16 Replies Latest reply on Jun 27, 2009 8:58 PM by Ramón G Castañeda

    Source profiles

    Printer_Rick Level 4

      Should input RGB device profiles (camera, scanner) be embedded and used as a source space, for conversion to CMYK? Or converted to another RGB space (such as Adobe RGB), then converted to CMYK? I don't see where 2 conversions are beneficial, but I could be wrong...

        • 1. Re: Source profiles
          Lou Dina Level 3

          Rick,

           

          I assume you are shooting jpg files with your camera.  If you set your camera to sRGB, Adobe RGB, etc, then that tag should be attached to the JPG file when it is saved to your storage card.  So, in that case, yes, you would honor the tag when opening it in Photoshop.  It is the "combination" or RGB numbers and a valid ICC profile that nails down what colors you have.  So, if you just want to move to CMYK without doing any editing, there is no reason to convert to another flavor of RGB first.  Just leave it as source, then convert to CMYK using whatever CMYK profile and rendering intent you need.

           

          Two conversions are not beneficial in this case.  There is always some minor rounding error when converting from one profile to another.  If you have a 16 bit original file, it is essentially immaterial.  Even 8 bit files will rarely show much or any visible difference.

           

          Lou

          • 2. Re: Source profiles
            Printer_Rick Level 4

            Thanks Lou, I'd like your opinion on one more thing. If a change in color appearance is a user's intent, is assigning a new source profile to an image ever a valid option?

            • 3. Re: Source profiles
              Lou Dina Level 3

              Rick, "normally" (99% of the time) you want to honor the embedded profile to preserve the colors.  There are a few situations where you might choose to stray from that path.

               

              1.  Your file either does not have an embedded profile tag (what we call mystery meat), or it may be improperly tagged (usually by someone who mucked with the color settings before you).  In this case, you can try assigning a different profile to see if that renders colors more accurately.  For example, someone may have accidentally tagged an Adobe RGB file with sRGB, in which case, it will look flat and unsaturated.  By assigning Adobe RGB again, your colors will jump back to life.  Assigning does NOT change the numbers in the file.  It merely interprets those numbers differently.

               

              2.  Let's say you have a JPG file that is properly tagged as sRGB, but looks dark and is not very saturated.  You can try Assigning different RGB profiles.  For example, if you assign ProPhoto RGB, the image will be come lighter (because ProPhoto has a gamma of 1.8, whereas sRGB has a gamma of 2.2), and the colors will also go from flat to very saturated.  If you Assigned Adobe RGB to your sRGB file, the overall brightness will remain unchanged since both are 2.2 gamma spaces, but Adobe RGB is a larger space and will intrepret the colors as more saturated.  So, you can do these types of things if it improves the image and the original tag looks like crap.  Of course, you can do many of these corrections with curves, levels, Hue/Saturation, etc.  If your original is tagged AdobeRGB and you want to tone down the color saturation somewhat, you can Assign sRGB.

               

              So, there are some situations where assigning a different profile can be helpful.  But normally, you want to honor the profile that is embedded in your file.  Of course, if you need to move to CMYK, you need to convert to whatever CMYK profile you need, based on the output device.  BTW, you cannot Assign a CMYK profile to an RGB file.  Assigning only works in the same color mode (ie, RGB to RGB, CMYK to CMYK).

               

              Lou

              • 4. Re: Source profiles
                Printer_Rick Level 4

                Lou,

                 

                Thanks. I wish you would jump in on my discussion "Assigning Profiles vs. Converting to Profile" in Photoshop Mac

                 

                PS. You may not have time to check it out. But if you do please read it all. Be forewarned It is a lot to read. I made incorrect assumptions about display gamma in first post, but other than that I think I haven't strayed too far from the truth

                 

                This thread is actually a result of that discussion in Photoshop forum. Again thanks

                • 5. Re: Source profiles
                  Lou Dina Level 3

                  Sorry Rick, but I have big computer problems at the moment.  I have little time for anything else.

