1 2 Previous Next 48 Replies Latest reply on Aug 31, 2009 6:17 PM by Mike Ornellas

    Assign Output Intent Layer

    Printer_Rick Level 4

      I would like to know if the following is in the realm of possibility:

       

      1. Photoshop Layered RGB file

       

      2. Edit: Assign Output Intent Layer

       

      3. Choose the Output Intent profile, rendering, etc.

       

      4. A layer is created on the topmost level, and the display color changes to correspond with the Output Intent. (Similar to Proof Setup and Proof View)

       

      5. Once this is done, the normal Assign Profile is grayed out. The layered RGB profile is locked, as long as the Output Intent exists.

       

      If the file is passed on to another user, it needs to be very clear that the file has an Output Intent Layer. I would suggest the use of icons and the Output Intent profile name in the document window.

       

      There is only one Output Intent Layer allowed per file. And it is always the top most layer.

       

      Another user has always has the option to hide or discard the output intent layer if he so desires.

       

      As far as the Output Intent layer itself - the content cannot be directly edited, because no actual conversion has been performed. Think of it in the same way as an SO in a parent document, without the option to open in a separate child document. Perhaps a user could add nested adjustment layers within the Output Intent, but editing capability must go no farther than that, in order to preserve color integrity.

       

      This would be an invaluable tool. It would safeguard both the source color space and the destination color space. If one were to place the file in InDesign, InDesign should recognize the file's Output Intent layer, and convert color based on the settings in the Photoshop Output Intent layer.

        • 1. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
          Reynolds (Mark) Level 4

          Ok your layer is always…

           

          • the topmost layer  - any attempt to move it doesn't work I assume

          • there's can be only one of them per document

          • and its not editable, in any way

           

          then … why is it a LAYER at all?

           

          "add nested adjustment layers within the Output Intent" - you mean clipped adjustment layers? wouldn't that just be open to abuse, making the profile meaningless?

          • 2. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
            Printer_Rick Level 4

            Reynolds (Mark) wrote:

             

            Ok your layer is always…

             

            • the topmost layer  - any attempt to move it doesn't work I assume

            • there's can be only one of them per document

            • and its not editable, in any way

             

            then … why is it a LAYER at all?

             

            "add nested adjustment layers within the Output Intent" - you mean clipped adjustment layers? wouldn't that just be open to abuse, making the profile meaningless?

            It's a layer so you can:

             

            1. toggle visibility on an off, and this visibility is therefore saved with the file.

             

            2. Double click to edit conversion parameters if necessary

             

            3. Enable limited color control. In the case of RGB file with CMYK Output Intent, one can add CMYK adjustment layers (curves or channel mixer for example) These adjustments would be applied when the file is converted on output. Maybe the Output Intent could be like a Group layer, and adjustment layers are part of the group.

             

            Also a layer provides a place to add a color space icon, which is important. And the layer name would match the Output Intent profile name. A layer would also make the Output Intent more obvious so the next user doesn't miss it.

             

            I can't think of a more appropriate place than layers to put something like this. It's not like it's just a view option, it's much more than that.

             

            And yes any attempt to move it doesn't work, just like you can't move "Background" from the bottom...

            • 3. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
              Reynolds (Mark) Level 4

              Ok fair enough, your three points are mostly reasonable. I'm with you on the idea, but playing devils advocate…

               

              Here are some basic technical problems I need to point out -

               

              • Whats happens in your channels palette after you switch on your CMYK profile layer (or group)?

              • What happens when you try and drag a cmyk curve out of your topmost (profile) group and into the RGB part of the file?

              • Now heres the main one - surely every time you change the RGB content underneath, it would have to perform a RGB/CMYK conversion on the fly. Wouldn't this just slow things down impossibly?

               

              We are just using RGB to CMYK as a hypothesis.

               

              What is this FUNCTIONALLY providing that Smart Objects are not? (other than conversion Options) - I know that having embedded documents which you have to open and close is not as easy to work with, but as far as I can see its providing the same function precisely. Assignable conversion options, and the workability of Smart Objects - are both things I incidentally expect may improve in future versions.

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                Printer_Rick Level 4

                Reynolds (Mark) wrote:

                 

                Ok fair enough, your three points are mostly reasonable. I'm with you on the idea, but playing devils advocate…

                 

                Here are some basic technical problems I need to point out -

                 

                • Whats happens in your channels palette after you switch on your CMYK profile layer (or group)?

                 

                Still displays source channels. Remember there is no conversion

                 

                Reynolds (Mark) wrote:

                 

                 

                • What happens when you try and drag a cmyk curve out of your topmost (profile) group and into the RGB part of the file?

                 

                Can't do it.

                 

                Reynolds (Mark) wrote:

                 

                • Now heres the main one - surely every time you change the RGB content underneath, it would have to perform a RGB/CMYK conversion on the fly. Wouldn't this just slow things down impossibly?

                 

                 

                No wouldn't slow things down, no more than having proof preview enabled. Remember there is no conversion.

