11 Replies Latest reply on Sep 19, 2008 6:25 AM by Newsgroup_User

    Ethics problem

    Dana Sutton
      Copy of what I just posted on the Mac Rumors forum (there are a LOT of other postings to the same effect): I can't speak about the other products in the CS line, but I've been using the Dreamweaver CS4 beta for a couple of months, and I have to agree that it only can described as a maintenance upgrade. What bothers me is Adobe's severe ethics problem. CS3 is very buggy, CS4 does manage to squash some (although not all) of these. So it lookslike Adobe has been aware of these problems and has (after eighteen months) taken steps to fix them. As an end user, I assume that the cost of maintenance upgrades is rolled into the purchase price of the software I purchase, so that I have a right to expect the manufacturer to exercise "due diligence" in squashing bugs promptly with one or more maintenance upgrades. But Adobe has never -- repeat, never -- issued any maintenance upgrade for Dreamweaver CS3, essentially they are using the addition of a small number of features of questionable value as a pretext for charging a hefty sum of money for an incredibly belated one. I hope their customer base can collectively let them know that this is an unacceptable business practice.
        • 1. Re: Ethics problem
          Level 7
          OK... as of now, at the end of the thread...

          So, some basic questions:

          Did you find that Macromedia addressed bugs better and faster in a dot
          release?

          Or is it that Adobe is not addressing the issues?

          The reason i ask is, partly the fact, that there are a lot of complaints on
          the Illustrator forum, as well, that have not been addressed by a bug fix.

          As Dana maintains, if a paid-for software is buggy then the seller is duty
          bound to fix the bugs and not address them in a paid for-upgrade. Feature
          requests and new features are a different issue. We're talking just bugs.

          More than anything else, this has probably been - judging by the amount of
          posts - the buggiest installation of an Adobe product. And, i'm talking
          across the board as far as the Designer series is concerned. People have had
          problems installing CS3 design suite as well as individual programs from
          there.

          If Adobe support or designers / programmers do not frequent this forum, they
          b****y well should. How else would they be able to stay in touch with
          reality? And, in this vein, what is really frightening is the lack of help
          from Adobe when they know there are issues. Sure, they may say, only a 100
          posts. We've sold millions. But how many more don't know where to go? And
          just switch to another Suite? For design /illustration, a lot of people feel
          CorelDraw is far better than Illustrator... and the suite is far cheaper.
          Yes, it's a DW forum, but i think the problem is symptomatic. It's beginning
          to look like Adobe just doesn't care....

          Cheers,

          JJ



          • 2. Re: Ethics problem
            Dana Sutton Level 1
            JJ:

            Again, as I said in my OP, I can only testify to Dreamweaver, but yes, Macromedia typically did issue at least one dot release for every version. They never managed to squash each and every bug -- far from it -- but at least they did make a good faith attempt to improve the product. Maybe somewhere on the Web you can find detailed information both for Dreamweaver and their other software, I have no idea. CS3 is the only version of Dreamweaver for which no dot release has ever been published, beyond a couple of fixes for localized foreign language versions. And of course, at the risk of pointing out the obvious, potential purchasers of CS4 need to bear in mind that Adobe can't be counted on to fix whatever potential problems may surface in it (you'd just have to wait to purchase the inevitable CS5 and hope they are fixed in it). If this has a chilling effect on potential purchasers of CS4, well, that's a self-created problem for Adobe, isn't it?
            • 3. Re: Ethics problem
              Level 7
              Dana Sutton wrote:
              > Again, as I said in my OP, I can only testify to Dreamweaver, but yes,
              > Macromedia typically did issue at least one dot release for every version. They
              > never managed to squash each and every bug -- far from it -- but at least they
              > did make a good faith attempt to improve the product. Maybe somewhere on the
              > Web you can find detailed information both for Dreamweaver and their other
              > software, I have no idea. CS3 is the only version of Dreamweaver for which no
              > dot release has ever been published, beyond a couple of fixes for localized
              > foreign language versions.

              You can find details of all Dreamweaver updaters here:

              http://www.adobe.com/support/dreamweaver/downloads_updaters.html

              A major difference between Dreamweaver and the original Adobe programs
              is that the original Adobe programs get automatic updates from the Adobe
              Updater. For Dreamweaver, it has always been a case of going to the
              Macromedia/Adobe site to download the updater yourself.

              The fact that there has been no updater for the English version of
              Dreamweaver CS3 would be significant if there were serious bugs that
              corrupt your work or prevent the software from working as expected.
              However, I've seen only vague complaints about "general bugginess" and
              dissatisfaction that no updater has been released.

              Have you reported the bugs that prevent you from working? Or is this
              just a general moan?

