications I am speaking of:

                                                                   

                                                                  http://www.nvidia.com/object/cuda_home.html#state=filterOpen;filter=Video & Audio

                                                                   

                                                                  This next link will bring you to the Nvidia page which lists all of the CUDA-enabled video cards in its arsenal:

                                                                   

                                                                  http://www.nvidia.com/object/cuda_learn_products.html

                                                                  • 33. Re: Premiere Pro CS4 (4.1), AVCHD and Vista 64 vs. XP
                                                                    Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                                    Many video and audio applications are available to CUDA-enabled Nvidia cards either to buy, or for free.

                                                                     

                                                                    True, but in this case the discussion was whether or not a CUDA card could be taken advantage of specifically by Premiere Pro.  The answer, it seems, is no for any card except the CX.