26 Replies Latest reply on Jun 12, 2009 12:42 PM by LensView

    camera raw adjustments not showing in prints

    kenmb

      I received a call from a technician with a professional processor about an issue I am having with prints that are much darker than what I see on my calibrated screen. The technician was wondering why I would send files that looked exactly like the original files. So he decided to open the files in Adobe Camera Raw and discovered that there were a number of changes in Camera Raw, i.e. brightness, exposure, etc. that were not showing up in the prints, or upon initial inspection of the file! I've been dealing with this issue of dark prints for a couple of years now and I don't know what else to do! The adjustments made to exposure or brightness levels are mostly very subtle in nature because I like to get it right in camera as opposed to major adjustments in Photoshop, but the reason I purchased Photoshop to begin with is to have a tool that will help present my vision as opposed to getting in my way!

        • 1. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
          Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

          Are you clicking on the "Open Image" button in ACR, or just the "Done" button?  To apply the ACR adjustments you have to Open the Image and save it.

           

          Beyond that, I can't help you, as you have provided not a single useful detail.

           

          Please read this post by a forum host for advice on how to ask your questions correctly for quicker and better answers: 

          http://forums.adobe.com/thread/375816?tstart=0

           

          Thanks!

          • 2. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
            kenmb Level 1

            I think some are misunderstanding what's being said! The technicians at these internationally known professional photo processors are indicating to me that they are at a loss as to what the answer is because they can see the changes I've made in Camera Raw embedded in the files but they can't understand why those changes are not reflected in the actual viewed image or print. One even indicated to me that he had submitted questions in the Adobe Forum but has not received a response yet! All of these files were processed or batch processed with Photoshop image processor in order to record the changes and there is no question from the processors that the Camera Raw Adjustments are embedded in the files!

            • 3. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
              Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

              There are no mind-readers or clairvoyants here.

               

              I repeat:

               

              …you have provided not a single useful detail.

               

              Please read this post by a forum host for advice on how to ask your questions correctly for quicker and better answers: 

              http://forums.adobe.com/thread/375816?tstart=0

               

              Thanks!

              • 4. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                kenmb Level 1

                If there's not enough info for you to respond then please by all means chose someone else to berate! I am here for solutions, not to argue back and forth with someone who clearly does not offer any possibility of resolving these issues!

                • 5. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                  Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

                  Just click on the link provided and give folks here the information requested on that page.  Someone else will be able to respond, but not without knowing further details.

                  • 6. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                    Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

                    Note that your post has been up for over four hours and it has been viewed over fifty times, without anyone having enough information to reply.

                     

                    In that span of time, the creator of both Photoshop and Camera Raw, as well as one of the ACR Team Engineers have been able to respond to other posts here.

                    • 7. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                      kenmb Level 1

                      The reason that nobody has responded is they're probably stumped just like Duggal, MPIX, ACI, Photopipe. If you can see the embedded ACR adjustments but the image looks like the same file before any adjustments have been made then you're stuck.

                      • 8. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                        Jeff Schewe Level 5

                        kenmb wrote:

                         

                        The technicians at these internationally known professional photo processors are indicating to me that they are at a loss as to what the answer is because they can see the changes I've made in Camera Raw embedded in the files but they can't understand why those changes are not reflected in the actual viewed image or print.

                         

                         

                        Because the processors (if they are telling you the truth which is dubious) are clueless boobs...

                         

                        If you take a JPEG or TIFF image and adjust it in Camera Raw and hit DONE instead of OPEN, all you've done is adjust the metadata, not the actual pixels. so, what you've provided the processors is, in effect, unfinished images...

                         

                        When you make the adjustments in Camera Raw, actually open the darn images into PHotoshop and save them out–rename so you don't overwrite your originals.

                        • 9. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                          Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

                          Jeff has confirmed what I said in post #1.

                           

                          [EDITIn other words:  You made adjustments only to the metadata because you did not Open and Save the images.  When the clueless "operators" view the file in Camera Raw, the metadata adjustments are temporarily seen in ACR, as expected.  If they would then go ahead and open and save the file  (or if you had done so originally) the adjustments would be applied to the newly opened and saved files and would be reflected in the prints.]

