26 Replies Latest reply: Jun 8, 2009 11:07 PM by George Austin RSS

    How to create a "double blending" ?

    Christian Davideck Community Member

      Hi there, maybe you have an idea how to do this ? I once knew, but I can't rember ...

       

      The question is, I have the image below (see attachment) with two layers: the sky (normal blending) and the magic ray (pin light). This displays as can be seen below. Now, what I'd like to do with the ray, is getting the hue+saturation from the sky layer, in other words apply a luminosity blending. So what could I do to have the pin light + luminosity blending simultaneously ?

       

      Many thanks,

      Chris

       

      sky.jpg

        • 1. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
          Zeno Bokor CommunityMVP

          Hue+Saturation gives you the Color blend mode, not Luminosity. Just drag a copy of the sky layer above the ray and set it to Color. Why Pin Light though? try Linear Light

          • 2. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
            Christian Davideck Community Member

            Thanks for showing up.

            Zeno Bokor wrote:

            Hue+Saturation gives you the Color blend mode, not Luminosity.

             

            My OP says: "Now, what I'd like to do with the ray, is getting the hue+saturation from the sky layer, in other words apply a luminosity blending [to the ray layer]." that's correct. If you set the ray layer to luminosity, you get hue+saturation from the background layer.

             

            Just drag a copy of the sky layer above the ray and set it to Color.

             

            No, no duplicating of layers. I want to avoid to increase file size.

             

            Why Pin Light though? try Linear Light

             

            it's just an example. Pin light/linear light doesn't change anything about my question in theory. The point is, how can I apply 2 blending modes ?

            • 3. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
              Zeno Bokor CommunityMVP

              I'd say that you're over complicating things. You want the color of the sky on the ray so if you don't want to increase the size, make a Smart Object out of the sky layer, copy it above the ray and set it to Color

              • 4. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                Christian Davideck Community Member

                No, duplicating Smart Objects also increases file size. Besides, this is just a simplified example. In reality the sky layer is a compound of dozens of layers, clipping masks, etc.

                 

                I'd just like to restrict the pin lighting to it's luminosity aspect (i.e. apply pin lighting AND luminosity) and I'm looking for an elegant solution, without duplicating raster layers, etc.

                • 5. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                  Reynolds (Mark) Community Member
                  I'm looking for an elegant solution, without duplicating raster layers, etc.

                  Yes your right, its hardly ever necessary to duplicate raster layers - the same effects can always be achieved with blend modes and adjustment layers

                   

                  I'd just like to restrict the pin lighting to it's luminosity aspect

                  The problem is Christian, the description of your problem makes it very difficault to understand EXACTLY what you are trying to do, and you are misusing terms which doesn't help. A merged layer using your pin light blend - blended using Luminosity is the solution to how I interpret that comment, but cant be sure.

                   

                  There is always a solution to these things - as I said you solution may be a simple case of recolorising your results using TARGETED range adjustment layers. Also properly structuring of your file (using layer groups, and understanding how these can be individually color controlled, and blended) - may be the key.

                  • 6. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                    Zeno Bokor CommunityMVP

                    weird, for some reason i thought that copying SOs doesn't change file size as the copy would be just a reference point toward the original SO

                     

                    The other way around this would be to set the ray to Pin Light, Ctrl+Alt+Shift+E to merge everything to a new layer, delete the ray and set the merged copy to Luminosity

                    • 7. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                      Reynolds (Mark) Community Member

                      Every copy of an Smart Object you make (instance or actual duplicate) also duplicates the PREVIEW pixels held in the master file.

                      • 8. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                        Zeno Bokor CommunityMVP

                        so then why does it make the file on the disk bigger? does it also preview the file size on disk?

                         

                        Adjustment layers can't be used as dummy layers for the Hue/Sat/Color/Lum blend modes, you need to duplicate pixel layers, no working around that

                        • 9. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                          Reynolds (Mark) Community Member
                          why does it make the file on the disk bigger?

                          Because its duplicating pixels. Remember each one of the instances of the Smart Object can have a different scaling and transform. I'll repeat myself since you didnt seem to listen first time -  "also duplicates the PREVIEW pixels held in the master file."

                           

                          Adjustment layers can't be used as dummy layers for the Hue/Sat/Color/Lum blend modes, you need to duplicate pixel layers, no working around that

                          Your actually completely wrong on this one Zeno. As a very simple example, take a curve and apply Multiply blend to it. Then duplicate the pixels and apply a Multiply blend. Same result, smaller file. While there are many of tutorials all over the place telling people to duplicate pixels to do these things, (easier for people to conceptualise perhaps, but more likely to do with lack of knowledge on the part of those writing the tutorials) - duplicate pixels extremely rarely have an advantage over non-file heavy methods.