                 

                Reynolds (Mark) wrote:

                 

                What is this FUNCTIONALLY providing that Smart Objects are not? (other than conversion Options) - I know that having embedded documents which you have to open and close is not as easy to work with, but as far as I can see its providing the same function precisely. Assignable conversion options, and the workability of Smart Objects - are both things I incidentally expect may improve in future versions.

                This has some common ground with SOs but it is not the same thing. This addresses color integrity, as a file is passed from one user to another.

                • 5. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                  Reynolds (Mark) Level 4

                  Again all fair points, its just a visible proof setup then. Not sure how your top group CMYK adjustment layers are going to work without any channels to operate on, but hey.


                  This has some common ground with SOs but it is not the same thing. This
                  addresses color integrity, as a file is passed from one user to another.

                  So lets say someone has Auto-convert on (the potential commonest cause of most of these problems as far as I can see) - does Photoshop just say "screw you, I will not convert the numbers in this document, its got Ricks 'Output Intent' layer on"? Or does it still convert the master document, its contained Smart Objects, and then specify ANOTHER conversion to the proof setup? - There's a lot of conversions going on here.

                  • 6. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                    Printer_Rick Level 4

                    Reynolds (Mark) wrote:

                     

                    Again all fair points, its just a visible proof setup then. Not sure how your top group CMYK adjustment layers are going to work without any channels to operate on, but hey.

                    No it's not a proof setup, it's an Output Intent passed on to other users and other applications too.

                     

                    CMYK adjustment layers within the Output Intent would not alter the RGB numbers. They would work just like they would on a CMYK document, only the channels panel remains RGB and does not change. The adjustments would affect display of the CMYK space, which is displayed when the layer is visible. It would also affect CMYK readouts in the info panel.

                     

                    The adjustments are applied on output, just like with any other non-destructive adjustment layers.

                     

                    Output (from ID for example) would be as follows:

                     

                    1. RGB layers merged

                     

                    2. RGB data converted to CMYK based on Photoshop Output Intent

                     

                    3. CMYK adjustment layers merged

                     

                     

                    Notice that 1 and 2 are what already happens in ID, so we are just adding the merging of the CMYK adjustments. This is not a tall order, I wouldn't think.

                     

                    Reynolds (Mark) wrote:

                     

                     

                    So lets say someone has Auto-convert on (the potential commonest cause of most of these problems as far as I can see) - does Photoshop just say "screw you, I will not convert the numbers in this document, its got Ricks 'Output Intent' layer on"? Or does it still convert the master document, its contained Smart Objects, and then specify ANOTHER conversion to the proof setup? - There's a lot of conversions going on here.

                    Auto convert would change the RGB numbers. The Output Intent remains unchanged.

                     

                    It's not a conversion, so Auto convert does not affect it. If someone doesn't want the Output Intent, they can discard the layer, plain and simple. But they would have to forcefully do it. Hopefully it would prevent mistakes.

                     

                    This feature would go a long way towards preventing unintentional color conversions.

                    • 7. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                      Mike Ornellas Level 3

                      This subject is part of the Smart Photoshop development.

                       


                      The ICC color adjustment actually resides above the layer set in the layers palette. It can be replaced with another ICC adjustment but you cannot compound the adjustments.  This feature converts the file to the desired output intent.  RGB or CMYK

                       

                      The problem with the current development of Photoshop is mindless additions of adjustments  in no logical order.

                       


                      In order for this ideology to function correctly you control the working space as a known fixed space.  The ICC adjustment layer replaces the proof set up in the Smart technology workflow.

                      • 8. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                        Printer_Rick Level 4

                        Mike Ornellas wrote:


                        The ICC color adjustment actually resides above the layer set in the layers palette. It can be replaced with another ICC adjustment but you cannot compound the adjustments.  This feature converts the file to the desired output intent.  RGB or CMYK

                         

                        You are right, more transfer adjustments would be confusing. It was more of an afterthought I had, as a way of controlling color relative to the destination space.

                         

                        With an idea like this being so straightforward, do you know exactly why it hasn't been implemented yet? It doesn't seem like it would be all that difficult from an engineering standpoint.

                        • 9. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                          Mike Ornellas Level 3

                          Because it breaks the current logic of layers.  The structure.The requirements.

                           

                          Im so past the current Photoshop mess, but I still have to work in it.

                          • 10. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                            Reynolds (Mark) Level 4

                            Mike-

                            The problem with the current development of Photoshop is mindless additions of adjustments in no logical order.

                            No I disagree with that. Whether whats going on in a file is mindless or not, is to do with the user - not with the 'development of Photoshop'. As I said elsewhere, a blanket assumption of stupidity on the part of users, cannot be a constructive approach.

                             

                            Rick

                            Auto convert would change the RGB numbers. The Output Intent remains unchanged.

                             

                            Ok - it is still turning into "profile conversion soup" though. Don't worry I do get that its effectively a tag saying to Indesign "convert this to… with these options…". Remembering that every conversion is damaging, some massively so.

                             

                            I keep thinking that 'Auto-convert' Preference should frankly be a lot more difficult to make - that would sort out a lot of issues. I also think personally that having embedded Conversion Options in Smart Objects (and maybe even 'lockable' profiles) would be a useful idea.