                           

                          Before you fire off an angry post at Jeff, please note that he literally wrote the book on Camera Raw:

                           

                          http://www.amazon.com/Real-World-Camera-Adobe-Photoshop/dp/0321580133/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s =books&qid=1238313549&sr=8-1

                           

                          That's not just highly recommended but essential reading for you.

                           

                          Message was edited by: Ramón G Castañeda

                          • 10. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                            kenmb Level 1

                            I guess you guys are not actually reading my posts; because if you did you would have gleaned from the info I provided that all images in question were opened in Photoshop, processed and saved via Photoshops Image Processor. Since it seems you guys only mission is to demean us novices that clearly don't have as much knowledge as you about Photoshop; I'll simply wait until those Professionals that I depend on day-in and out get back with me on a solution!

                            • 11. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                              kenmb Level 1

                              Even though I still consider myself a novice and will probably never consider myself an expert on anything, I read as much as I can on any subject of interest! In my library I have Photoshop publications by Martin Evening; Adobe Photoshop CS3 for Photographers, Mark Galer; Photoshop CS3 essential skills, Scott Kelby; the Adobe Photoshop CS3 Book for digital photographers, Matt Kloskowski; The complete guide to Photoshop Layers, Elaine Weinmann/Peter Lourekas; Visual quickstart guide Photoshop CS3, Lee Varis; Skin, Chris Weston; Photoshop Pro Photography Handbook, to name a few. I'll read any number of these books before I would subject myself to being battered on the internet. Maybe I'll pull my Mamiya RZ out and go back to strictly shooting film again; I can always predict what the results are going to be on that route!

                              • 12. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                                Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

                                Then you would have neglected to have "Image Settings" checked in ACR when you used the Image Processor.  The end result is the same.

                                 

                                ACR_image_settings_in_dropdown.jpg

                                 

                                Except that in that case, your lab "operators" would probably not have been able to see any Camera Raw Adjustments.    Like Jeff, I doubt they are telling you the whole story.  It's possible, for instance, that the "operators" do not know what the default settings are for the camera profile used in ACR, and they are interpreting, say, a Contrast setting of 25 and a Brightness setting of 50 as "your adjustments", when in reality they are not.  That's just one of many possibilities in which they can be wrong.

                                 

                                Another possibility is that you had processed the files correctly, but inadvertently sent copies of the original raw files with the sidecar files to the lab, the wrong files.

                                 

                                Unless you can post such a mysterious file, the most likely cause will remain a mystery.  You can send very large files for free through:

                                 

                                http://s5.yousendit.com/

                                 

                                You have insulted the two people who have tried to help you.  Let's see who else tries.

                                • 13. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                                  Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

                                  kenmb wrote:


                                  …you would have gleaned from the info I provided that all images in question were opened in Photoshop, processed and saved via Photoshops Image Processor.

                                   

                                   

                                  "Gleaned" my foot!

                                   

                                  Not once have you mentioned what file format you used to save those files!

                                   

                                  Not once have you referred to any of the information requested in

                                  http://forums.adobe.com/thread/375816?tstart=0  (as per post #1)

                                  • 14. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                                    kenmb Level 1

                                    Image Settings is checked in the ACR drop-down panel and the only change I ever make in that area is to register a new Camera Raw Default if I am white balancing some files in ACR. When I am shooting portraits or models I will make adjustments to the raw files before I open them individually into Photoshop. Since I have habit to go to the camera calibration panel in ACR to make sure that my setting matches my standard camera beta, I then have chance to register and save my new camera raw default. I have always noticed that this camera beta matches the jpgs I shoot with a typical contrast setting of 25 and a brightness setting of 50. When I process with image processor I am usually processing maybe 200 or 300 files at one time that have already been processed in Photoshop or did not require Photoshop processing. These files are never raw file, they are jpgs or tiffs that either required minor adjustments to levels or are simply being resized for different output.The camera raw adjustments that the labs are viewing are the adjustments to the tiffs and jpgs that have been outputted by Photoshop.

                                    • 15. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                                      ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      Are you saying you use Photoshop and ACR to produce JPGs from RAWs, then re-edit those JPGs in ACR, again, to make minor adjustments, then use the Image Processor to create a another copy of JPG with those adjustments, and are sending that final JPG to your processing lab?

                                       

                                      As someone tried to say, earlier, each time you use ACR to make adjustments to a JPG, you need to re-save it as a new image.  If you are adjusting a JPG in ACR (not the original RAW, but a JPG) and open it in Photoshop, you will see those adjustments in Photoshop, but they are not "backed in" to the JPG until you save the JPG, again, from Photoshop (or using Save Image in ACR) to create a new copy with the adjustments backed in.