              --
              David Powers, Adobe Community Expert
              Author, "The Essential Guide to Dreamweaver CS3" (friends of ED)
              Author, "PHP Solutions" (friends of ED)
              http://foundationphp.com/
              • 4. Re: Ethics problem
                Dana Sutton Level 1
                "Have you reported the bugs that prevent you from working? Or is this just a general moan?"

                Well, here are two. Please note I have a Mac, these problems may or may not be reproducable on a PC. 1.) The type font on a window will suddenly and unpredictably change to something else. To retrieve the proper font you have to close/reopen the window. 2.) Dreamweaver will freeze during a cut/paste operation. You have to do a force quit to get out of the frozen program (losing all the data you entered since your last save). Then, if you are lucky, you can simply re-launch it. If you're not so lucky, it will hang while trying to relaunch and the only to get it back is to reboot. I encountered and reported these bugs (and more) within days of purchasing CS3 and I was an early purchaser. So let's say it's been eighteen months since I filed these reports. And, yes, since these interrupt my workflow and one of them can cost me data as well as time, I do regard them as serious. (Note - both problems are largely abated on CS4, which shows that Adobe damn well knows about them and took steps to fix them in CS4 --but didn't bother to address them in a bugfix upgrade).

                • 5. Re: Ethics problem
                  Level 7
                  > Have you reported the bugs that prevent you from working? Or is this
                  > just a general moan?

                  Dooza posted the following re: CS3 bugs earlier in this thread:

                  "The broken command server behaviour. I have to manually code my stored
                  procedure calls. I can use Recordsets, but to get return values I have
                  to manually code it."

                  Is there a fix for this?

                  --
                  Regards

                  John Waller
                  • 6. Re: Ethics problem
                    Level 7
                    Here's a problem with bugs - you have to be able to reproduce them to begin
                    to try to fix them. I have not seen either of these bugs on my Mac copy of
                    CS3. Can you give me the exact steps to try to produce them?

                    --
                    Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                    Adobe Community Expert
                    (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
                    ==================
                    http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                    http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                    ==================


                    "Dana Sutton" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                    news:gautcb$k9t$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                    > "Have you reported the bugs that prevent you from working? Or is this just
                    > a
                    > general moan?"
                    >
                    > Well, here are two. Please note I have a Mac, these problems may or may
                    > not be
                    > reproducable on a PC. 1.) The type font on a window will suddenly and
                    > unpredictably change to something else. To retrieve the proper font you
                    > have to
                    > close/reopen the window. 2.) Dreamweaver will freeze during a cut/paste
                    > operation. You have to do a force quit to get out of the frozen program
                    > (losing
                    > all the data you entered since your last save). Then, if you are lucky,
                    > you can
                    > simply re-launch it. If you're not so lucky, it will hang while trying to
                    > relaunch and the only to get it back is to reboot. I encountered and
                    > reported
                    > these bugs (and more) within days of purchasing CS3 and I was an early
                    > purchaser. So let's say it's been eighteen months since I filed these
                    > reports.
                    > And, yes, since these interrupt my workflow and one of them can cost me
                    > data as
                    > well as time, I do regard them as serious. (Note - both problems are
                    > largely
                    > abated on CS4, which shows that Adobe damn well knows about them and took
                    > steps
                    > to fix them in CS4 --but didn't bother to address them in a bugfix
                    > upgrade).
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    • 7. Re: Ethics problem
                      Level 7
                      John Waller wrote:
                      > "The broken command server behaviour. I have to manually code my stored
                      > procedure calls. I can use Recordsets, but to get return values I have
                      > to manually code it."
                      >
                      > Is there a fix for this?

                      Not that I know of; and I don't think it has been fixed in CS4. It's
                      something that affects the ASP server model only. I don't use ASP, so
                      it's not an issue that affects me. That doesn't mean it's not something
                      that should be fixed if it's a bug.

                      To the best of my knowledge, the problem with commands arose when the
                      Dreamweaver 8.0.2 updater was released. The 8.0.2 updater addressed the
                      serious issue of SQL injection, but the fix for that resulted in broken
                      commands. I don't know why it hasn't been fixed.

                      --
                      David Powers, Adobe Community Expert
                      Author, "The Essential Guide to Dreamweaver CS3" (friends of ED)
                      Author, "PHP Solutions" (friends of ED)
                      http://foundationphp.com/
                      • 8. Re: Ethics problem
                        Level 7
                        Dana Sutton wrote:
                        > I encountered and reported
                        > these bugs (and more) within days of purchasing CS3 and I was an early
                        > purchaser. So let's say it's been eighteen months since I filed these reports.