                             

                            I like the idea that has been come up with and think it has potential, but its something that MUST have been considered before by engineers, going back as far as Photoshop 6 I would imagine.

                            • 11. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                              Mike Ornellas Level 3

                              Mike-
                              The problem with the current development of Photoshop is mindless additions of adjustments in no logical order.

                               

                              No I disagree with that. Whether whats going on in a file is mindless or not, is to do with the user - not with the 'development of Photoshop'. As I said elsewhere, a blanket assumption of stupidity on the part of users, cannot be a constructive approach.

                               

                               

                               

                              Rick

                               

                               

                               

                              Mark -

                               


                              if the majority of users and a very large majority of users are not understanding what they are doing, then I pretty much can only blame the developer.

                               


                              Yes, it takes self education to figure things out, but if it takes too much self education, you lose your customers attention.  And guess what, we are living in an attention deficit World now days. It's mindless and pointless to continue Adobe's plight into their own dismay by piling on more features onto shaky ground.

                               


                              Half the battle to all of this is file control.  The other half is the file matching the intended output - RGB or CMYK or whatever.

                               


                              We can control the file better.

                               


                              We will still have to battle the output intent.

                               


                              Winning half the battle is better then losing the war.

                              • 12. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                Printer_Rick Level 4

                                Reynolds (Mark) wrote:

                                 

                                I like the idea that has been come up with and think it has potential, but its something that MUST have been considered before by engineers, going back as far as Photoshop 6 I would imagine.

                                The idea of Output Intent really isn't new, it's already in PDF. I don't see why it would be difficult.

                                 

                                But then PSD is not PDF either. That's why all vector data goes out the window when you output a PSD from ID. (A different issue although not entirely unrelated)

                                 

                                Output Intent could be a patch before Smart Photoshop is introduced. But a patch is usually a bad approach, and would probably add to the confusion...

                                • 13. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                  Mike Ornellas Level 3

                                  The concept of one RGB color space is not new.  The problem was that no one could agree on what space to use. Things like which color space is best to use for general use.  sRGB was proposed but you are sacrificing image quality for consistency and it got shot down.  Right idea, wrong implementation so it got shelved and now we have an open architecture.  Part of the blame is on the technology of the time and the other part is the rush to develop a color management philosophy that the color geeks of the time were clamoring for.

                                   


                                  Well, it's now time to revisit the subject before we completely lose site of why we implemented color control in the first place.


                                  Anytime you have a vector object in a raster file, you are asking for trouble because the receiving rip controls file behavior upon output.

                                  1 person found this helpful
                                  • 14. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                    Printer_Rick Level 4

                                    Correct me if I'm wrong - you have previously suggested ProPhoto 32 bit as the container RGB working space, with all RGB images converting to that. That seems like a good idea to me. Then the Smart PS workflow would apply just as well to web design, with the destination space sRGB. Like you stated earlier, all of this goes well beyond print.

                                     

                                    With this workflow, what happens with an untagged image? Does it get an sRGB or aRGB assignment, then convert to ProPhoto?

                                     

                                    It seems like untagged images are the cause of LOTS of CM hiccups. They bring on unintentional assignments, which in turn cause faulty conversions.

                                     

                                    From what I have read in various forums, a lot of users are misunderstanding Assign vs Convert. At face value re-assignment does look like a conversion - convert implies change, and the color plainly changes. The terminology is somewhat misleading. The app should make the distinction clearer.

                                     

                                    When CM was first introduced in Photoshop, why did Adobe allow users to discard profiles so easily? If someone has an Off policy, "Ask when opening" disabled, and the nanny warning shoved to the side, image colors are being reset all over the place, every day. It's baffling. Profiles should always be preserved when opening a file. If someone has some pressing need to trash it, fine, but they should be forced to do the command, not do it unintentionally.

                                     

                                    But now that this behavior has been going on for years and years, the mystery device color files have piled up, and the true profiles are anybody's guess.

                                    • 15. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                      Mike Ornellas Level 3
                                      With this workflow, what happens with an untagged image? Does it get an sRGB or aRGB assignment, then convert to ProPhoto?

                                       


                                      Gets converted to the working space via the color setting. You are shown the image before the conversion so you can choose the best color space for the untagged image. OR just have it accept the untagged image, assign the color space and convert to the working space. It's an aware or unaware policy, but now the image has been flowed into process control.

                                       

                                      It seems like untagged images are the cause of LOTS of CM hiccups. They bring on unintentional assignments, which in turn cause faulty conversions.

                                       

                                      There will always be untagged images.  The key is to get the untagged images flowing back into color control as best as possible.

                                       

                                      When CM was first introduced in Photoshop, why did Adobe allow users to discard profiles so easily?

                                       

                                      Some may agrue that it's not that easy.  I tend to agree with you that it's pretty easy to do. This is a question for Adobe and not me. I for one think the whole thing is screwed up.

                                       

                                       

                                      Profiles should always be preserved when opening a file. If someone has some pressing need to trash it, fine, but they should be forced to do the command, not do it unintentionally.

