1 2 Previous Next 45 Replies Latest reply on Aug 6, 2009 8:35 PM by xbytor2

    Adobe forgot ACR 4.x ?

    foto_las

      Everybody is talking about CS4 and ACR 5.x
      I know ACR5 updates 4 times a year.

       

      Will Adobe update ACR 4.x CS3 to support the latest DSLR as E-620 ?

        • 1. Re: Adobe forgot ACR 4.x ?
          MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

          No, there will not be another ACR 4.x version. The last version of ACR 4.x

          has already shipped, and it is ACR 4.6.

           

          To open E-620 raw files with ACR 4.x in CS3, you will first need to use the

          DNG Converter here to conver tthe .ORF files into .DNG files:

           

          http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Camera_Raw_5.4

           

          This requires an extra step, but it is free.

           

          Eric

          • 2. Re: Adobe forgot ACR 4.x ?
            foto_las Level 1

            Thanks for your answer, Eric.

             

            But that decision some CEO high up in Adobe has done is very anoying for many ACR4.x users that paid a lot for CS3.

             

            And most of all, it shows low respect and bad support for many CS3 users.

             

            They could at lest have support for CS3 one year after CS4 release.

            • 3. Re: Adobe forgot ACR 4.x ?
              Jeff Schewe Level 5

              It's been Adobe's long standing policy to only provide updates and support for current shipping products. Camera Raw for CS3 had 6 free updates during the life of CS3. Now that CS4 is shipping the updates and support are for CS4. While you may not like it, it makes perfect sense to actually support their current customers, not former customers. Truth be told, you are leaving a lot of potential image quality on the table by sticking to Camera Raw 4.x.

              • 4. Re: Adobe forgot ACR 4.x ?
                Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

                What Jeff said, but I'll elaborate a bit on his post.

                 

                ACR 5.3 is sooooooooo far ahead of ACR 4.6 that the upgrade is a no brainer.

                 

                In my case, I upgraded to CS4 entirely on the strength of the ACR upgrade.  I would have gladly paid $200 for fust an upgrade to ACR 5.x, so that, in my case, I feel Adobe gave me CS4 for free.  Honestly, the upgrade cost is more than fully justified.

                 

                Disclaimer:  — I'm the farthest thing from a fanboy, Adobe's or anyone else's, so I have no stake whatsoever in your upgrading or not.

                • 5. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                  foto_las Level 1

                  So Adobe is the ultimate ruler of what a good support is when they STOP support for CS3/ACR4 when a new product is released!

                   

                  Would you say the same concering car industry.

                  If your car broke and you need sparepart, and the car producer said "our policy, no more spareparts when we start sell new car on market, you have to buy a new car".

                   

                  The car owners would get furius about that kind of policy.

                   

                  But when adobe stop support for CS3, som adobe supporters defend adobes bad support policy.

                   

                  Concerning car industry, their is a law to produce spareparts at least 7 years.

                   

                  So it should be a total normal policy for adobe to give support 1 year for CS3/ACR4 after a new product is relased as CS4/ACR5.

                   

                  Or is the problem that adobe is so big that it just can overrun all customers and not care for support for ACR4 ?

                  • 6. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                    John Joslin Level 6

                    Your analogy with the motor industry is flawed. Adobe Camera Raw is a free plug-in and not an essential spare part.


                    Adobe are not under obligation to support any brand or model of camera, and do provide the (also free) DNG converter for those who don't want to upgrade Photoshop.


                    If you are serious about your work the upgrade is not a big deal.

                    • 7. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                      Singh, Shangara Level 1
                      Your analogy with the motor industry is flawed. Adobe Camera Raw is a free plug-in and not an essential spare part.

                       

                      While the analogy is flawed, ACR is not a free plug-in. It's now an essential part of Photoshop. When people buy Photoshop, the fact that its packaged with Photoshop, as is Bridge, is taken as adding value to the package. DNG Converter, OTOH, is free.