                          • 10. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                            Zeno Bokor CommunityMVP

                            and i'll repeat myself, it doesn't make any sense, it shouldn't do that The way i see it, when you embed a file as a SO it creates a file inside your .psd. When you duplicate the smart object it shouldn't take up twice the memory, it should reference the pixels from the first SO and only require memory/disk space for what you add to the second SO (layer styles/filters/etc).

                             

                            You know, i had this image of Smart Objects that they work something like Adjustment layers in that it only takes a couple of bytes to tell it to reference the original image. I don't know where i got it from but i always assumed that it was correct so i never bothered to put it to the test, what a let down

                            • 11. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                              Zeno Bokor CommunityMVP

                              I didn't say anything about Multiply, i specifically said that this only happens with the Hue/Saturation/Color/Luminosity blend modes, try to do what he asks with adjustment layers, see if it works

                              • 12. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                                Reynolds (Mark) Community Member

                                Works the same with any mode Zeno, try it.

                                • 13. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                                  Christian Davideck Community Member
                                  I'm looking for an elegant solution, without duplicating raster layers, etc.

                                  Yes your right, its hardly ever necessary to duplicate raster layers - the same effects can always be achieved with blend modes and adjustment layers

                                   

                                  Mark, I'm glad that you see it the same way.

                                   

                                  Going back from smart objects to the original question ... what terms am I misusing? I don't hink so.

                                  I'm not sure what you don't understand:

                                   

                                  As I said above:

                                   

                                  I'd just like to restrict the pin lighting to it's luminosity aspect (i.e. apply pin lighting AND luminosity)

                                   

                                  It would then look like this (check the .psd document, if you're unclear about the layer configuration):

                                   

                                  sky copy.jpg

                                   

                                  No, I know there are ways to get this screen output (adjustment layers, etc.) but that's not the point ...

                                  • 14. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                                    Christian Davideck Community Member

                                    Just to make it clear: I don't need this specific image and this specific outcome (which could be achieved with adjustment layers, too). I'd simply like to find a way to "combine" (or however you wanna call it) two blending modes ...

                                    • 15. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                                      Reynolds (Mark) Community Member

                                      First of all Zeno…

                                      i had this image of Smart Objects that they work something like Adjustment layers in that it only takes a couple of bytes to tell it to reference the original image

                                      When photoshop opens the file, it needs a  RASTERISED VERSION held in the master document. If it were to use the method you have proposed it would slow things down impossibly. Every time you open a file, every movement, adjustment it would have to render  on the fly. These things can become quite complex - imagine a file with 200 instances of the same Smart Object. Would be impossible. I used to think the same as you when Smart objects were first introduced.

                                      • 16. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                                        Christian Davideck Community Member

                                        Folks, I don't mean to be rude or anything, because I honestly appreciate a lot that you are trying to help me! ... but would you mind to continue a discussion about smart objects in another thread (there are quite a lot about smart objects), because it doesn't have anything to do with this issue ... I'd be thankful indeed

                                        • 17. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                                          Zeno Bokor CommunityMVP

                                          as i said, i didn't really think it through, i was just presuming that it worked like that, don't overanalyze it

                                           

                                          So then back to the question at hand, how would you use adjustment layers to achieve the effect that he wants? i for one couldn't figure it out

                                          • 18. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                                            Christian Davideck Community Member

                                            thank you guys.

                                             

                                            Zeno Bokor wrote:

                                             

                                            how would you use adjustment layers to achieve the effect that he wants? i for one couldn't figure it out

                                             

                                            It's not difficult to use adjustment layers for this example. Just add a hue/saturation adjustment layer, or a curves layer or whatever you like and clip it to the ray layer ... but that's really not the point. The question is not how to find workarounds that just happen to look like the image above. It's rather a matter of principle ... an enhanced use of blending modes, if you will.

                                            • 19. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                                              Reynolds (Mark) Community Member

                                              Its not possible to directly combine two blend modes using a simple process. Blend modes use specific math, and as a result combining them is not a straightforward, the order in which they are applied for one thing makes this impossible. You have to analyse visually what you want. If you can achieve pretty well the same visual result using lets say Hard Light with advanced blending why not do it that way?

                                              • 20. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                                                Christian Davideck Community Member

                                                Reynolds (Mark) wrote:

                                                Its not possible to directly combine two blend modes using a simple process. Blend modes use specific math, and as a result combining them is not a straightforward, the order in which they are applied for one thing makes this impossible.

                                                I know about the maths. But the example I'm giving you here is mathematically possible: Apply a pin light blending but restrict it's outcome to luminosity changes ... (it's a bit like adding a curves layer and set it to luminosity, to restrict the outcome to luminosity changes, if you understand the analogy).

