37 Replies Latest reply on Jun 18, 2009 7:48 AM by rrwwis

    How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?

    rrwwis

      I have been editing my HV30 footage in PE4 for over a year and rendering and saving the video using the HD 1080i 30 preset getting a high quality result with no significant motion artifacts.  Now I want to upload some video to YouTube and since YouTube recommends a 1280 x 720 resolution, I tried using the PE4 HD 720p 30 preset.  With this preset, I get very severe motion artifacts. How can I render at 1280 x 720 resolution and avoid the motion artifacts

        • 1. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
          Paul_LS Level 4

          Did you try deinterlacing the 1080i footage before exporting to 720p. Right click on the clip and select Field Options, Always Deinterlace.

          • 2. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
            rrwwis Level 1

            I tried the "Always Deinterlace" option with no improvement.  Still get unacceptable motion artifacts when using the HD 720p 30 preset.

            • 3. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
              Paul_LS Level 4

              Instead of using the default 720p export preset you could use a custom Quicktime H.264 720p export. See this article:

              http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/12/08/exporting-with-adobe-premiere-in-720p/

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                rrwwis Level 1

                I carefully reviewed the article that you referred me to.  I tried the Quicktime H.264 720p export with the custom settings specified in the article with my Field options set at both "None" and "Always deinterlace".    In both cases, the motion artifacts were worse than I was getting before.

                • 5. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                  Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                  Something is definitely wrong here. I'm beginning to believe the interlacing problem might be happening much earlier in the process.

                   

                  Is your original Premiere Elements project set up as an HDV project, and was the video captured by Premiere Elements?

                   

                  Can you post the MOV file some place so we can see it?

                   

                  Muvipix.com has free display space. This will let us see the original MOV file -- unlike Vimeo or YouTube, which re-encode whatever you post.

                  • 6. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                    A.T. Romano Level 7

                    SG

                     

                    I have been working with this user at another web site and just found this discussion going on here as well.

                     

                    From what I have been told the Camcorder is a Canon HV30, and video is being captured into Vegas Pro (upper field first). I have not yet determined the file extension of the captured video that ends up saved to the hard drive before being imported into Premiere Elements 4 as HD 1080i30, using a Premiere Elements 4 project preset of HDV HD 1080i30 or HDV HD 720p30.

                     

                    We have gone through the basics of Field Options and their significance, and variations on the Fields options have been reported to have been tried unsuccessfully. Motion artifact issues are reported to be present in all of the exports tried: MPEG, Windows Media, and Quicktime.

                    I have never used Vegas Pro, so I have suggested a video capture from the Canon with HDVSplit instead of Vegas Pro and working with that captured video.. Is there any merit in that suggestion in your opinion?

                     

                    I have read that the conversion of HD 1080i30 to HD 720p30 is difficult, but have you actually found it possible.

                     

                    Might it not be better if the user sent you the captured video before it gets to Premiere Elements 4 rather than one of the failed formats? Maybe both?

                     

                    ATR

                    (I will leave it for the user to correct any errors in my relaying of the story.)

                    1 person found this helpful
                    • 7. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                      Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                      Thank you for that very helpful background, Tony. There are also a number of people offering suggestions on Muvipix.com's forum to his post there. So, if nothing else, the best video minds in the world are all working on it!

                       

                      I suppose it is possible that the video capture method is at the root of this -- but Vegas really doesn't function that differently from Premiere Elements. It's hard to imagine that that is the issue.

                       

                      But I would like to see the final product he's producing -- in its clean MOV format, before Vimeo or YouTube adds its own artifacts into the mix.

                       

                      As you know, lots of video show interlacing when viewed on a computer. I'd like to see for myself just how pronounced it is.

                      • 8. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                        rrwwis Level 1

                        I am grateful to have all you experts working on my motion problem.  Tony has covered the history quite well.  I will add a few more details.  The video was captured by Vegas Pro to an m2t file.  Imported into PE4 HD 1080i30 project.  When I export from PE4 via Share/Personal Computer/Mpeg using the default HD 1080i 30 preset, I get excellent result with no motion artifact problem as long as the Field Order is set to "None".    But when I try to export to 720p, everything that I have tried gives me unacceptable motion artifacts.  As Steve suggested, I have uploaded a test video in MOV format to a public album (rrwwis/bob w) on the Muvipix.com site for you to view.  This test video was created using John Cloudman's Quicktime settings. The first clip had the Field Order set to "None" and the second clip was set to "Always deinterlace".

                         

                        Thank you for your help. 

                        • 9. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                          A.T. Romano Level 7

                          SG

                           

                          Just want to make sure we are on the same page. The information that I have is that the user sees these motion artifacts when the video (imported HD 1080i30) is on the Timeline, even before the decision is made on export type of MPEG, Windows Media, or Quicktime. The motion artifacts are introduced even before YouTube can get involved.