                       

                      Adobe make it abundatly apparent how much support is provided with each release. Problem is, not many people read the licence terms and then because they expect everything for free, blame Adobe for not meeting their expectations.

                       

                      Just out of interest, which car manufacturer provides free parts for 7 years, or even servicing?

                      • 8. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                        John Joslin Level 6

                        It's now an essential part of Photoshop.

                         

                        Well it is important (but not essential) for Photographers who shoot raw.


                        (I wonder what proportion of users that is?)


                        The current policy is the only way to do it without undue complication and extra cost.

                        • 9. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                          foto_las Level 1

                          Well, seems like many are resellers for adobe here.

                           

                          Lets compare adobe with microsoft.

                           

                          Win95 was updated FREE several years after Win98 was released.

                           


                          I am not asking for 20 years free upgrade for CS3, only one year.

                           

                          I want decent support for new cameras RAW for CS3/ACR4 one year after they released a new version CS4/ACR5.

                           

                           

                           

                          Is that so hard to give support one year ?

                           

                          Yes for adobe it is, adobe CEO maybee want all money they can get hold of, after new release they do not spend a penny more on earlier customer for their expensive CS3 software customer bought.

                           

                          Bad adobe customer policy.

                          • 10. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                            Singh, Shangara Level 1

                            Well it is important (but not essential) for Photographers who shoot raw.

                            HUH? How else are you going to process the raw files using Photoshop? Of course it's essential.

                             

                            Adobe sell Photoshop as an image editing and processing application, therefore, ACR is NOT free:

                             

                            Enjoy superior conversion quality as you process raw images with the industry-leading Adobe Photoshop Camera Raw 5 plug-in, which now offers localized corrections, post-crop vignetting, TIFF and JPEG processing, and support for more than 190 camera models. Adobe.
                            • 11. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                              JimHess-5IFZWq Level 3

                              No, it is NOT essential.  There are other raw converters, some from camera manufacturers, some from other third party software developers.  Some of those are free.  The workflow might not be as integrated, but that isn't the issue here.

                               

                              I really like Camera Raw.  But I don't like Adobe's arrogant attitude.  They say that the program architecture changes so significantly that it isn't feasible to make Camera Raw backward-compatible with older versions.  Reality is, they have a very effective marketing tool.  And, the reality is, if you want the latest Camera Raw and all its features you have to have the latest version of Photoshop.  And that just isn't going to change.  If you don't like it, find another alternative.  They are out there but you have to look for them.  In the meantime, Adobe has control and they aren't going to change.  I don't like the policy either.  My camera is an older model, so I'm staying with Photoshop CS3 and "limping" along with ACR 4.6.  But it doesn't seem to be hurting me.

                              • 12. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                                Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                JimHess wrote:

                                 

                                They say that the program architecture changes so significantly that it isn't feasible to make Camera Raw backward-compatible with older versions.  Reality is, they have a very effective marketing tool.  And, the reality is, if you want the latest Camera Raw and all its features you have to have the latest version of Photoshop.

                                 

                                Don't know much about writing code do ya bud? While it's entirely possible that some limited things such as a new camera could be put into older versions of Camera Raw, the newer features of ACR 5.x couldn't be stuffed into ACR 4.x. Code evolves and branches. Once ended for a new direction old code stays unsupported. Yes, indeed the architecture evolves...and in some cased backwards compatibility would take an enormous about of work–work that would interfere with supporting the CURRENT customers. You willing to forgo new features in future versions so some former customer who are too cheap to upgrade is getting support way beyond the current shipping version...I'm not.

                                 

                                Look, there are "current customers" of Photoshop CS4 that will get free upgrades for the life of CS4 (already at the 4th upgrade in under a year) and there are "former customers" of previous versions. CS3 users (that fall into the former customer camp) had their support end when CS4 shipped. They got 7 free updates to Camera Raw during that cycle. Now CS3 supported has ended...deal with it.

