21 Replies Latest reply on Jul 12, 2009 8:23 AM by Jim_Simon

    What can I expect with 4.1

    VideoCrafters Level 1
      I want to build a fast computer - i7 with 12 gig of ram... fast drives...etc.
      I will shoot HMC150 AVCHD and transcode to NeoScene.
      I'm wondering about rendering...
      Will I be able to add a few filters such as Color Balance, Picture in Picture, Title without having to render? I realize I can't really stact the filters/layers up like crazy, but will I be able to add a few basic filters without rendering.

       

      I will be monitoring from a MXO2 mini.

       

      I currently have a RTX-100 and don't have to render much.

       

      Thanks,

       

      Mickey
        • 1. Re: What can I expect with 4.1
          Curt Wrigley Level 4

          Depends what you mean by "dont have to render".  If you mean full frame rate smooth preview playback; No.

          If you mean a reduced frame rate preview; maybe.

           

          Are you stuck with avchd as the source?  Its very intensive to edit ergo will give you just about the worst performance of a souce format.

           

          Note the matrox x cards are not yet functioning properly with cs4.

          • 2. Re: What can I expect with 4.1
            Powered by Design Level 4

            I dont have AVCHD but know from reading that it is hard to edit and allot of cameras have it now.

             

            My question is how much of a editing machine would you have to have to play it in real time ?

             

            If he is building a new machine maybe he could build a better unit.

             

            Just wondering.

             

            Please give advice on building a dream PC.

             

             

            Glenn

            • 3. Re: What can I expect with 4.1
              Harm Millaard Level 7

              This may be worth the wait, for even with AVCHD material, it can deliver RT performance. Don't know when it will be available however and prices have not yet been mentioned.

               

              Look here: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1432724/next-generation-2010-superdesktops-nehale m-ex-nehalem-ep

              • 4. Re: What can I expect with 4.1
                Powered by Design Level 4

                Nice article Harm.

                 

                To only dream of a machine with all that power.

                 

                So far on my soon to be build I have:

                 

                Case:

                COOLER MASTER HAF 932

                Motherboard:

                ASUS P6T Deluxe V2 LGA 1366

                CPU:

                Intel Core i7 920 Nehalem 2.66GHz

                CPU Cooler:

                Noctua NH-U12P SE1366 120mm SSO CPU Cooler

                Operating System:

                Microsoft Windows 7 64-bit

                RAM:

                CORSAIR XMS3 12GB (6 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)

                Graphics Card:

                SAPPHIRE Toxic 100269TXSR Radeon HD 4890 1GB 256-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16

                Power Supply:

                CORSAIR CMPSU-1000HX 1000W ATX12V 2.2 / EPS12V 2.91 SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Modular Active PFC Compatible with Core i7 Power Supply

                Boot Drive:

                Western Digital VelociRaptor WD3000HLFS 300GB 10000 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive

                Hard Drives: ( 2-4 min )

                Western Digital Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drives

                Blu-ray Burner:

                Pioneer Black 8X BD-R 2X BD-RE 16X DVD+R 5X DVD-RAM 8X BD-ROM 4MB Cache SATA Internal Blu-ray Burner 8X Blu-Ray DVD Burner

                 

                Im still waiting till Windows 7 comes out.

                 

                Any changes you see I might have to make ?

                 

                 

                Thanks:  Glenn

                • 5. Re: What can I expect with 4.1
                  Harm Millaard Level 7

                  Glenn,

                   

                  It looks like a very nice system. Just two remarks. Are you talking about the XMS3 Classic RAM modules with 7-7-7-20 timings? The reason I ask is because you have opted for 1600 FSB capable memory, while the CPU only delivers a FSB of 1333. I don't know whether the CAS at 1333 speed will be 6. It may well be. On the OCZ modules I have (OCZ3P1333LV6GK), I have 6-6-6-18 timings at 1333 FSB and it may be that these might be an alternative. The second remark is the Pioneer burner. In recent (last two years) tests Pioneer has lost the lead position they have held for years to manufacturers like Samsung and LG in terms of reliability of burns. They are still more expensive than Samsung and LG. It is peanuts on the total investment, but I thought it worth mentioning.

                   

                  In case you do not have the link to my system setup available, here it is. It shows you my details:

                   

                  PCResults.jpg

                   

                  Hope this helps.

                   

                  PS. On recent retesting, my average read speed on the large array (E) was 853 MB/s, a little faster than mentioned in the picture above.

                  • 6. Re: What can I expect with 4.1
                    Powered by Design Level 4

                    Thanks Harm.

                     

                    I alrady had your setup saved in my Harm folder.  lol

                     

                    I will go back and read more on RAM and those other drives you said about.

                     

                    The Ram I was going to get was the 1600 at: 9-9-9-24

                     

                    What would be a better option for CS4

                     

                    Glenn

                    • 7. Re: What can I expect with 4.1
                      Harm Millaard Level 7

                      Have a look at the Corsair

                      TR3X6G1600C7

                      These have 7-7-7-20 timings. I just hope these are not based on Elpida Hyper chips. Corsair and OCZ have very recently stopped production of RAM modules with Elpida Hyper chips because of quality problems.

                      • 8. Re: What can I expect with 4.1
                        Powered by Design Level 4

                        Newegg doesnt sell that one in a 12GB pack.

                         

                        They have the 6GB pack for $146.99 x 2 = $293.98

                         

                        Is it better to get a pack with all (12GB 9-9-9-24)  together or two packs of (6GB 7-7-7-20) with better timing?