                                      The key here is to either create a new file workflow that is hard coded for Adobe specific workflows or export files for other softwares.  That of which the option of removing the tag would be possible.

                                       

                                      It's a choice.  Road or off road.

                                       

                                      We have a bridge, why not a road?

                                      • 16. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                        Reynolds (Mark) Level 4

                                        Sigh - this is getting silly now

                                         

                                        MIke: Anytime you have a vector object in a raster file, you are asking for trouble because the receiving rip controls file behavior upon output.

                                         

                                        …looks on the surface like a complete lack of understanding, of what embedded vector smart objects in Photoshop are.

                                         

                                        Rick: you have previously suggested ProPhoto 32 bit as the container RGB working space, with all RGB images converting to that.

                                        Thats DAMAGING. The process of REAL conversion is always damaging- has to be. Taking a large gamut space like proPhoto and converting everything down to output intent (8 bit which 90% of the people in the world are using) is going to damage EVERYONE'S files. Theres a HUGE cost to coversion Rick (Mark), its not a simple process of - 'any amount of conversions will do as long as output INTENT is sorted'.

                                         

                                        When CM was first introduced in Photoshop, why did Adobe allow users to discard profiles so easily?

                                        Version 5. Because there were people like Mike going "OH WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!, I liked it how it was" - the moaning was like watching a bunch of school kids being told to walk to school, without realising that the bus was round the corner.

                                         

                                        Don't overestimate the importance of all this stuff. The way Photoshop does mode and profile conversions is so damn GOOD that most people who don't know whats going on, and don't care. Credit where its due, could be a lot worse than it is. Its color profiles that we are talking about (definitions of the way color appears and its intended destination) is not rocket science. It shoudn't get in the way of what MOST people want do do - work on IMAGES.

                                        • 17. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                          Mike Ornellas Level 3

                                          …looks on the surface like a complete lack of understanding, of what embedded vector smart objects in Photoshop are.

                                          I think you need to bone up on your reading....

                                          • 18. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                            Mike Ornellas Level 3

                                            Thats DAMAGING. The process of REAL conversion is always damaging- has to be. Taking a large gamut space like proPhoto and converting everything down to output intent (8 bit which 90% of the people in the world are using) is going to damage EVERYONE'S files. Theres a HUGE cost to coversion Rick (Mark), its not a simple process of - 'any amount of conversions will do as long as output INTENT is sorted'.

                                            Again, you don't get it.  And you are wrong in your statement. It's the less of two evils for the benefit of the majority.  If you want to continue your retarded quest outside the box, by all means do so.  You sound so much like all the retards on the Apple color sync forum where they all talk theory and micormanagement.  Maybe you can join that circle gerk cuz it's more your speed Mark.

                                            • 19. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                              Reynolds (Mark) Level 4
                                              It's the less of two evils for the benefit of the majority.

                                              No its not - its a complete abandoning of common sense - taking away control from the user, and replacing it with a sledgehammer. The 'majority' is not and never will be, color obsessed printing geeks.

                                              • 20. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                                Mike Ornellas Level 3

                                                Mark -


                                                It is far better to have a conversion to a larger space then to have a file that is misassigned a color space.  To preserve the color appearance takes precedence over anything.  The majority of users are AWARE of this. Are you?

                                                 


                                                AGAIN -

                                                 


                                                I'm not taking away your ability to do what you are already doing.  IF you want to work in a pig sty, then by all means do so.  The majority of users are not only tired of it, but are completely lost in the process.  Very few understand what we are talking about and therefore a new paradigm must be implemented to bring all levels of users together AND THAT IS WHAT I AM TRYING TO DO.

                                                 


                                                if not, then I will go to my grave knowing I was right and the rest of you are arrogant fools.

                                                • 21. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                                  Printer_Rick Level 4

                                                  Reynolds (Mark) wrote:

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  Thats DAMAGING. The process of REAL conversion is always damaging- has to be. Taking a large gamut space like proPhoto and converting everything down to output intent (8 bit which 90% of the people in the world are using) is going to damage EVERYONE'S files. Theres a HUGE cost to coversion Rick (Mark), its not a simple process of - 'any amount of conversions will do as long as output INTENT is sorted'.

                                                   

                                                  I'm not so sure that "damaging" is an applicable term.

                                                   

                                                  aRGB 8 bit - CMYK 8 bit (one conversion) VS. aRGB 8 bit - ProPhoto RGB 32 bit - CMYK 8 bit (2 conversions): any difference is immaterial. True, two conversions is two trips to Lab as opposed to one. But ProPhoto is more than enough gamut to encompass just about any RGB gamut. And it's not like you'll encounter ProPhoto fringe colors, hardly ever. Most RGB gamuts don't have these colors, so after the initial conversion they are not there.

                                                   

                                                  The only time you'd see them is by pushing colors there through color adjustments. With the ICC layer no one would do that, because nothing would happen on the display. The display works off the ICC layer - and the destination wouldn't contain the fringe colors (unless it was ProPhoto, which is highly unlikely, it's usually not a destination profile).