                           

                          As I said before, I still do not know the file extension of the HD 1080i30 that has been captured by Vegas Pro and saved to the hard drive prior to import into the Premiere Elements 4 Timeline.

                           

                          Is there yet another thread on this topic at your web site or is there just private/unpublished chat going there on this issue? I know of 2 threads so far, here and at the web site that I frequent

                           

                          It was not the greatest test, but I created a "fake" HD 1080i30 with a .wmv file extension and exported it in Premiere Elements 7 to HD 720p30 with a .wmv file extension. Worked great without invoking Field Options or anything unusual.

                           

                          ATR

                          • 10. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                            A.T. Romano Level 7

                            rrwwis

                             

                            I know that you have said repeatedly that HD 1080i30 import/export as you described had no problems with motion artifacts. But....the m2t file extension information just supplied is new news for me....so,

                             

                            Did you have any problems importing the HD 1080i30 with the m2t file extension into Premiere Elements 7? Prior to the actual import to the Premiere Elements Media/Timeline, did you have to change the file extension to .avi or .mpg?

                             

                            ATR

                            • 11. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                              rrwwis Level 1

                              ATR

                               

                              I am using Premiere Elements 4.  I have never had any problem importing m2t files, whether captured by PE4 or Vegas Pro, into PE4.  I never have to change the file extension.

                              • 12. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                rrwwis Level 1

                                I would also point out that I have no problem with motion artifacts when I burn my HD 1080i30 projects to DVD using PE4 as long as the Field Option is set to "None".  If I set the Field Option to "Always deinterlace", then I will have motion problems on my DVD.

                                • 13. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                  Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                                  I have to admit, guys, I'm completely confused at this point. Trying to follow it on three different forums, with different information on each forum, has got my head spinning.

                                   

                                  I think we need to ask wwrris to try one piece with a clean slate. Capture it in Premiere Elements, use an HDV preset and output an MOV file -- all of this with default field options -- and then post this MOV so we can look at it.

                                   

                                  Otherwise, we're chasing so many variables, it's hard to say what's happening where!

                                  • 14. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                    rrwwis Level 1

                                    Steve

                                     

                                    This morning before seeing your latest message, I did capture the clip with Premiere Elements into a HD 1080i30 project.  I used the default Field option setting which is "None".  I exported to a MOV file using John Cloudman's settings.  The test video has been uploaded to the Muvipix site.

                                     

                                    Using the video captured by PE4, I also exported using MPEG HD 720p 30 and MPEG HD 1080i30 default presets trying both None and Always deinterlace Field Option settings.  As before, the only combination that avoids the motion artifacts is HD 1080i30 MPEG with Field Option "None".

                                     

                                    Therefore, I see no difference between the video captured by Vegas Pro and Premiere Elements.

                                    • 15. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                      rrwwis Level 1

                                      Steve,

                                       

                                      If you want me to try with different settings, please let me know.

                                      • 16. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                        Paul_LS Level 4

                                        And could you explain in more detail what you mean by motion artifacts... I looked at the video over on Muvipix and could see no motion artifacts... some tearing in the video but no motion artifacts. And this tearing went away depandant on the media player that I used.

                                        • 17. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                          Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                                          Here is the link to the video.

                                          http://muvipix.com/cpg/displayimage.php?pos=-2973

                                           

                                          As I said on the Muvipix site, I agree with Paul. There's no indication here of any interlacing problems. The only jiggliness is during some of the large camera movements.

                                           

                                          Most like this is because the file is unusually large for computer playback. (This is also why it takes several minutes to load from the site.)

                                           

                                          Decreasing the size to a more reasonable size -- even 640x360 -- would probably solve both of these issues.

                                           

                                          Although it could also be related to the frame setting used in the camera wile the video was shot. Most camcorders include exposure settings which can decrease the blending between frames -- most visible during camera movements.

                                           

                                          Any thoughts on that, Paul?

                                          • 18. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                            Paul_LS Level 4

                                            All high definition camcorders are very sensitive to rapid panning... and they just cant handle it like standard definition... this is made worse by the rolling shutter effect in CMOS sensors... used for all consumer cams including the HV30. Basically in cmos sensors during capture the sensor is exposed over time rather than in a CCDs where the sensor is totally exposed during the frame capture. If the camera is moved rapidly during the sensor exposure with time different parts of the sensor will capture slightly different scenes.. giving a smearing effect. Although I dont think we are seeing much of that here.

                                            • 19. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                              A.T. Romano Level 7

                                              Paul,

                                               

                                              The user has used the term motion artifacts to describe his issue. You say that you do not see the motion artifacts, but do acknowledge some tearing. Could you describe what you mean by tearing? Could you point out where in the video you see this tearing?