                                                 

                                                You have to analyse visually what you want. If you can achieve pretty well the same visual result using lets say Hard Light with advanced blending why not do it that way?

                                                When you say "advanced blending" are you referring to "blend if"?

                                                I already answered this. Because it may happen to give a similar outcome for this example. But I don't care about this specific image.

                                                 

                                                I want to be able to restrict blending modes to hue, saturation, luminosity or color (because I'm not sure as to whether this would work with other modes, too. For example, you can't apply "darker color" AND "lighter color", this is mathematically impossible).

                                                • 21. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                                                  Reynolds (Mark) Community Member

                                                  Ok, thinking this through again, what you are asking is a very interesting challenge Christian: A non destructive way to achieve the same result as a applying two modes to a layer in a particular order.

                                                   

                                                  I dont think this is possible at the moment for the reasons I've said. Maybe someone, (one of the engineers maybe?) could tell me if I'm wrong. The ways that have been pointed out to you by Zeno, accurately achieve the same result, granted in a non editable way. In addition Calculations could be used. An arrangement of layers? At the moment I'm not so sure this is possible  - mainly because the blend mode math is fixed and not editable in any way. Grouping, group modes and layer structures do not help here.

                                                  • 22. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                                                    Christian Davideck Community Member

                                                    Reynolds (Mark) wrote:

                                                     

                                                    Ok, thinking this through again, what you are asking is a very interesting challenge Christian: A non destructive way to achieve the same result as a applying two modes to a layer in a particular order.

                                                     

                                                    You got it. We're on the same page now.

                                                     

                                                    I dont think this is possible at the moment for the reasons I've said.

                                                     

                                                    Maybe technically it's not possible (although I'm sure that there must be a way to do it), but mathematically it IS (I hope you see, why).

                                                     

                                                    The ways that have been pointed out to you by Zeno, accurately achieve the same result, granted in a non editable way.

                                                     

                                                    Yes, in a non-editable way, and by duplicating raster layers, increasing file size, etc. And most importantly: it's not quite the same thing as your statemetn in bold above.

                                                     

                                                    In addition Calculations could be used. An arrangement of layers? At the moment I'm not so sure this is possible  - mainly because the blend mode math is fixed and not editable in any way. Grouping, group modes and layer structures do not help here.

                                                     

                                                    Yes, I was also thinking of grouping the layer and setting the group blend to luminosity .... or clipping the ray layer to a 50%gray layer with pin light and set the ray layer to luminosity (with or without "blend clipped layers as a group") ... just guessing around, but obviously all those things don't work ... but I'm sure, there's a trick if you combine the right techniques ...

                                                     

                                                    ... maybe Chris will show up here, as he knows a lot about the blending modes ... :hope:

                                                    • 23. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                                                      Reynolds (Mark) Community Member
                                                      ... but I'm sure, there's a trick if you combine the right techniques ...

                                                      I'm not so sure, if there were a trick for this type of thing, pretty convinced I would have heard of it. I remember trying to find the same solution, back in the days of 6 or 7.

                                                       

                                                      Zeno's Smart Object solution was also a very good non-destructive recommendation When it comes to issues like file sizes, then things have moved on.

                                                      • 24. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                                                        Zeno Bokor CommunityMVP

                                                        knockouts also don't help. Another option would be to just fake it, add a Color/Gradient Overlay set to Color to the ray that has the same color as the sky

                                                        • 25. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                                                          Christian Davideck Community Member

                                                          Zeno Bokor wrote:

                                                           

                                                          knockouts also don't help. Another option would be to just fake it, add a Color/Gradient Overlay set to Color to the ray that has the same color as the sky

                                                           

                                                          thanks for searching though (knockout, etc.) ...

                                                          and as for your suggestion, well as I said, it's an example only. Imagine there were flowers instead of the sky ...

                                                          • 26. Re: How to create a "double blending" ?
                                                            George Austin Community Member

                                                            One thing you've heard from me before on a recent post by Christian:  None of the four blend modes Hue, Saturation, Color, and Luminosity preserves the saturatiion of either the base color or the blend color. Repeat NONE.  Zilch. Yes, you can preserve base hue and base luminosity via the saturation blend mode, base luminosity and blend hue  via the hue blend mode or color blend mode, and base hue and blend luminosity via the luminosity blend mode. But SATURATION of neither the base nor blend color gets preserved by any of these blends despite what Photoshop Help says to the contrary. So you're not going to get hue and saturation from the sky by applying the luminosity blend.

                                                             

                                                            It's also an exercise in futility to attempt combining Pin Light (an RGB blend) with Luminosity (an HSB blend) into a single blend action. Their different color spaces require separate mathematics.