                                                   

                                                  With Photoshop conversions there is a smoothing when going to Source - Lab - Destination. In the strictest numbers and pixels sense, there is damage, but if the working space is 32 bit ProPhoto the damage would be so miniscule it would amount to nothing.

                                                   

                                                  And my understanding is the incoming file can be 8 bit. It flows into 32 bit. The output ICC can be 8 bit. So the 32 bit is just for the working file, not the output.

                                                   

                                                  The file would be source RGB (ProPhoto if you choose it), but the ICC layer would always provide OUTPUT preview. That's what this is all about isn't it? Communicating color output?

                                                   

                                                  And it's not just for print nerds, it's for anyone who uses Photoshop and is repurposing images. Web design, high-end ink jet, another RGB display, you name it. It is not limited to offset printing.

                                                  • 22. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                                    Mike Ornellas Level 3

                                                    Don't overestimate the importance of all this stuff. The way Photoshop does mode and profile conversions is so damn GOOD that most people who don't know whats going on, and don't care

                                                    hmm....

                                                     

                                                    Maybe you should start listening to youself more often.

                                                     

                                                    ;o)

                                                    • 23. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                                      Mike Ornellas Level 3

                                                      Rick -

                                                       


                                                      There is no damage with the Smart Photoshop model because the source or capture space is retained - similar to Smart Object ideology.  Photoshop is one big Smart Application.

                                                       


                                                      You lose nothing - its there, but it may not be appacable for your work or color space until a new idiology is developed - other then what we have today.  People need to stop thinking so short sited....

                                                      • 24. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                                        Printer_Rick Level 4

                                                        OK I think I understand. I was confounding things by thinking of how the app is currently built.

                                                         

                                                        I re-read this post in the other thread:

                                                         

                                                        Mike Ornellas wrote:

                                                         

                                                        I went and created a custom RGB color space useing Adobe RGB as a source color space, then shifted the gamma to bring back the detail and heavy tones in the flesh. Shifted the RGB primeries to bring back a color balance then converted the file to CMYK. Did a few tweeks in CMYK and got pretty damn close. It took me about 1/2 hour to fix.

                                                        It sounds like you modified the color space itself. I know what you are talking about, I've done it. But when I mentioned this a couple weeks ago it seemed like a very unpopular idea.

                                                         

                                                        Modifying a color gamut makes sense to me if it gets the job done. Usually to color correct you change the pixel values, but it's also possible to leave those alone and instead modify the color space.

                                                         

                                                        Does this logic also fit into the Smart Photoshop workflow?

                                                        • 25. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                                          Mike Ornellas Level 3
                                                          It sounds like you modified the color space itself. I know what you are talking about, I've done it. But when I mentioned this a couple weeks ago it seemed like a very unpopular idea.

                                                           

                                                          Mark -

                                                           


                                                          This is the out of the box example of what a user needs to do in a worse case situation. It's unpopular because it's not something everyone should do or know to do.  The app is really not geared towards screwing around with files like this and it's not for the faint of heart to do this kind of stuff..but it should still be an option.  A more viable option is to refine the interface and create a quad space color tweener Bruce Fraser was talking about before his death. We shared some amazing concepts smoking pot on his back porch. I had to stop at dropping acid.  He was way too far out there for me for that....

                                                           


                                                          Does this logic also fit into the Smart Photoshop workflow?

                                                           


                                                          It does because there are two choices.  On or off road image manipulation.  This would be considered off road.

                                                          • 26. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                                            Printer_Rick Level 4

                                                            Reynolds (Mark) wrote:

                                                             

                                                             

                                                            So lets say someone has Auto-convert on (the potential commonest cause of most of these problems as far as I can see) -

                                                             

                                                            Mark,

                                                             

                                                            I missed this earlier. I'm very surprised you say that auto-convert is the primary cause of CM problems.

                                                             

                                                            I would have to disagree. I believe that most faulty color communication is caused by untagged images. Many untagged images are created by users who have policies set to "Off" in their color settings, and the warnings disabled.

                                                             

                                                            "Color Management Off" is probably the 2nd most commonly selected canned color setting after the default "North America General Purpose 2", and invariably the "Ask" options are checked off. People don't like pop-up warnings. And like you mentioned in the other thread, many people don't like color management either.

                                                             

                                                            The tags are discarded. When the image is passed on there is a color re-assignment, screwing up the subsequent conversion.

                                                             

                                                            I would guess that not very many people use auto convert in the color settings. Most who do are probably web designers, and it would be the RGB policy with working space sRGB. More than likely, many of their source images are either already sRGB, or untagged, in these cases the policy does no change to the image color numbers (no conversion). And even if it was a larger gamut source like aRGB - yes, a conversion clips some colors, but appearance is mostly maintained.

                                                             

                                                            Re-assignment is what is causing the color shifts that are puzzling people all over the world.

                                                             

                                                            Re-assignment is what happened with F7 in the other thread. He or she said "converting", but there was no auto-convert. It was re-assignment.