                                 

                                The free (did I mention it costs nothing) DNG Converter will allow former users back to Photoshop CS and Camera raw 2.4 the ability to use new camera with their old software.

                                 

                                And that's the way it is...it ain't greed, it's management of resources and engineering time. I would much rather see Adobe concentrate all their attention on CURRENT customers and NEW versions instead of bending over backwards dealing with backwards compatibility issues. Hey, you got the bucks to buy a new camera? Make sure you have the bucks to but an upgrade to your software–or hey, here's an idea, use the free *******' software that COMES with the camera.

                                 

                                And just to put a finer point on this issue, the guilty party in all the compatibility issue are the camera makers who refuse to adopt any standardized raw file formats that FORCE Adobe (and other software developers) to constantly update software for new cameras...don't see a lot of people Pissing&Moaning™ about the fact the camera requirement for upgrading is the fault of the camera makers.

                                • 13. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                                  Singh, Shangara Level 1

                                  I said how else are you going to process raw files IN PHOTOSHOP. It is ESSENTIAL to Photoshop if that is what you bought it for. It is part of the package. It is NOT free.

                                   

                                  You want to believe otherwise, be my guest. But if you want to argue the toss, at least put some logic behind it.

                                  • 14. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                                    JimHess-5IFZWq Level 3

                                    Jumping Walrus wrote:

                                     

                                    I said how else are you going to process raw files IN PHOTOSHOP. It is ESSENTIAL to Photoshop if that is what you bought it for. It is part of the package. It is NOT free.

                                     

                                    You want to believe otherwise, be my guest. But if you want to argue the toss, at least put some logic behind it.

                                    You can always use one of the various third-party raw converters to process your raw images and save them as TIF images.  Then you can open those images in Photoshop to finish your work.  Like I said previously, it's not as integrated but it is possible.  And on that approach, that is why I said Camera Raw is not essential.

                                    • 15. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                                      Singh, Shangara Level 1

                                      JimHess wrote:

                                      You can always use one of the various third-party raw converters to process your raw images and save them as TIF images.

                                      That is NOT processing raw files in Photoshop. That is processing TIFF files in Photoshop. IF you want to process raw files in Photoshop, then Camera Raw is essential.

                                      • 16. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                                        JimHess-5IFZWq Level 3

                                        Jeff, I have the utmost respect for you.  I have your book and have recommended it countless times.  And I have outlined the DNG approach to many people.  I understand all of that.  I don't expect Adobe to stuff new features into a 4.x version of Camera Raw.  But I don't buy the idea that Photoshop changes so significantly that the new version of Camera Raw cannot be integrated.  I think a fair approach would be to charge a reasonable fee to be able to continue getting Camera Raw updates if I'm not using a current version of Photoshop.  After all Photoshop Elements is able to utilize newer versions.  Yes, I know, Elements isn't nearly as sophisticated or complicated as Photoshop, but I still believe that part of the program that integrates ACR could remain compatible from one version to the next.

                                         

                                        I know you are going to yell at me like you usually do, and that's OK.  I am an advocate of Adobe products and use them exclusively.  But I still believe Adobe could be a little more considerate of people with older versions.  Yes, they provide the DNG converter.  I have it, I use it occasionally, I explain it to others.  But I still don't buy the argument that the new version of Camera Raw cannot be integrated into older versions of Photoshop.  I have read your many responses on this topic, and I believe you answer them like a true Adobe person should answer them (I know, you are not an Adobe employee).  But there is always another way to program something.

                                        • 17. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                                          JimHess-5IFZWq Level 3

                                          Jumping Walrus wrote:

                                           

                                          JimHess wrote:

                                          You can always use one of the various third-party raw converters to process your raw images and save them as TIF images.