                                               

                                              I have looked at the video. I did not see motion artifacts that might be expected with interlaced video and motion (fast or slow) and the fields time lapse.

                                              But, I do see the following and wonder if this is what you are calling tearing.....

                                              1. This is seen ONLY in the video with the Always Deinterlace Option, not when None was used.....

                                              Toward the end of the video, the shot picks up a man in the first row with his camera dangling from its holder. There is one fleeting moment when the camera image looks "blurred". And, where the girl is shown with her hands clapping and approaching the bar, the end of that segment looks a little blurred. These are the only two "irregularies" that I can pick up on.

                                               

                                              I have based my observations on playback of the uploaded video with Quicktime and GOM player. Windows Media Player does not play this video for me. The GOM player gives a smoother playback here, but is not flawless. I also viewed the uploaded video with Premiere Elements 4 with a project preset of HD 720p and could not get decent playback unless I rendered the Timeline first. I also experimented with the playback settings there. I would agree that video player is a major consideration, but...still there appears to be gaps in the theory as to cause and effect.

                                               

                                              Why is the route with HD1080i to HD1080i flawless and the route to 720p flawed? My computer system has limited resources, and it is not possible for me to get too deeply into editing AVCHD and HDV. So, I would ask, could we invoke CPU and RAM and video card differences/influences for the varied observations on what is happening or not happening.

                                               

                                              Since we all have apparently seen the video, would it be possible for all of us to define the location and the nature of what we are naming as motion artifacts or tearing or something else and specify the player where these observations are made?

                                               

                                              ATR

                                              • 20. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                                Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                                                I don't know if I can handle how this forum keeps putting every post in a narrower column!

                                                • 21. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                                  Paul_LS Level 4

                                                  By tearing I mean horizontal lines across a small section of the screen for a fraction of a second. Although this is down to the Media Player used not motion artifacts.

                                                  I tried to pick up the two points you mentionATR... but couldn't see them. Probably my eyes are wrecked... too much staring at the computer screen

                                                  • 22. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                    Maybe it's some sort of "health initiative?"

                                                     

                                                    Super-size me Steve!

                                                     

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    Hunt

                                                    • 23. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                                      Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                                                      I vote we move this discussion over to another forum -- like Muvipix.com --where we can sort through the details. I can't work with these ever-narrowing columns of text!

                                                      • 24. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                                        Qwiggalo Level 1

                                                        There are no artifacts within the video, just artifacts when you render the video with your media players, my computer renders this video fine and there are no artifacts.

                                                         

                                                        The end, upload it to youtube.

                                                        • 25. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                                          rrwwis Level 1

                                                          I am not sure what the motion problem that I am experiencing should be called--artifact, tearing or what?   Also, I would like to know which media player eliminates the problem.  I am using Power DVD, Nero and Quicktime and I see the same motion problem in all three.

                                                           

                                                          It has been suggested that decreasing the size to 640x360 would probably solve the problem.  The opposite is true for me.  Increasing the resolution to 1440x1080 completely eliminates the motion problem.

                                                           

                                                          In order to assess the problem on the video that I uploaded to Muvipix, could I suggest that we use as a reference the man in the grey tee shirt that rises in the far corner of the building.  With this 720p video, this man's face is blurred beyond recognition when the camera is panning or moving.  However, when I produce a 1080i30 video from the same PE4 timeline and the same Field Option setting (None), I get a video where this man's face is clear at all times.  Also, if I produce a DVD or Blueray disk using PE4 Share from the same timeline, this man's face remains clear during playback.

                                                           

                                                          I would like you to see the excellent quality 1080i30 test video that I can produce with PE4 so you can see the difference.  Can I upload a 30MB m2t file to the Muvipix Gallery and would you be able to play it?

                                                           

                                                          Thank you for your continued interest in solving this problem.

                                                           

                                                          P.S.  Do you want me to post this message on the Muvipix site?

                                                          • 27. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                                            Paul_LS Level 4

                                                            Well I played it in PowerDVD 9 and Windows Media Player and kept an eye on the dude in grey... for me it is clearer in Windows Media Player. In PowerDVD it is a little unclear, however, dont forget you are dropping the frame size significantely and any degradation in clarity will be much worse when panning. I'm wondering if you are just expecting too much from the lower resolution.

                                                            • 28. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                                              A.T. Romano Level 7

                                                              rrwwis

                                                               

                                                              I will be back later with some additional observations.

                                                               

                                                              For now, have you tried the GOM Player (it is a free download)

                                                              http://www.gomlab.com/eng/GMP_download.html

                                                               

                                                              I am trying to keep this post short to avoid giving SG

                                                              clostrophobia and having him bump this thread over to other places.

