11 Replies Latest reply on Oct 28, 2009 8:19 PM by TCarp

    Beginner ?: process for print and web destined logo

    TCarp Level 1

      I could benefit from some wisdom on the workflow to use for output destined for both display and print, specifically a logo.  I have CS2 and Macromedia Studio 8.

       

      The logo I built (for a local group) was done in FW and then saved as a gif for use in DW for our site.  Recently I started learning IL and ID and would like to learn a "happy path" with those applications "available" to redo the logo.  This time the intended output is both display and print and in multiple scales.

       

      If my path would be even easier and higher quality, I'd be willing to add Acrobat to the applications list.  To date I've only used Acrobat for simple document conversion.

       

      The logo graphics are almost entirely vector with a couple small silhouettes in the form of gifs.  The gifs are from the net so I'm assuming their display ppi.  (Specfically, they are all black silhouettes of a salmon and a horse.)  The logo gif is attached.

       

      Starting there, I assume the path will have all the vector stuff done in IL.  From earlier help from the IL Forum I've learned to build the vector as close the the final scale as possible and/or favor scaling down over scaling up.

       

      The silhouettes appear to be another matter.  I see I can integrate vector and rastor in IL, but what things do you do to scale for print or display output?  Since I'm assuming rastor doesn't scale like vector, it appears the path is limited by the "density" of the original image(?).

       

      Thanks

       

      Tom

        • 1. Re: Beginner ?: process for print and web destined logo
          [scott] Level 6

          Can't see your queue'd file.. but you do realize that taking images off the web for use in a logo is copyright infringement, right? You and/or the company will be liable for any claims.

          • 2. Re: Beginner ?: process for print and web destined logo
            Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

            Well, Scott has a point - just using other's people's content can get you into a boatload of trouble, even if those people may offer the content for "free" (which they mostly do for personal use, anyway, which a company logo certainly doesn't qualify for). The only clean way is to build everything from scratch. That aside, there is no ultimate perfect way to cover all bases. The common approach is to design the logo in CMYK inside AI to avoid out-of gamut issues and include special spot and process colors, if required. Likewise, any embedded images therefore should be CMYK with proper color profiling. Scaling them larger inside AI is out of the question - it's just rubbish for that sort of thing - so you'll have to scale them up in Photoshop, if need arises. Downscaling is no problem, as Save for Web and Devices offers a built-in resizing function or you can always import your AI into Photoshop and do everything there. I don't get what you are referring to by "silhouettes". AI will scale strokes automatically so theyretain apperances and Acrobat will do the same. Feel however free to convert everything to outlines and expand the output just to be safe.

             

            Mylenium

            • 3. Re: Beginner ?: process for print and web destined logo
              OneTec.Pk

              Besides the case of infringement, if you are making a demo file or practicing;

                        Scale for web and print is different. Print media is design on 300 resolution. A web page is made on 72 res. This is the difference, anything you copy from the web and put it on something to print, first of all in original size the web image on your document (dont mistake or confuse with direct picture printing or Msword) will be pea sized and if you manage to transform to it twice thrice the size of the original; the quality will be destroyed and your print be a waste.

              • 4. Re: Beginner ?: process for print and web destined logo
                Wade_Zimmerman Level 6

                No such thing *** putting infringement aside.

                 

                True this is not likely to be noticed but the Op would be happier with art that they can

                 

                1. they own

                 

                2. they have all rights to

                 

                3. it is original or purchased as from an artist or they created.

                 

                4. that is also vector so they can properly scale it

                 

                5. and they can easily change color, fill add gradients and strokes and use apart from the logo
                for other design pieces, like I have done in the past and had such items printed on a wall or as exhibit panels.

                 

                So either purchase ti as a royalty free item or purchase from an art or stock house for the purpose of using as a
                reference and do an original work of art and open up a whole new word with so many more possibilities for which you can charge a fee.

                 

                The last part is just an inherent benefit.

                 

                Scott gave you some really good insight into this, every time I tell one of my clients you can't do a thing like that they always thank me in the end and hire me to fix it. In my case they usually want to use a photograph they don't own but it is essentially the same thing.

                 

                Do the art over.

                • 5. Re: Beginner ?: process for print and web destined logo
                  JETalmage Level 6
                  on the workflow to use for output destined for both display and print, specifically a logo

                   

                  General rules:

                   

                  Design for print first, then repurpose for web, not the other way around. Print is both more demanding and more varied. You can "dumb things down" for the web anytime. But trying to work in the other direction invariably leads to unnecessary rework.

                   

                  Do not do the design work for a logo in Fireworks. Use a vector drawing program intended for print (Use FreeHand or Illustrator, since you have those.) Fireworks is RGB only. It does neither CMYK nor Spot Color. Yes, you can copy vector paths from Fireworks and paste them into FreeHand or Illustrator, but why kick against the thorns? Just create the artwork in an appropriate program to begin with.