                                          That is NOT processing raw files in Photoshop. That is processing TIFF files in Photoshop. IF you want to process raw files in Photoshop, then Camera Raw is essential.

                                          You don't really process a raw file in Photoshop anyway.  The header on the file only indicates the name of the raw file that the pixels came from.  When you have finished your editing in Photoshop you cannot save those changes back to the raw file.  They have to be saved to a different format.  Photoshop cannot edit a raw image.

                                          • 18. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                                            Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                            JimHess wrote:

                                             

                                            But there is always another way to program something.

                                             

                                             

                                            Uh huh, and at what expense in time and effort? Could Adobe provide updates to older versions for newer cameras? Pretty sure they could, but why? Why would any engineer want to work on OLD code for OLD customers of OLD versions? Don't you see the idiocy of that? They need to spend their time supporting CURRENT customers or working on NEW features and functionality for NEW versions.

                                             

                                            So, suppose Adobe DID provide backwards support for old customers...what should they charge? How about $199? Which is the update cost to CS4 anyway...don't you see the irony where people will drop big bucks for their fancy, shiny new camera and getting them to upgrade software is like pulling teeth? What, it's ok to charge for tangible personal property (the camera) but intellectual property (software) somehow has less inherent value that "real" property?

                                             

                                            Give me a break...considering it's the camera makers themselves that is causing this problem because they refuse to adopt any standards–I have ZERO sympathy for somebody who is complaining about the lack of support for software that's no longer even being sold. Go complain to Nikon and Canon will ya?

                                             

                                            Use the free camera software....use DNG Converter or get the *******' upgrade but quit whining about lack of support for old software. It will do no good cause it ain't gonna change (nor should it in my opinion).

                                            • 19. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                                              Singh, Shangara Level 1

                                              That's something totally different to ACR not being essential for Photoshop in order to process raw files.

                                               

                                              Photoshop needs ACR and ACR needs either Photoshop or Bridge (leave After FX out of it). And you cannot buy the Bridge/ACR combo on its own.

                                               

                                              And you are wrong about changes made to raw files having to be written to another format. The changes are saved into a sidecar file before you open the *image* in Photoshop. So they are always accesible along with the original raw data. For example, by Lightroom.

                                               

                                              Photoshop cannot edit a raw image.

                                              And that's why ACR is essential for processing raw files in Photoshop.

                                               

                                              Nuff said.

                                              • 20. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                                                JimHess-5IFZWq Level 3

                                                Jumping Walrus wrote:

                                                 

                                                That's something totally different to ACR not being essential for Photoshop in order to process raw files.

                                                 

                                                Photoshop needs ACR and ACR needs either Photoshop or Bridge (leave After FX out of it). And you cannot buy the Bridge/ACR combo on its own.

                                                 

                                                And you are wrong about changes made to raw files having to be written to another format. The changes are saved into a sidecar file before you open the *image* in Photoshop. So they are always accesible along with the original raw data. For example, by Lightroom.

                                                 

                                                Photoshop cannot edit a raw image.

                                                And that's why ACR is essential for processing raw files in Photoshop.

                                                 

                                                Nuff said.

                                                You still don't get it!  As soon as you have opened the image in Photoshop, editing of the raw image has ended.  So it doesn't matter whether you do your raw editing in ACR or some other raw editor.  Whether you realize it or not there are a lot of people who do their raw editing in other raw converters and then use Photoshop to finish up.  It just takes a change in workflow to do it.  Yes, as you said, "nuf said", but get your facts straight.

                                                • 21. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                                                  JimHess-5IFZWq Level 3

                                                  Jeff,

                                                   

                                                  I didn't think I was whining.  I stated my opinion.  You and Adobe just seem to be a little too arrogant to talk to.

                                                  • 22. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                                                    Singh, Shangara Level 1

                                                    Hey, my facts are straight. You just seem to be hell bent on proving a point that can't be proved: Photoshop needs ACR to process DIGITAL CAMERA RAW files.