                   

                  Lou

                  • 6. Re: Source profiles
                    Rick McCleary Level 3

                    Lou Dina wrote:

                     

                    Sorry Rick, but I have big computer problems at the moment.  I have little time for anything else.

                     

                    Lou

                    What's happening, Lou?

                    • 7. Re: Source profiles
                      Lou Dina Level 3

                      Hi Rick.

                       

                      Hope all is well up there.

                       

                      My PC bit the dust and cratered.  Major Leage dead.  I had all of my important files (images, music, personal, financial, color, etc) backed up.  I decided to move to one of those "trouble free" Macs and bought a Mac Pro, dual 4-core processor, 16 GB RAM......loaded.  It has been a nightmare so far.  Crash city.  I'm not sure what is happening.  Neither is Apple or Canon.  I have spent 12-18 hours on the phone with tech support.  Anyway, after a full week of problems, (I'm talking 12 and 16 hour days, every day), I decided to write zeros on my boot drive and start all over with a clean OSX install.  That is what I am doing right now.  I never thought I'd say this, but I actually miss Windows!!

                       

                      Hopefully, a clean install will be the answer.  Diagnostics says all Mac hardware is fine.  If this fresh install doesn't solve it, I will pack it up in a box, ship it back to Apple for a full refund, and go buy an equally powerful PC for half the price.  But, I really want to make the Mac work.  It has some nice features that the PC doesn't.  If I can get it running in a stable fashion, I'll be happy.  I am guessing that my inexperience with a Mac and OSX resulted in me screwing something up.  Well, I have gone through a week of trial by fire, and I am a very fast learner, so I now am armed and ready.

                       

                      So, that is the situation.  Did you and Richard ever get the press study approved?

                       

                      Lou

                      • 8. Re: Source profiles
                        Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

                        Lou,

                         

                        Here are some Mac tips that might come in handy right now.

                         

                         

                        I still advocate Repairing Permissions (with Apple's Disk Utility) before AND after any system update or upgrade, as well as before AND after installing any software that requires an installer that asks for your password.

                         

                        I have seen software installations go sour because the installer did not find everything as and where it should be.  I have also seen software installations go bad because the installer did not clean up after itself properly and did not leave everything as and where it should be.  This is just my own personal opinion and practice based on my own observations.

                         

                        Others may disagree and that's OK. I can only base my routines and my advice to others on my own experience and conclusion. I don't pretend to know why others believe otherwise.  Note that this suggestion begins with "I still advocate…", not "Apple recommends…".

                         

                        Repairing Permissions after the fact (i. e. not immediately before and after an install) may NOT help.  Try it anyway, though.

                         

                            ====       Additionally,  if your machine does not run 24/7 so that it runs the daily, weekly and monthly Cron Scripts in the middle of the night as intended by Apple, run Cocktail (shareware) as well.

                         

                        Cron Scripts are maintenance routines designed by Apple to run on a daily, weekly and monthly basis in the middle of the night.  If you don't run them, you WILL run into trouble, sooner rather than later.

                         

                        Here's an excerpt from the Apple tech doc http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=107388  Mac OS X performs background maintenance tasks at certain times if the computer is not in sleep mode. If your computer is shut down or in sleep at the designated times, the maintenance does not occur. In that case, you may want or need to run these manually.

                         

                        Mac OS X periodically runs background tasks that, in part, remove system files that are no longer needed. This includes purging older information from log files or deleting certain temporary items. These tasks do not run if the computer is shut down or in sleep mode. If the tasks do not run, it is possible that certain log files (such as system.log) may become very large. Also, from:

                         

                        http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=106978

                         

                        The disk activity generated by find is a normal part of file system maintenance, used for tasks such as removing invisible temporary files that are used by the system. It is scheduled to occur early in the morning at 03:15 everyday, 04:30 on Saturdays, and 05:30 on the first day of each month.