                                                             

                                                            Looking through these forums in the past few weeks I am surprised at how often this issue comes up:

                                                             

                                                            http://forums.adobe.com/message/2098269#2098269

                                                             

                                                            http://forums.adobe.com/message/2120343#2120343

                                                             

                                                            http://forums.adobe.com/message/1079122#1079122

                                                             

                                                            I think this problem is way bigger than most people think it is.

                                                            • 27. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                                              Printer_Rick Level 4

                                                              Mike Ornellas wrote:

                                                               


                                                              It does because there are two choices.  On or off road image manipulation.  This would be considered off road.

                                                              Thanks for the advice Mike. At this point I'm ready to give up on all this color nonsense and go back to playing guitar.

                                                               

                                                              I'll keep a lookout for Smart Photoshop, maybe one day...

                                                              • 28. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                                                Reynolds (Mark) Level 4
                                                                I would guess that not very many people use auto convert in the color settings.

                                                                 

                                                                Hmm - I've been in studios where some  IT type genius, has set everyones settings to auto convert. Seen it twice - once it was convert to sRGB ( a print studio - auto convert to North american defaults!) and the other Adobe RGB (which was a multi output studio). Completely wrong or partially wrong in both cases. Most users don't even know what color settings even ARE, and where they can be found. Most only find them because they want to get rid of "different working space" and "missing profile" warnings.

                                                                • 29. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                                                  Reynolds (Mark) Level 4
                                                                  It is far better to have a conversion to a larger space then to have a file that is misassigned a color space.  To preserve the color appearance takes precedence over anything.  The majority of users are AWARE of this. Are you?

                                                                   

                                                                  Whoever said anything about misassigning profiles?  Whats that got to do with it? Two conversions … larger space, THEN smaller space again. Whopping Prophoto RGB (I get it probably limited in some way) to CMYK. I remember the whole argument about using an RGB space that has some relationship to CMYK gamut. And the lost Bruce RGB, which brings us to …

                                                                   

                                                                  We shared some amazing concepts smoking pot on his back porch. I had to stop at dropping acid.

                                                                   

                                                                  Well its all beginning to fall into place. If Bruce Fraser was seriously, without artificial stimulus, recommending that Photoshop uses ProPhoto RGB as a kind of default master space - then I take back everything I ever said, and will no longer make any contribution on this subject.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                                                    Mike Ornellas Level 3

                                                                    Mark -

                                                                     


                                                                    The concepts of what I have conveyed are mine and not Bruce's. The creation of Smart Photoshop started at LAB color space in its inception and he educated me in that there are serious color transformation problems in LAB to RGB and CMYK in 8 and 16 bit. LAB as the connection space is a given, but as an editing space for the majority, it was shot down and for good reason.

                                                                     


                                                                    I remember the whole argument about using an RGB space that has some
                                                                    relationship to CMYK gamut. And the lost Bruce RGB, which brings us to …

                                                                     

                                                                    The relationship has to do with the conversion between RGB and CMYK in 8 and 16 bit AND the fact that Photoshops gamma is not 1.0 and it CAN'T be, but for higher bit processing we circumvent this issue.  There are reasons upon reasons why Adobe had done what they have done to work within the limitations of the technology and developmental growth. We are reaching a point in which a lot of the limitations shall fall by the wayside and embrace a higher degree of imaging.

                                                                     


                                                                    Whoever said anything about misassigning profiles?  Whats that got to do with it?

                                                                     

                                                                    It has everything to do with everything.  It's about human behavior and the psychology of said behavior...

                                                                     

                                                                     

                                                                    Whopping Prophoto RGB (I get it probably limited in some way) to CMYK.

                                                                     

                                                                    Not in higher bit depth. The only stubling block I see is out of gamut editing that has a destionation for CMYK, but users really need to understand what is in and out of gamut for the device they are printing to. To put gamut clipping or compression within a ICC color adjustment layer can be understood by all and WILL stop a lot of people from blind assumptions, as well as educate them RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEIR EYES as to how the file shall behave upon output = if they have done the proper measures to control color. And even if they did not do the proper measures, if you have a generic output intent such as the US prepress defaults, the light bulb will turn on much quicker then the color monkey business we now have...

                                                                    • 31. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                                                      Reynolds (Mark) Level 4

                                                                      OK! so 'Smart Photoshop' is editing files in 16 or 32 bit then - we finally admitted it. Its now all making more sense, except …

                                                                      The only stumbling block I see…

                                                                      … is that it slows everything down, and that people don't have the machines yet to deal with it. Or the patience.Or the drive space.

                                                                       

                                                                      So this is a projected future, I understand much more readily - then what's the point in complaining so aggressively, and uncompromisingly about the way things are now?

                                                                      but users really need to understand what is in and out of gamut for the device they are printing to

                                                                      So this is supposed to make life easier? Isn't that one of the things profiling is FOR?

                                                                      • 32. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                                                        Mike Ornellas Level 3
                                                                        OK! so 'Smart Photoshop' is editing files in 16 or 32 bit then - we finally admitted it. Its now all making more sense, except …

                                                                         


                                                                        Sorry, I thought you had that understanding and I will take responsibility if I was not clear.