                                                     

                                                    Have a nice day!

                                                    • 23. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                                                      Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                                      JimHess wrote:

                                                       

                                                      You and Adobe just seem to be a little too arrogant to talk to.

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      Hum, I think you are misusing the word...

                                                       

                                                      From Merriam-Websert online:

                                                       

                                                      arrogant...

                                                       

                                                      1 : exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner <an arrogant official

                                                       

                                                      2 : proceeding from or characterized by arrogance <an arrogant reply>

                                                       

                                                      Considering the only "Adobe" reply was from Eric Chan in the very beginning where he explained there would be no further update to ACR 4.6 (which I hardly think was anything other than polite), I don't see Adobe falling into the arrogant bucket.

                                                       

                                                      Me? yeah sure, that's fine and dandy...Adobe just doesn't have the time & resources for updating out of date software. How could that possible be considered arrogant?

                                                      • 24. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                                                        JimHess-5IFZWq Level 3

                                                        Jumping Walrus wrote:

                                                         

                                                        Hey, my facts are straight. You just seem to be hell bent on proving a point that can't be proved: Photoshop needs ACR to process DIGITAL CAMERA RAW files.

                                                         

                                                        Have a nice day!

                                                        Whether you have ACR or not, Photoshop CANNOT edit a raw image.  All editing of the raw image has to be done either in Camera Raw or another raw processor.  When you finish editing in ACR and pass the image to Photoshop, you are no longer editing the raw image.  The changes that were made in the raw converter are now part of the image, and the result has to be saved in a different format, JPEG, TIFF, PSD, etc..  The changes made in Photoshop will never be part of the raw image.  So the only difference when using a third-party raw converter is that the other file is created before you edit it in Photoshop rather than after your Photoshop editing is finished.  Under no circumstances does Photoshop edit the raw image.  Even if you have ACR, Photoshop does not edit the raw image.

                                                        • 25. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                                                          JimHess-5IFZWq Level 3

                                                          Jeff Schewe wrote:

                                                           

                                                          JimHess wrote:

                                                           

                                                          You and Adobe just seem to be a little too arrogant to talk to.

                                                           

                                                           

                                                          Hum, I think you are misusing the word...

                                                           

                                                          From Merriam-Websert online:

                                                           

                                                           

                                                          arrogant...

                                                           

                                                          1 : exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner <an arrogant official

                                                           

                                                          2 : proceeding from or characterized by arrogance <an arrogant reply>

                                                           

                                                          Considering the only "Adobe" reply was from Eric Chan in the very beginning where he explained there would be no further update to ACR 4.6 (which I hardly think was anything other than polite), I don't see Adobe falling into the arrogant bucket.

                                                           

                                                          Me? yeah sure, that's fine and dandy...Adobe just doesn't have the time & resources for updating out of date software. How could that possible be considered arrogant?

                                                          OK, I'm through with this discussion.  I still like Adobe, I still use and respect your book.  I just didn't realize one is not allowed to state an opinion without being shredded.  Thanks for your insight.  I know things aren't going to change.  But neither is my opinion.

                                                           

                                                          Really, it's kind of a stupid point to even discuss.  I have known for years how this whole thing works.  It still doesn't stop me from wishing it could be different.  I know it won't be.  But maybe that opinion is one that should not be stated.  Kind regards.

                                                          • 26. Plugin camera support
                                                            xbytor2 Level 4

                                                            One thing that has puzzled me a bit is why CR does not have more of a plugin-style architecture to support new camera models.

                                                            For instance, when Nikon or Canon release a new camera model, it is a safe assumption that the new raw file format is an evolution

                                                            on previous models. CR could support all of the old capabilities of new file format on launch day by simplying releasing a config file that

                                                            says 'Use the D90 definition for D95 .nef files'. It wouldn't support all of the new features of the new camera, but for most people that

                                                            would be fine. When the details for the D95 were worked out, a new 'device driver' for it could be released separately or it could

                                                            be bundled into the next CR rev. There are ample examples of this capability elsewhere in computer hardware and software.