                                                               

                                                              ATR

                                                              • 29. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                                                A.T. Romano Level 7

                                                                rrwwis

                                                                 

                                                                Quick add on....

                                                                In keeping with  Qwiggalo's thoughts,  in spite of what

                                                                you thought that your 720p looked like on your computer,

                                                                have you tried uploading it to YouTube to see what it looks like

                                                                there? Can't that we done on a private (non share) route so that

                                                                you can get a sneak YouTube preview?

                                                                 

                                                                ATR

                                                                • 30. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                                                  rrwwis Level 1

                                                                  If the degradation in clarity is due to lower resolution (1080->720), then why is the grey dude's face clear when playing back on DVD which is 480i resolution?

                                                                  • 31. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                                                    rrwwis Level 1

                                                                    I downloaded and installed the GOM player as you suggested.  When playing the 720p videos, I did not see any improvement compared to other players.

                                                                     

                                                                    Tonight I did a little study comparing video playback quality by various media players primarily considering degradation due to motion which is the issue being addressed in this thread.  I was surprised to find that only the Power DVD player produced very good playback of my HD 1080i video.  Also, the playback quality of the DVD by Power DVD and Windows Media Player was superior to all playbacks of 720p files.  I have attached a jpg file showing these results in tabular form.

                                                                     

                                                                    It continues to disappoint me that I cannot produce a 720p video that is a least as good as DVD when motion is involved.

                                                                    • 32. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                                                      the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                                      Thank you for your efforts and for reporting.

                                                                       

                                                                      Good luck in the search for the elusive 720p solution.

                                                                       

                                                                      Hunt

                                                                      • 33. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                                                        Paul_LS Level 4

                                                                        And also as well as reducing resolution you are deinterlacing to get your progressive export... so effectively throwing away half the information. Again this will impact the clarity especially during panning. Your 480i is still interlaced and may perform better under panning.

                                                                        • 34. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                                                          rrwwis Level 1

                                                                          As you suggested, I have uploaded a video to YouTube to see how it looked.  It was exported as a 720p Quicktime mov file using the John Cloudman custom settings.  You can access it at : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2E7ikc38bY.    On YouTube, I see the same motion effects that we have been discussing.  Would you say that this is about the best that I can expect for HD on YouTube?

                                                                          • 35. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                                                            Paul_LS Level 4

                                                                            A very nice video... and what placid animals.

                                                                             

                                                                            I guess when YouTube recompress it it will again lose some quality, and I guess this is why you want to start off with the best quality you can achieve. Looked pretty good to me though. Have you tried Vimeo?... from what I understand the quality is better on there.

                                                                            • 36. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                                                              A.T. Romano Level 7

                                                                              rrwwis

                                                                               

                                                                              That is one fine video that you have uploaded to YouTube. I just watched it. I found it loaded very slowly on my computer, but it was worth the wait. I did not see one "motion artifact" or "blur" or any distorted areas in the video/audio playback. And, there was plenty of opportunitity for that to happening, the spinning wheel, etc. I half expected all those many bar like fixtures in the show area to bounce around. They did not. They showed true and clear. So, I am not sure what you are seeing. Have you looked at your work on anyone else's computer?

                                                                               

                                                                              There were some scenes in the beginning of the video that were not as sharp as those later on. But, I think that was due to your shooting under varied lighting conditions.


                                                                              I do not know if you should spend any more time on this video. I think that you succeeded in producing a good video and should move on.

                                                                               

                                                                              Good Job. Please keep me updated on your progress.

                                                                               

                                                                              ATR

                                                                              • 37. Re: How to render at 1280x720 and avoid motion artifacts?
                                                                                rrwwis Level 1

                                                                                Thank you for the favorable comments on the video that I uploaded to YouTube   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2E7ikc38bY.  Maybe you are not as sensitive to the motion effects as I am.  In HD mode, I still see a troubling amount of jerkiness and blurring during panning and Ken Burns effects.  After all of our discussion, it appears that this is the best that I can do with 720p video at this time.

                                                                                 

                                                                                I am pleased that I am able to produce very good quality 1080i video using Premiere Elements that DOES NOT have these motion effects when played back with Power DVD.  With my HV30 HDV video captured to a 1080i30 project, the Field Options must be set to "None".  The video remains clear during panning and Ken Burns.  Also I can burn DVD and BD discs without significant motion problems using Premiere Elements.

                                                                                 

                                                                                Although I didn't find the hoped for solution to producing 720p video without motion problems, I want to sincerely thank everyone for the helpful comments during this discussion.  You have helped me understand the issues and limitations in producing 720p video at the present time.

                                                                                 

                                                                                Bob