                         

                        NOTE: There have been comments to the effect that Apple "fixed" this in 10.4.2 and later versions of the OS, but I have not been able to verify this to my satisfaction.  The reference in the 10.4.2 release notes are far from explicit on this subject.    Other, more reliable reports indicate that this seems to have been fixed in the current version of Leopard.   

                         

                        In any event, Repairing Permissions and/or running the Cron Scripts cannot hurt.

                         

                        If you have DiskWarrior, run it regularly too.  It can't hurt either, and it often improves stability and performance.

                        • 9. Re: Source profiles
                          Rick McCleary Level 3

                          Lou Dina wrote:

                           

                          Hi Rick.

                           

                          Hope all is well up there.

                           

                          My PC bit the dust and cratered.  Major Leage dead.  I had all of my important files (images, music, personal, financial, color, etc) backed up.  I decided to move to one of those "trouble free" Macs and bought a Mac Pro, dual 4-core processor, 16 GB RAM......loaded.  It has been a nightmare so far.  Crash city.  I'm not sure what is happening.  Neither is Apple or Canon.  I have spent 12-18 hours on the phone with tech support.  Anyway, after a full week of problems, (I'm talking 12 and 16 hour days, every day), I decided to write zeros on my boot drive and start all over with a clean OSX install.  That is what I am doing right now.  I never thought I'd say this, but I actually miss Windows!!

                           

                          Hopefully, a clean install will be the answer.  Diagnostics says all Mac hardware is fine.  If this fresh install doesn't solve it, I will pack it up in a box, ship it back to Apple for a full refund, and go buy an equally powerful PC for half the price.  But, I really want to make the Mac work.  It has some nice features that the PC doesn't.  If I can get it running in a stable fashion, I'll be happy.  I am guessing that my inexperience with a Mac and OSX resulted in me screwing something up.  Well, I have gone through a week of trial by fire, and I am a very fast learner, so I now am armed and ready.

                           

                          So, that is the situation.  Did you and Richard ever get the press study approved?

                           

                          Lou

                          Oh, man, Lou. I'm sorry you're having such a hard time with your new machine. That sucks.

                           

                          As I'm sure you already know, it's some sort of anomoly that's screwing you up. Millions of Mac users (myself included) can testify to the rock-solid elegance of the platform. I can't offer any direct advice other than to encourage you not to give up on it altogether. Actually, the one piece of advice is to not tinker with the installed system files. (I'm a hopeless tinkerer, and managed to completely hose a machine running OSX several years ago when I tinkered a little too much.) They're all there for a reason - and it's been very well thought out by the Apple folks in Cupertino.

                           

                          I assume you've checked all the basics -

                          - Remove all RAM and run with the minimum, then add in one RAM module at a time.

                          - Double-check that RAM is seated tightly.

                          - Remove all peripherals and run, then add in one at a time.

                          - Etc, etc

                           

                          Good luck with the write-zeros and the re-install. That should work unless there's a hardware problem - like a bad motherboard. (It happens.)

                           

                          We're waiting to hear back on the press study. It's summer, so everything' running slow up there. I expect some action as fall approaches. I'll keep you posted.

                           

                          Rick

                          • 10. Re: Source profiles
                            Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

                            Lou,

                             

                            Also, be advised that the software tests sometimes miss RAM errors that trip Photoshop.  Photoshop is the ultimate RAM test.

                             

                            Apple is as susceptible to shipping bad RAM on a rare occasion as any other vendor.

                             

                            What you are doing now is very sensible.  Whenever I get a new Mac, the first thing I do is to open it up, make sure all RAM modules are sitting properly in their slots, check all internal and external cable connections, wipe the hard drive and write it to zeros (yes, it takes a while), then install the OS from the original DVD, Repair Permissions with Apple's Disk Utility, apply the latest Apple Combo update to bring the OS to the current version, Repair Permissions again, then install applications from the original media, Repairing Permissions before AND after each installation.

                             

                            Watch out for problem fonts, either corrupted, poorly constructed or duplicate fonts.  A single problem font can bring the Mac crashing down even when you are not using that particular font in your document.