                                       

                                      In other words, when using ACR to adjust a JPG, ACR will embed the XMP-type data into the JPG headers, instead of creating an XMP, and only ACR (or Photoshop silently using ACR on open) will see those ACR changes until you resave the image.  Failing to resave the image to a new image-file after adjusting it in ACR will result in an image where all other programs besides Photoshop, will only see the JPG before the ACR changes were made to it.

                                      --

                                      If you feel you have done things correctly regarding resaving the image after adjusting in ACR, then another guess as to the issue woul be that the color-profile is somehow ProPhotoRGB coming out of ACR and you're not converting to sRGB or AdobeRGB (whichever the processor needs) as you resave from ACR.

                                      • 16. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                                        kenmb Level 1

                                        Any time I make any adjustments, whether that is in Photoshop or ACR, I always save the images by way of ACR save function, Photoshop save as function on individual files or image processor with large batches of files. I have never used a ProPhotoRGB colorspace for anything.

                                        • 17. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                                          rasworth Level 1

                                          Ken,

                                           

                                          Just to double check, I opened a jpeg within ACR 5.4, made an adjustment, and used the lower left hand Save button to create another copy with a different name.  The image viewed with other than Photoshop shows the edits, and when opened in Photoshop does not invoke ACR.  In other words, this process produced a "clean" jpeg without the "hidden" edits.

                                           

                                          So not questioning your veracity, but are you absolutely sure you went the Save route as opposed to Done?  I urge you to go back and rrepeat the experiment, convince yourself one way or the other.

                                           

                                          Richard Southworth

                                          • 18. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                                            kenmb Level 1

                                            Yes, I am quite sure!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                            • 19. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                                              Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                              Well, the issue here may actually be one of a root level failure to communicate...

                                               

                                              If the base complaint is that the prints are "darker" than the image as you see them on your screen, the problem of ACR edits showing or not showing up may well be a red herring...

                                               

                                              If you make adjustments in Camera Raw, physically open the resulting images in Photoshop and save them while making sure that don't overwrite the original, there is simply no way the ACR changes could _NOT_ be visible in the images you sent to the printer unless you 1) didn't in fact save out the files as new files and simply hit "Done" in ACR or 2) sent the printers the wrong files that didn't have the adjustments made to them (IE: the originals but without the adjustments).

                                               

                                              The fact that you seem to be horribly confused only further confuses the whole situation.

                                               

                                              However, since the root problem seems to be "dark prints" I really suspect en entirely different problem. You have an LCD whole luminosity is so bright that no printed output could ever match to tone.

                                               

                                              So, what you need to do is outline in explicit detail EXACTLY what you are doing to the files withe what and when BEFORE you are sendijg the images out to the printer (and in what format) or else we're all sitting around guessing what your problem is.

                                               

                                              Note that I personally don't have this issue so I can't tell you from my own experience what you are doing wrong–but I absolutely guarantee that either YOU or the printer is screwing something up along the way because what you say is happening should not be happening (and prolly isn't happening).

                                               

                                              So, what EXACTLY are you doing with what, when to achieve this problem you say you are having?

                                              • 20. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                                                kenmb Level 1

                                                Ahh!! Condescension 101, I took that course about 30 years ago and it did'nt work! When you're able to distinguish between ACR and PS Image Processor, then you might want to take another stab at it!! But thanks for trying!!

                                                • 21. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                                                  Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

                                                  kenmb wrote:


                                                  When you're able to distinguish between ACR and PS Image Processor,

                                                   

                                                  kenmb,

                                                   

                                                  You have no reason and no right to be posting snide comments, as you have failed to give us the most elementary information requested.  Your posts so far have been the antithesis of a model of clarity, so we are still in the dark both as to what you have been doing and as to what the exact nature of your problem is.

                                                   

                                                  Please take a step back and try to calm down.

                                                   

                                                  At the risk of being insulted by you once again, I'm going to try once more.  After all, I have a thick skin and can hurl insults back with the best and the worst of them. 

                                                   

                                                  So far you have written about "Adjustments" that the lab workers can detect in Camera Raw and are not being "reflected" on your prints.  This is indeed the Camera Raw forum so, given the paucity of information received from you so far, we can only assume that you are indeed performing adjustments to your images in ACR.