                         

                        Also if I get 2 packs do i need to place them in a special way so the same pack is together ?

                         

                        Cost of 12GB pack = $229.00

                         

                        $64.98 cheaper for the 9-9-9-24 pack.

                         

                        But when building a new editing system saving is great but not if it cost performance.

                         

                        What do you think the better choice is ?

                         

                         

                        Thanks:  Glenn

                        • 9. Re: What can I expect with 4.1
                          Harm Millaard Level 7

                          Glenn,

                           

                          I can't look into your wallet and I don't know your preferences. The 7-7-7-20 will be faster than the 9-9-9-24 sets. The difference will likely be less than 2-3% in performance, but the price difference is much larger. Consider that you buy this memory only once for the next couple of years and if you have a lot of memory intensive operations, like colour corrections and the like, the difference is yes/no (choose one) worth the price difference.

                           

                          I can't judge this for you. Sorry.

                          • 10. Re: What can I expect with 4.1
                            Powered by Design Level 4

                            In the long run I thing the better timing 7-7-7-20 will be the better option for me.

                             

                            I guess my only concern was not getting it in a 12GB pack.

                             

                            I had read somewhere its better to get RAM in a pack.

                             

                            If 2 packs of 6GB works fine then thats OK with me.

                             

                            If i get 2 packs does it matter how I place them in the slots ?

                             

                            Thanks:  Glenn

                            • 11. Re: What can I expect with 4.1
                              Harm Millaard Level 7

                              No, just put the three sticks from one kit in the first three slots, and the next kit in the other slots.

                              • 12. Re: What can I expect with 4.1
                                Powered by Design Level 4

                                OK Thanks, Good to know.

                                 

                                Glenn

                                • 13. Re: What can I expect with 4.1
                                  VideoCrafters Level 1

                                  I still am not hearing an answer to my question... if any one knows?

                                   

                                  Let me try again. I shoot AVCHD. Transcode to NeoScene. Place clips on the time line. Add basic color corection and a title (super)... or color correction and slow motion. Will I be able to preview that clip realtime full rez and full frame rate... or will I have to render to get that.

                                   

                                  I'm used to RTX-100 and don't really want to get back to rendering or low rez previews.

                                   

                                  Again assuming I build a fast machine: i7, 12 gb ram, fast card, fast drives,etc...

                                   

                                  Anyone know about this stuff?

                                   

                                  Thanks!

                                   

                                  Mickey

                                  • 14. Re: What can I expect with 4.1
                                    Harm Millaard Level 7

                                    Hasn't this been answered in post #1 by Curt and in post #3 by myself?

                                     

                                    If you want RT, either get a dual W5580 with 24 GB RAM and a very good raid setup, overclock this system by 30% and you may, just may get RT even though not likely, or use a format better suited for editing. Of course, with dual Nehalem-EX CPU's your troubles will be over.

                                    • 16. Re: What can I expect with 4.1
                                      Andy Urtu Level 1

                                      I have 4.1, and NeoScene.  I have a Quad Core 2.83ghz with 8GB Ram. nVidia 9600 graphics card.  3 hard drives  System  Scratch  VideoClips

                                       

                                      I just rented a HMC150 and shot a couple of hrs worth of Video at 720 60p. and 1080 60i I kept the original mts files and also converted to Cineform AVI High Quality.

                                       

                                      The native AVCHD files play bak fine, both on Draft and High quality in 4.1

                                       

                                      The cineform files play back ok on Draft (uses about 85% cpu)  but do not playback real time on high quality.

                                       

                                      The quality of the Cineform files (it up samples the chroma to 4:2:2)  is great and worth the playback hit.

                                      • 17. Re: What can I expect with 4.1
                                        Harm Millaard Level 7
                                        (it up samples the chroma to 4:2:2)

                                         

                                        You mean it just pads the info with 0's. It does not improve the image.

                                         

                                        Single stream AVCHD may play back fine, but having multiple streams (video, title, etc.) and applying some color correction and some other filters will bring that to clearly less than RT, which is the question the OP had.

                                        • 18. Re: What can I expect with 4.1
                                          Andy Urtu Level 1

                                          Actually, Cineform absolutely improves the image. You end up with a 4:2:2 10bit Intraframe file. (very similar to ProRes 4:2:2)  Jim Simon would be sooo happy.

                                           

                                          These are from a HMC150.  I shot 720 60p.  One sample is the original MTS file, the other is the Cineform AVI file.   Cineform interpolates the missing chroma.  You really notice it in the reds and oranges.  They do a great job at it.

                                           

                                          Fram Grabs, Zoomed 200%  Notice the red "sawtooth against the black.  Also the edge of the peaches.

                                          • 19. Re: What can I expect with 4.1
                                            VideoCrafters Level 1

                                            The image is great, but we are very busy runiing 2 nle's producing longer projects (dv). Rendering would kill us! I need to find something that is real time full rez. I can't imagine a workflow where every filter, every transition would need to be rendered. The RTX-100 serves us well with DV, but I am ready to move to HD using the HMC150. Maybe I need to wait a little longer...

                                             

                                            Mickey

                                            • 20. Re: What can I expect with 4.1
                                              Jim_Simon Level 8
                                              Maybe I need to wait a little longer...

                                               

                                              Or use better media.  For HD, that means DVCPRO HD or RED, with AVC-I coming soon.

                                              • 21. Re: What can I expect with 4.1
                                                Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                Jim Simon would be sooo happy.

                                                 

                                                I'm actually seeing artifacts in the Cineform version that I don't see in the original.  Overall, I think the one labeled MTS looks better - at least in that one small example.