                             

                            FontAgent Pro (FAP) is the best font manager for the Mac and is excellent at ferreting out problem fonts.  There's a fully functional 30-day demo available.

                             

                            DiskWarrior is good to have in case a hard drive crashes so badly that it won't even mount.  It fixes Directory issues and it has saved my assets on at least two occasions.

                            • 11. Re: Source profiles
                              Lou Dina Level 3

                              Ramon,

                               

                              Thank you for all your suggestions.  I am bleary-eyed at the moment.  It has been a long couple of weeks and I am basically fried.  I'd go well with a good Cabernet Sagivnon.  I'll check out FontAgentPro and Disk Warrior.  I need a warrior on my side it seems. BTW, I am running Repair Permissions every other breath.

                               

                              Rick (McCleary...there's another Rick on this thread, whose post I hijacked....Sorry Rick), I appreciate your suggestions too.  I have not removed memory chips, etc, but I have run the diagnostics.  If things don't improve, I will definitely try that.  My guess is that I screwed the OS up myself.  I am quite capable and conversant on a PC after 29 years, but the Mac was a whole new language when I got it a week ago.  Now, "I speaka da language a lotta betta".  Trial by fire will do that.  Wow....what an indoctrination.  It will probably be for the best in the long run.

                               

                              BTW, how the hell do I go to the beginning and end of a line in text mode?  It seems to be a hit and miss proposition on the Mac.  In Windows, you hit the END key and you went to the end of the line...periond.  HOME took you to the beginning of the line.  I'm sure it is easy, but I need the secret decoder ring!

                               

                              Lou

                              • 12. Re: Source profiles
                                Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

                                Lou Dina wrote:

                                 

                                BTW, how the hell do I go to the beginning and end of a line in text mode?

                                 

                                 

                                In which application, Lou?

                                • 13. Re: Source profiles
                                  Lou Dina Level 3

                                  BTW, how the hell do I go to the beginning and end of a line in text mode?  It seems to be a hit and miss proposition on the Mac.  In Windows, you hit the END key and you went to the end of the line...periond.  HOME took you to the beginning of the line.  I'm sure it is easy, but I need the secret decoder ring!

                                   

                                  In which application, Lou?

                                   

                                  Ramon,

                                   

                                  Hmmmm......it seems to me it varies from one application to the next.  Opt with left and right arrow seems to take me to the beginning and end of the next word fairly consistently.  Sometimes Cmd with right and left arrow takes to the beginning and end of the line.  Sometimes Ctrl.  Home and End seem to take me to the beginning and end of a document.

                                   

                                  Programs I am typically using:  typing or editing emails in Gmail (web based), Firefox navigation inside text on web pages, TextEdit, Pages, etc.  Doesn't seem there is any consistency, and sometimes I cannot find any key combination that takes me to the beginning or end of the existing line.  In Windows it is simply Home or End.  I hope I don't have to use different combos from one application to the next.

                                   

                                  Lou

                                  • 14. Re: Source profiles
                                    Rick McCleary Level 3

                                    Lou Dina wrote:

                                     

                                    Now, "I speaka da language a lotta betta".  Trial by fire will do that.  Wow....what an indoctrination.  It will probably be for the best in the long run.

                                    It's like buying a new pair of shoes. Blisters for the first few days, then you wonder how you ever got along with those old ones.

                                    • 15. Re: Source profiles
                                      Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

                                      Lou,

                                       

                                      Yes, that behavior is variable and application specific.

                                       

                                      In most Mac programs, Home takes you to the very beginning of the page, and End takes you to the very bottom.

                                       

                                      MS Word uses Command+arrow to move you the beginning or end of the line.

                                      • 16. Re: Source profiles
                                        Ramón G Castañeda Level 4

                                        In the context of the original post in this thread, I would urge interested parties to read this recent post by MO in a another thread:

                                         

                                        http://forums.adobe.com/message/2070772#2070772