                   

                  Never use elements just "grabbed off the web." First, there is the ownership problems others have already alerted you to. Moreover, though, a proper logo is supposed to be (among other things) unique. Unless the graphic captured off the web belongs to you or your client, it is not yours to use in anything, least of all something you are going to call a "logo." Even if it is your client's, it is probably not unique. Commercial clip art is also (by definition) not unique.

                   

                  Define the contractual terms. Make it clear what you will provide the client, what you will charge for, and what his rights are. Charge appropriately for proper identity graphcs. Fee considerations should include:

                   

                  • Quality of the design itself (i.e.; your own level of creative talent and technical skill)
                  • The work invloved in producing all the above
                  • The time spent in research and brainstorming
                  • The time spent in meetings
                  • The number of rounds of preliminary roughs entailed in achieving a final decision from the client
                  • The scope of the project (i.e.; An identity mark for a multi-national corporation has more inherent value than one for a local mom & pop store.)
                  • The scope of the rights (i.e.; Identity marks should be fully owned by the client. The client should be free and clear of any legal obligation to return to you when/if he needs edits, or to obtain/dispute usage rights. Charge accordingly for any work for which you will relinquish all ownership--which you should assume to be the case in real logo design work.)

                   

                  Disregarding the above, general procedure for your specific example:

                   

                  1. Redraw the raster images as vector paths. Make all your paths as simple and clean as possible. Do not include any special effects dependent upon application-specific features. If possible, (as it is in your example) avoid any treatments requiring rasterization and live stroke weights. Do not include any unnecessary elements. (Ex: The utterly amateurish practice of drawing white objects to "hide" portions of other objects.)

                   

                  2.  You are using five colors, so spot color is impractical for the full-color version. Use CMYK colors. Set the black elements to overprint so you don't have to build other registration traps.

                   

                  3. Convert the text elements to paths. Evaluate the results and clean up as necessary. (Ex: Union text glyphs that overlap.) Be particularly wary of the results of outlining TrueType fonts--especially cheap ones. TrueType uses quadratic Bezier curves which must be translated to cubic curves for them to even appear in most drawing programs. Many cheap TrueType fonts were initially drawn as cubic Beziers and then "automatically converted" to quadratic curves, imposing shape corruptions to which the producer is completely oblivious. When you use a drawing program to again "automatically convert" the paths, you can just as unwittingly compound the errors. (This is one reason why I would never knowingly contract with--and upon discovery would immediately "fire"--one of the far too many printing houses whose self-proclaimed "prepress experts" make it a willy-nilly routine practice to convert all text on a page to paths--a hideously amateurish lazy-man's practice often touted in this very forum as "expert" advice.)

                   

                  4. A proper logo package should include at least one version for printing in single colors. The owner will need to send files suitalble for ads in phone books, newspapers, football programs, etc., etc. So when finished, make a copy of the artwork and convert all colors to grayscale values.Don't just use some automatic grayscale conversion; use your intellignece to select appropriate and advantageous contrasts. Use 100% black for the text, so that the name doesn't look weak compared to the graphic.

                   

                  5. A proper logo package should include at least one version for printing as line art. The owner will need to send files suitable for imprinting or engraving on pens, embroidery on neckties or golf shirts, screen printing on T-shirts, embossing or foil stamping on other promotional items, vinyl-cutting or glass etching for building signs, etc., etc. Leaving the necessary value judgements up to the individual product vendor is folly; it will quickly lead to corruption and inconsistency in the treatments of the identity--antithetical to the very purpose of having a logo. So when finished, make a copy of the artwork and judiciously create a version that contains only solid black. Test this version for legibility at very small sizes.

                   

                  6. Depending upon the capabilities of the program you are using, make a copy of the color artwork as either a separate page or a separate file. Convert the colors to RGB. Again, merely relying upon an automatic conversion is often not best practice. Intelligently choose the RGB values to be used for each color. (Another common amateurish misconception; mere automated color calibration and color intent are two entirely different things.)

                   

                  7 Export the deliverable files. Use the CMYK, Spot Color, Grayscale, and Line Art files to export PDFs and/or EPSs suitable for import to current mainstream print graphics programs. Use the RGB file to export raster images for use on the web, and in Office applications.

                   

                  8. If not building a proper Style Guide for the client, at the very least prepare a simple text ReadMe file that lists all the files you provide and a brief, clearly understandable explanation of each one's purpose. Include a list specifying all the color values used, including at least CMYK, RGB, and Spot Colors. If you know of other specific uses, include color specs for those as well (ex: sign vinyl and/or embroider thread colors and/or screen printing inks).

                   

                  JET

                  • 6. Re: Beginner ?: process for print and web destined logo
                    TCarp Level 1

                    Thanks to all that responded and a special thanks to JET.  You gave me what I was looking for in my original post.  I'll mark your reply as the solution.

                     

                    A quick comment on the responses on proprietary info.  I'm not insensitive to the issue having been an executive responsible for information resource management.  Without any intent to argue your points, perhaps some perspective may be useful.