                                                                         

                                                                        Yes higher bit~!

                                                                         


                                                                        It's starting to come together Mark.  The fog is clearing, but the issues are still a 4 dimensional puzzle of compounding proportions. Something needs to be done about it or at least try to do something to "better the mess" before melt down or we just decide to accept lower image quality and reliability for an extended period of time -  with little ability to preserve and archive human history  - with a higher degree of quality.

                                                                         


                                                                        Everyone is making image history on the planet now.  Look at things like social networks for example. The posting of picture and integrated graphics with motion -  and life others share with each-other through text media with who knows what attached - even look at this place... Look at the explosion of content and networks that a new technology has created in COMMUNICATION~!

                                                                         


                                                                        We are becoming a mass media World and it hugely affects everyone here and now  - and maybe even the dead people. It's about the language of color and how to retain it as best as possible.  There will always turds. We want more golden nuggets.

                                                                         

                                                                        I'm trying to get better files to more people all over the planet.

                                                                         


                                                                        get it?

                                                                         


                                                                        It's not rocket science.  It's color science applied with human behavior...  People are creatures of habit...  Take stock in this, and apply it.

                                                                         


                                                                        … is that it slows everything down, and that people don't have the machines yet to deal with it. Or the patience. Or the drive space

                                                                         

                                                                        In the real sense, yes it's a consideration of the design, but you also have to look at the rate in which we are growing in technology in chip expansion. The turn over rate in hardware is going to ramp up and there will be a forced justifacation of planned oblsence  - as Adobe has so wonderfully and rightfully in some regards, added to each release, to stop or slow legacy files, both in image editing and layout.

                                                                         

                                                                        The company is bing pulled in many directions in every release and is trying to do the right thing for many, but it's F-ing out of control at this point and someone has to put their foot down.


                                                                        Let me tell you something. China print companies, are the breaker of most rules and has the most to gain by all this - especially due to the economic situation we now have. They are poised to take off as a Super Power Country and if Adobe does nothing to real in control of their own product, they are going to get spanked! Not by competition, but by loss of income. This is only one of many things that needs to be addressed in the leaking bucket at Adobe.

                                                                         


                                                                        The drive space is really not an issue,  Gigs are cheap now and will get even less due to the volume of content that needs to be archived, shared, copied etc....Consumption will drive prices down.

                                                                         


                                                                        RGB needs to be fixed first.  CMYK is a huge fix within it self, but RGB controls CMYK.  First things first, but there are improvements that can be made in the interim to CMYK.

                                                                         


                                                                        Within the modules will be workflow's geared towards specific fields - but you have to understand the commonalities between each field of work and apply the workflow as a setting for that specific environment. Again, we are thinking in multidimention with crossovers of what will and will not work between many enviroments.

                                                                         


                                                                        The lag hit times will be lower then you think for the majority of people, but again, more research is needed and I do hear your concerns. I have taken this into a lot of consideration as well, but I feel it's the future and until someone proves me wrong, I think I will stick with my opinion as I continue my education.

                                                                         

                                                                        I see many perspectives Mark, and not just geek stuff. We have to look beyond our own career and experience.  I try everyday to figure out peoples thinking through the submission of their files. I get it.  It's not working.

                                                                         


                                                                        but users really need to understand what is in and out of gamut for the device they are printing to

                                                                         

                                                                        So this is supposed to make life easier? Isn't that one of the things profiling is FOR

                                                                        The application needs to teach the user as well as assist them in creating reliable images - inside and outside of the computer. Feed back is key to success, but there are some things that most don't want to deal with and that is color management, but its critical for both parties or many parties to communicate color as best and easy as they know. I'm just making it better and more transparent. There are many reasons for many things Mark, and profiling a divice is just one consideration.

                                                                        • 33. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                                                          Mike Ornellas Level 3

                                                                          Actually I find this a bit more interesting at the moment then color manglement.

                                                                           

                                                                          http://xjubier.free.fr/en/site_pages/solar_eclipses/TSE_2009_GoogleMapFull.html

                                                                           

                                                                          and look who gets the best shots of this event?

                                                                           

                                                                          Looks like the Planets are lining up for many reasons...

                                                                          • 34. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                                                            Reynolds (Mark) Level 4
                                                                            Let me tell you something. China print companies, are the breaker of most rules and has the most to gain by all this - especially due to the economic situation we now have. They are poised to take off as a Super Power Country and if Adobe does nothing to real in control of their own product, they are going to get spanked! Not by competition, but by loss of income.

                                                                            I work in the field of digital retouching. ie MOST of the time, when I'm not wasting time on this forum, I am altering images - I think the threat (India, China, South America mainly) is huge to my profession. Why? mainly illegal software  - without Adobe discovering some impossible legal means to 'reel in' published work created on illegal software - I'm afraid its going to get worse and worse, nothing to stop it.

                                                                            • 35. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                                                              Reynolds (Mark) Level 4

                                                                              Other subject. When I said …

                                                                              Taking a large gamut space like proPhoto and converting everything down to output intent (8 bit which 90% of the people in the world are using)

                                                                              Other thread: One thing thats not going to change in 8 bit is that mode conversion is damaging, and using a huge gamut space like ProPhoto would be an insane thing to do to the majority of users files.