                                                             

                                                            The only time this would really not be technically feasible would be when there is a revolutionary change, something like a switch

                                                            to a new type of sensor, ala Foveon.

                                                             

                                                            I understand that the reasons for this are probably non-technical. The plethora of posts here of people mis-installing CR attest to that.

                                                            But it would be nice, especially if the camera plugin interface was open and published.

                                                            • 27. Re: Plugin camera support
                                                              Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

                                                              xbytor2 wrote:

                                                               

                                                              One thing that has puzzled me a bit is why CR does not have more of a plugin-style architecture…

                                                               

                                                              Any particular reason why your post is "in response to Ramón G Castañeda"? 

                                                              • 28. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                                                                Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

                                                                JimHess wrote:

                                                                 

                                                                … so I'm staying with Photoshop CS3 and "limping" along with ACR 4.6.  But it doesn't seem to be hurting me.

                                                                 

                                                                No, it's not hurting you physically, Jim.  But you could be getting a little more quality out of your images and accelerate your workflow with ACR 5.4.  Local adjustments are a genuine time saver.

                                                                 

                                                                Additionally, by staying with CS3, you are colaterally stuck with the worst piece of software ever released by Adobe or any other major developer, namely Bridge 2.x.  Yes, Adobe should have fixed that for free, but, shamefully in my opinion, Adobe did not.

                                                                 

                                                                Not trying to undermine the thrust of your arguments, just putting in my two cents to remind you of the real benefits of the upgrade to CS4.

                                                                 

                                                                You're even a Windows user, so you have the 64-bit advantage to consider too.

                                                                • 29. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                                                                  JimHess-5IFZWq Level 3

                                                                  Ramon,

                                                                   

                                                                  I understand what you are saying.  But I am also using Lightroom 2.4 along with my Photoshop CS3.  So I have all the local adjustments, the gradual filter, etc. that you speak of.  And as far as Bridge is concerned, I hardly ever use it.  My workflow allows me to work between Lightroom and Photoshop without ever using Bridge.

                                                                  I realize that CS4 is a big step forward in many respects.  But the way I'm working now works for me, and it saved me some money.  I might consider CS5, but I'll have to wait and see.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                                                                    Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

                                                                    JimHess wrote:

                                                                     

                                                                    Ramon,

                                                                     

                                                                    …I am also using Lightroom 2.4 along with my Photoshop CS3.

                                                                     

                                                                     

                                                                    Fair enough.  That covers everything.

                                                                    • 31. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                                                                      JimHess-5IFZWq Level 3

                                                                      But in reality I guess none of this really matters much anymore.  I'm 66 years old, I have been cut back to 3/4 time at work, I had to purchase another car, and I have a disability.  Put that all together and it puts me pretty high on Obama's list of people to eliminate under the new universal health care bill.  Not much to look forward to.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Plugin camera support
                                                                        xbytor2 Level 4

                                                                        I probably hit the wrong Reply button. At least I didn't blank-post from email for the 20th time.

                                                                        • 33. Re: Plugin camera support
                                                                          Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                                                          xbytor2 wrote:

                                                                           

                                                                          One thing that has puzzled me a bit is why CR does not have more of a plugin-style architecture to support new camera models.

                                                                           

                                                                          Plug-in to a plug-in? Yeah, right...

                                                                           

                                                                          Point of fact at one point I'm pretty sure Thomas looked into that...but considering Camera Raw/Lightroom support over two hundred camera formats, I'm pretty sure it wasn't worth the effort since each and every camera does need it's own decoding and profiling anyway. Tucking that stuff into a plug-in would seriously complicate the coding...

                                                                           

                                                                          And it's really not correct to assume that the differences between old and newer cameras is only metadata. In some cases that has been the case, in other they are completely different.