                     

                    First, the net is the world's largest copy machine.  This puts a high premium on "marking" the sensitivity of information (including images).  One can certainly protect information by litigation but there isn't an argument I've heard yet that suggest that's the "best" way to protect intellectual property.

                     

                    Without any intent to run "under the radar", there's a practical limit to the options.  That practical limit is set by the cost/benefit of protection.

                     

                    All you have to do is a Google Images search and you'll find everything from simple graphics to highly marked objects.  I understand the propriety nature of complex graphics and photos, which are often marked, but there's no way I can understand the practical way in which the rest is policed (other than good consulting).

                     

                    No argument.  Just observations.

                     

                    Tom

                    • 7. Re: Beginner ?: process for print and web destined logo
                      Isolder Level 2
                      3. Convert the text elements to paths. Evaluate the results and clean up as necessary. (Ex: Union text glyphs that overlap.) Be particularly wary of the results of outlining TrueType fonts--especially cheap ones. TrueType uses quadratic Bezier curves which must be translated to cubic curves for them to even appear in most drawing programs. Many cheap TrueType fonts were initially drawn as cubic Beziers and then "automatically converted" to quadratic curves, imposing shape corruptions to which the producer is completely oblivious. When you use a drawing program to again "automatically convert" the paths, you can just as unwittingly compound the errors. (This is one reason why I would never knowingly contract with--and upon discovery would immediately "fire"--one of the far too many printing houses whose self-proclaimed "prepress experts" make it a willy-nilly routine practice to convert all text on a page to paths--a hideously amateurish lazy-man's practice often touted in this very forum as "expert" advice.)

                       


                      I am a little confused by this step. At first it looks like you're saying to convert the text to paths and clean up as necessary. Then it looks like you're saying this is bad practice for a printing house to do this? Where did I go wrong?

                      • 8. Re: Beginner ?: process for print and web destined logo
                        [scott] Level 6

                        Tom,

                         

                        Your response can be boiled down to essentially.."If they don't catch me, where's the harm?" or.. "They failed to put a mark on the image, so it must be okay."

                         

                        Truth is everything you see on the internet is copyrighted, marked or otherwise. Relying on a mark is fool-hearty.

                         

                        Much the same way you would not open a magazine, scan a page, then use that scan in your work.. you should not be repurposing images from the web that are not yours. If not for legal reasons, then for ethical ones if you are a professional in a field which relies upon intellectual property.

                        • 9. Re: Beginner ?: process for print and web destined logo
                          JETalmage Level 6

                          Agree completely with Scott on this (well, other than his spelling of fool-hardy). ;-)

                           

                          What part of my third paragraph did you not understand, Tom?

                           

                          Your analogy of "the worlds biggest copy machine" is actually antithetical to your ill-founded excuse-making. Before the web, there was nothing at all difficult about, say, "sharing" copies of software. Or copying a Tom Clancy novel on a Xerox machine. Or duping a music casette. Or cheating on a test.

                           

                          In fact, it's not that difficult to go slash someone's tires without getting caught, either.

                           

                          If you think this "brave new world" of communcation via a network somehow obviates copyright law, I've got some stories to tell you.

                           

                          It amazes me that so many individuals nowadays trot out the ease of unethical behavior via the web as if it were some kind of moral "higher ground" or new-world "right," like "freedom of theft." (And no, I'm not saying you did this in your post.)

                           

                          In every case and every age, it's a matter of personal integrity, caught or not.

                           

                          Especially (as if one should even have to invoke "especially" on such a subject) in the case of a logo, of all things! Your logo is supposed to be your mark. Your cornerstone. Your signature. Your identity. A symbol of your integrity.

                           

                          But man is never so creative as when engaged in self-justification. (I plagarized that, by the way, and didn't need the internet to do it.)

                           

                          JET

                          • 10. Re: Beginner ?: process for print and web destined logo
                            JETalmage Level 6

                            I don't know why you would be confused, Isolder.

                             

                            First, the subject is about converting text to paths in a logo design. There are certainly good and appropriate reasons for drawing programs to have commands for accessing the outlines of text characters. I'm certainly not saying such commands should never be used. I'm saying they should be used appropriately. A logo design is the quintessential case-in-point. How are you going to make a proper ligature, for example, without converting the text to paths? How would such a ligature be cut on a sign vinyl machine without job-wrecking crosscuts?

                             

                            Second, my admonition about care when using "converted" outlines of cheap fonts is apropos. It is practical to take such care when text has been converted to paths appropriately (i.e.; text used as a graphic element).

                             

                            Third, my comment about inappropriate conversion of text was parenthetical and clearly addresses the runaway practice of indiscriminately converting all text on a page (even ordinary body text) to paths.

                             

                            JET

                            • 11. Re: Beginner ?: process for print and web destined logo
                              TCarp Level 1

                              OK, I give.  You're absolutely correct that I sound like "just don't get caught".  Not my intent.