                        Fair enough. If you reported them directly to Adobe, I can understand
                        why you're unhappy they haven't been fixed. A lot of people just seem to
                        ***** in general terms about bugginess, but never bother to submit bug
                        reports.

                        As Murray says, it's impossible to fix bugs unless the problem can be
                        reproduced in a consistent manner. I test Dreamweaver on a Mac, but
                        don't use it often enough to have encountered the problems you describe.
                        They're certainly not problems I have come across in the Windows
                        version, which I usually have running for many hours every day.

                        I have reported a lot of bugs to the Dreamweaver team over the past few
                        years. The ones that get fixed are those where I can say, "Do A, B, and
                        C. Then X happens." When something unexpected happens just out of the
                        blue, it's impossible to pin down. It could be Dreamweaver's fault.
                        Equally, it could be some background activity on my computer that
                        triggers a one-off error.

                        --
                        David Powers, Adobe Community Expert
                        Author, "The Essential Guide to Dreamweaver CS3" (friends of ED)
                        Author, "PHP Solutions" (friends of ED)
                        http://foundationphp.com/
                        • 9. Re: Ethics problem
                          Level 7
                          David Powers wrote:
                          > John Waller wrote:
                          >> "The broken command server behaviour. I have to manually code my
                          >> stored procedure calls. I can use Recordsets, but to get return values
                          >> I have to manually code it."
                          >>
                          >> Is there a fix for this?
                          >
                          > Not that I know of; and I don't think it has been fixed in CS4. It's
                          > something that affects the ASP server model only. I don't use ASP, so
                          > it's not an issue that affects me. That doesn't mean it's not something
                          > that should be fixed if it's a bug.
                          >
                          > To the best of my knowledge, the problem with commands arose when the
                          > Dreamweaver 8.0.2 updater was released. The 8.0.2 updater addressed the
                          > serious issue of SQL injection, but the fix for that resulted in broken
                          > commands. I don't know why it hasn't been fixed.

                          It was working after 8.0.2, the bug appeared in CS3, as I think some
                          people go back to 8.0.2 as there work around.... I don't have 8.0.2 here
                          so can't do that, I just learn as I go to do it by hand.

                          It wasn't fixed in the public beta, but that doesn't mean its not been
                          fixed in the full release, but somehow I doubt it.

                          Dooza
                          • 10. Re: Ethics problem
                            Level 7
                            Dooza wrote:
                            > It was working after 8.0.2, the bug appeared in CS3, as I think some
                            > people go back to 8.0.2 as there work around.... I don't have 8.0.2 here
                            > so can't do that, I just learn as I go to do it by hand.

                            Sorry, I wasn't aware of that. I wonder how the bug crept into CS3? The
                            only changes I know that were made to server behaviors in that release
                            were fixes to PHP bugs introduced by 8.0.2.

                            > It wasn't fixed in the public beta, but that doesn't mean its not been
                            > fixed in the full release, but somehow I doubt it.

                            I have no idea. However, the only way it will have been fixed is if
                            someone has submitted a formal bug report to Adobe. The constant mantra
                            I hear from the development team is, "If it ain't filed, it won't be
                            fixed" (unless it's an issue that the team discovers independently).

                            --
                            David Powers, Adobe Community Expert
                            Author, "The Essential Guide to Dreamweaver CS3" (friends of ED)
                            Author, "PHP Solutions" (friends of ED)
                            http://foundationphp.com/
                            • 11. Re: Ethics problem
                              Level 7
                              David Powers wrote:
                              > Dooza wrote:
                              >> It was working after 8.0.2, the bug appeared in CS3, as I think some
                              >> people go back to 8.0.2 as there work around.... I don't have 8.0.2
                              >> here so can't do that, I just learn as I go to do it by hand.
                              >
                              > Sorry, I wasn't aware of that. I wonder how the bug crept into CS3? The
                              > only changes I know that were made to server behaviors in that release
                              > were fixes to PHP bugs introduced by 8.0.2.

                              I did wonder too...

                              >> It wasn't fixed in the public beta, but that doesn't mean its not been
                              >> fixed in the full release, but somehow I doubt it.
                              >
                              > I have no idea. However, the only way it will have been fixed is if
                              > someone has submitted a formal bug report to Adobe. The constant mantra
                              > I hear from the development team is, "If it ain't filed, it won't be
                              > fixed" (unless it's an issue that the team discovers independently).

                              Last July/August I filed the bug, and was told they were going to write
                              a tech note, and that it *may* be addressed in a future release. Thats
                              why I have championed this bug, if someone comments on it I always tell
                              them to report it to Adobe, as the more the bug appears on the list, the
                              more likely it will be addressed.

                              Dooza