                                                   

                                                  You then speak of saving your files through the Image Processor.

                                                   

                                                  Here's the rub: we are missing one step.  Unless you Open an image in the Camera Raw panel (dialog box) by using the OPEN button in ACR after making your adjustments, the adjustments WILL NOT BE applied to the pixels, they will be just stored only in metadata.  That's what happens when you use the "Done" button in the the Camera Raw panel (dialog box).  That does you no good, especially since your lab will be using a non-Adobe application that cannot read the adjustments embedded in your file.  When you do that and then proceed to use the Image Processor to batch process your files and save them for the lab, you end up with files the pixels of which have not been touched, despite being saved by the Image Processor.

                                                   

                                                  Let's for a moment forget about batch processing and let's concentrate on what needs to be done to a single individual image:

                                                   

                                                  First, you need to use ACR to perform your adjustments on the image.  When finished, you need to click on the "Open" button in the ACR panel (dialog box).  <—— THIS is the step that actually applies your adjustments to the pixels.  Then the image will be opened by Photoshop and kept in RAM only until you actually save it in Photoshop, before using the Image Processor on that file.  You now have a saved file to the pixels of which your adjustments have been directly applied.  ONLY THEN can you use the Image Processor on that and other files similarly saved already.

                                                   

                                                  If you run the Image Processor on files with adjustments embedded in metadata as opposed to adjustments applied to the pixels themselves, only Adobe software such as ACR, Bridge and Photoshop can detect the embedded adjustments, but non-Adobe software (like the one used by your lab to print, e.g a RIP) will not be aware of the existence of the embedded adjustments.  That's why the lab staff can see the adjustments when they use Adobe software (ACR) to view the images.

                                                   

                                                  AAAA_Use_Open_not_Done.jpg

                                                   

                                                  It's a combination of the missing step of Opening and Saving the image files in ACR before using the Image Processor and the lab using non-Adobe software that is generating image files with embedded adjustments in metadata which are being ignored by the printing application used by the lab.

                                                   

                                                  If you disagree with any of the above, I would hope that you take the time to explain exactly what you're doing, rather than resort to throwing tantrums and insulting people who are only trying to help you.

                                                  • 22. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                                                    Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

                                                    I'm fully aware that, in an effort to keep things simple, I may have oversimplified the process and not covered every single alternative.

                                                     

                                                    (E.g., of course using the Save button in ACR has the same effect as hitting the "Open" button in ACR, then saving a new file in Photoshop, which is obviously a time saver.)

                                                     

                                                    My aim has been to drive home the point that files processed and adjusted in ACR need to be saved in a particular way for non-Adobe software to reflect the ajdustments performed in ACR.

                                                    • 23. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                                                      Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

                                                      Another way of saying it would be:

                                                       

                                                      The only way I can think an image file can have adjustment information embedded in metadata in such a way that ACR (or other Adobe software) can see it but non-Adobe software cannot—as opposed to having had its pixels actually modified—is if it was adjusted in ACR without saving it as a new file.

                                                       

                                                      If anybody can come up with a different scenario, please chime in.

                                                      • 24. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                                                        LensView Level 1

                                                        Some basic troubleshooting questions:

                                                        - How do the images you send off look on your computer in Photoshop? In other viewers?

                                                        - Did you check your calibrations (display, printer profiles)?

                                                        - How do the images look on another computer? If they are ok on a completely different computer, then the problem is probably with the processor.

                                                        - Can you print them on your own printer and what do these prints look like?

                                                         

                                                        Basically, you have to go step by step, from the original raw image to the file you send to the processor and verify the image at every step in Photoshop and some other viewer and on another computer. That's the only way to find out when and where the problem appears.

                                                        Once that done, you can start investigating the how and why of it.

                                                         

                                                        Hope that helps.

                                                        • 25. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                                                          Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

                                                          AAA_wrong-poster.jpg

                                                           

                                                          LensView,

                                                           

                                                          You're replying to the wrong post, not to the original poster.

                                                           

                                                          Just clarifying to avoid further confusion.

                                                          • 26. Re: camera raw adjustments not showing in prints
                                                            LensView Level 1

                                                            Oops, sorry Ramón! I didn't get much sleep last night ...