                                                                           

                                                                          Which still all comes back to the fact that the camera companies are the villains here. If they had the guts and the intelligence they would see the benefits of adopting a standardized raw file format-make no mistake about this, the only "secret" that is tucked into raw files is the fact there are no *******' secrets. The real secrets in terms of proprietary technology is the analog to digital converters in use today. They are absolutely remarkable...but by the time the files are written to media, there's nothing truly proprietary left...

                                                                           

                                                                          But most users are ignorant of the real issues here and blame Adobe because they choose not to upgrade out of date software...don't you realize this would all be MOOT if the camera companies were made to respect the industry and do the right thing? Heck even the camera maker's own software (which must ALSO be updated every time they create a new camera) would benefit from DNG...

                                                                           

                                                                          Why is it photographers lay down and play dead when they get a new camera that isn't supported by their out of date software and not complain to the people really responsible for the issue?

                                                                           

                                                                          Seriously, undocumented, proprietary raw file formats are BAD for the photographic industry....it's NOT a question of whether or not Adobe does or doesn't update old software, it's a question of why should they? The camera makers could easily adopt DNG (for no payment to Adobe mind you) and everybody would benefit...

                                                                           

                                                                          Yet Photoshop users are perfectly willing to let the camera makers off the hook when they buy a shiny new camera...

                                                                           

                                                                          Look, it's not Adobe's fault, ok? Heck, they've even given the industry DNG to use which even allows Camera Raw 2.4 hosted in Photoshop CS to open a 5D MII file in Photoshop CS...

                                                                           

                                                                          Isn't it just about time photographers get it right in their heads and start whining to the camera makers instead of Adobe?

                                                                           

                                                                          Just asking...it's a rhetorical question really, I know the answer. No, photographers are like kids with new toys at Xmas right up to the point where they learn they need to buy batteries to make the toy work.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Plugin camera support
                                                                            xbytor2 Level 4
                                                                            Plug-in to a plug-in? Yeah, right...

                                                                             

                                                                            Heh heh.

                                                                             

                                                                             

                                                                            And it's really not correct to assume that the differences between old and newer cameras is only metadata. In some cases that has been the case, in other they are completely different.

                                                                             

                                                                            I didn't make that assumption. I was just proposing that for cases where it is only metadata changes, zero-day support would be possible if only for a subset of the capabilities.

                                                                             

                                                                            I don't fault Adobe at all for their release practices or schedules. They keep me in business and I understand that there are both technical and non-technical reasons behind the decisions they make. I'm just curious about the technical software-related ones because that's my field of expertise.

                                                                             

                                                                             

                                                                            Seriously, undocumented, proprietary raw file formats are BAD for the photographic industry

                                                                             

                                                                            I'm with you on this. I'm all about open standards, etc... and consider proprietary raw file formats an unnecessary evil perpetrated on us by the camera vendors. Adobe has done us all a great service with DNG and XMP. Our digital photographs and metadata are no longer restricted to proprietary limited formats. This is just like breaking free of the MS-Word file format lock in via OASIS OpenDocument.

                                                                             

                                                                             

                                                                            Just asking...it's a rhetorical question really, I know the answer. No, photographers are like kids with new toys at Xmas right up to the point where they learn they need to buy batteries to make the toy work.

                                                                             

                                                                            Yep. Understood. I won't buy a new camera until I know it's supported by DNG/CR. And exiftool. It wouldn't fit in my workflow and would be nothing but a shiny new prop.

                                                                            Unless, of course, it's that Nikon that's coming out with the built-in projector. But it probably doesn't do raw anyway, so I'm safe.