                                                                               

                                                                              … And various other times this was stated as a basic, why didn't you leap in immediately and say "Mark! NO - now everyone is going to be upsampling their 8 bit workflow to 16 or 32 bit! -  screw their efficiency, and their time, and their equipment costs! Color management is surely more important than any of those things, because I'm assuming they are all print nerds" ?

                                                                               

                                                                              Would have saved us all a lot of time Mike.

                                                                              • 36. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                                                                Printer_Rick Level 4

                                                                                Reynolds (Mark) wrote:

                                                                                Hmm - I've been in studios where some  IT type genius, has set everyones settings to auto convert. Seen it twice - once it was convert to sRGB ( a print studio - auto convert to North american defaults!) and the other Adobe RGB (which was a multi output studio).

                                                                                So two studios. that proves nothing. Like I said earlier, with working space sRGB, if the image they open is already sRGB, no conversion, so no damage. If working space is aRGB, they could open aRGB, no conversion, no damage, or sRGB, conversion with no real damage since aRGB is bigger.

                                                                                 

                                                                                But guess what? If they open an untagged image - no conversion there either. But possible re-assignment. AND THAT IS THE REAL PROBLEM.

                                                                                 

                                                                                Reynolds (Mark) wrote:

                                                                                Whoever said anything about misassigning profiles?  Whats that got to do with it?

                                                                                That's got everything to do with it. I see untagged images ALL DAY EVERY DAY. PDFs are bam slam full of uncalibrated images.

                                                                                 

                                                                                This is the big big problem with images and color information getting completely skewed in the production chain.

                                                                                 

                                                                                Reynolds (Mark) wrote:

                                                                                 

                                                                                So this is supposed to make life easier? Isn't that one of the things profiling is FOR?

                                                                                 

                                                                                Mike has stated better what I tried to say earlier. It's about preserving the source color and controlling the destination. A conversion layer is MUCH MUCH better than what we have now.

                                                                                 

                                                                                What do we have now? Proof Preview? This lame broken tool that gets turned off when you save and close?

                                                                                 

                                                                                I'm not going to pretend I understand everything Mike says but I know one thing. A conversion layer will communicate output. People will see and understand and really know what a conversion is. They will understand that certain colors are beyond the destination gamut.

                                                                                 

                                                                                And maybe all this accidental re-assigning can be avoided. And people will actually know the difference between Convert and Assign.

                                                                                • 37. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                                                                  Mike Ornellas Level 3

                                                                                  I work in the field of digital retouching. ie MOST of the time, when I'm not wasting time on this forum, I am altering images - I think the threat (India, China, South America mainly) is huge to my profession. Why? mainly illegal software  - without Adobe discovering some impossible legal means to 'reel in' published work created on illegal software - I'm afraid its going to get worse and worse, nothing to stop it.

                                                                                  And I work in the same field and share the same thoughts except for Adobe's ability to stop piracy.  They have actually done a pretty good job at slowing the knock offs, but copied software protection is only part of it. It's about Adobe taking control of the worlds image processing. You create a product geared towards ease of use without the users really being aware of it, will help not only that user, but all users that touch that file. It's about market share and file control.

                                                                                   


                                                                                  Look at it this way. Just think of this concept along the lines of a desk top printer. You buy the unit, but the company that makes the printer really makes its profits from the consumables. The modules are the consumables, but you have to align the working space first to streamline the mess.

                                                                                   


                                                                                  I'm trying to create a much higher demand for the parts and not just the car....and part of the concept of Smart Photoshop is getting the keys and locking the doors until you pay.

                                                                                   


                                                                                  This is how Adobe will re-coupe the loss of income from the mayhem.

                                                                                   


                                                                                  So, I agree with everything except for nothing will stop it.

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                                                                    Mike Ornellas Level 3

                                                                                    … And various other times this was stated as a basic, why didn't you leap in immediately and say
                                                                                    "Mark! NO - now everyone is going to be upsampling their 8 bit workflow
                                                                                    to 16 or 32 bit! -  screw their efficiency, and their time, and their
                                                                                    equipment costs! Color management is surely more important than any of
                                                                                    those things, because I'm assuming they are all print nerds"
                                                                                    ?

                                                                                     

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Like I said Mark -

                                                                                     


                                                                                    It has to be an option from the beginning to work in Prophoto high bit. It's the only way to ease in the process of file control and to capitalize on market share.  Many people will move towards a seamless color management controller because there is not much thought involved in dealing with it. Yes, the machines need to be bigger, stronger, and faster as well as timed software and hardware release....

                                                                                     


                                                                                    You have to wrap all this around a marketing plan of a huge upgrade that will benefit the entire world.

                                                                                     


                                                                                    Color management is like a nagging step child. No one care about it, but it's important for all to listen.

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Assign Output Intent Layer
                                                                                      Printer_Rick Level 4

                                                                                      MIke

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Will Smart Photoshop replace normal Photoshop, or be a better version for those who want it?

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