                                                                            • 35. Re: Adobe forget support ACR 4.x ?
                                                                              Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

                                                                              JimHess wrote:

                                                                               

                                                                              But in reality I guess none of this really matters much anymore.  I'm 66 years old…

                                                                               

                                                                               

                                                                              Cheer up, Jim.  I'm older than you are, I've been permanently disabled for over five years, and five years ago I was told by some of the brightest medical minds in this country of ours that I had less than fourteen months to live.  Here I am, ornery as ever, on the most meager disability income one can imagine, and unabashedly enjoying life within my limitations, surrounded by my wife, my offspring, my brother, a huge extended family and many friends, including the one long-time friend that I haven't managed to outlive.  Life is a b¡tch, but life is also grand, a great gift beyond our comprehension.

                                                                               

                                                                              As Hildegard Knef sang: »Glück ist eine Frage der Bescheidenheit«.  (Literally "Happiness is a question of modesty".)

                                                                              • 36. Re: Adobe forgot ACR 4.x ?
                                                                                MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                                                                xbytor2, at the technical level, we could certainly do the architecture.

                                                                                That's the easy part, I'm afraid. The hard part is all the special cases.

                                                                                These cases would vary on a per-model basis and would be hard for us to

                                                                                anticipate and document (for support basis). Remember, even when the file

                                                                                extension stays the same, and most of the metadata stays the same, there is

                                                                                almost always some small (but very important) change in some piece of

                                                                                metadata with each new model. While you may be right that for some users,

                                                                                that would be ok for an initial release, for others it would be an

                                                                                unacceptable user experience. There are also several additional implications

                                                                                involving backwards compatibility and DNG. Some may argue that half-working

                                                                                camera support is better than no camera support, but I don't agree.

                                                                                • 37. Re: Adobe forgot ACR 4.x ?
                                                                                  Panoholic Level 2

                                                                                  Sorry, Eric, but this is a rather poor excuse. I am not saying, that it is not so as you explained, but if it is, then it's time to redesign the product.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  ACR is able to process DNG files; this means, that a complex internal data structure will be constructed from a DNG file, which will be processed by the rest of the code. As ACR does not process anything what can not be specified in DNG, that structure does or can represent everything required for the processing.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  A plug-in (rather an input modul, which is much simpler than a plug-in) could build the same data structure and pass it to ACR. This would work with the restriction, that DNG increments can not be processed this way. Big deal.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  At least this is, how a system architect would design it. Of course, sales considerations override professional aspects.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Gabor

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Adobe forgot ACR 4.x ?
                                                                                    Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                                                                    Panoholic wrote:

                                                                                     

                                                                                    ACR is able to process DNG files; this means, that a complex internal data structure will be constructed from a DNG file, which will be processed by the rest of the code.

                                                                                     

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Yeah and to the best of my knowledge the first thing Camera Raw does when opening a proprietary raw file is convert that data to DNG for processing in Camera Raw. Something somewhere has to decode the data and normalize it for the Camera Raw/Lightroom raw processing pipeline...

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Now, whether or not that decoding could be done by a chunk of coded grafted on top (via some sort of plug-in) of core Camera Raw code or by updating Camera Raw core code doesn't really matter eventually...something somewhere must be updated. Unless and until the darn camera manufactures normalize the the raw file formats this is what we are stuck with.

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Adobe forgot ACR 4.x ?
                                                                                      MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                                                                      Gabor, effectively what you call an "input module" is what we call the "DNG

                                                                                      Converter." Clearly, a direct input module would be more convenient for the

                                                                                      user, but architecturally it is not so different. The only difference lies

                                                                                      in whether or not the intermediate representation (i.e., the DNG) is written

                                                                                      to disk prior to being fed to the renderer.

                                                                                       

                                                                                       

                                                                                      ACR is able to process DNG files; this means, that a complex internal data

                                                                                      structure will be constructed from a DNG file, which will be processed by the

                                                                                      rest of the code. As ACR does not process anything what can not be specified

                                                                                      in DNG, that structure does or can represent everything required for the

                                                                                      processing.

                                                                                       

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