17 Replies Latest reply on Jul 25, 2009 2:47 PM by the_wine_snob

    No progressive download for H.264?

    impactvideo Level 1

      I was encoding a 6 minute video for web delivery in H.264 and it appeared that there is no provision for encoding for Fast Start or other setting to allow progressive download.  The 6 minute video compressed in H.264 to about 30MB and was only downloadable off our web host as a full download. This required about 20-25 seconds on cable modem.  Not a satisfactory result!

       

      Does anyone know how to set for progressive download?   I had the same experience when encoding into the variations in QuickTime.

       

      This is crazy. If this is not currently possible, does anyone know if Adobe is taking steps to remedy?  Is this remedied in CS4?  I have heard reports of excessive crashing in Premiere CS4 so I have been reluctant to upgrade.

       

      Regards.

       

      Jeff

        • 1. Re: No progressive download for H.264?
          John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          >anyone know if Adobe is taking steps to remedy?  Is this remedied in CS4?

           

          I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think h.264 is a part of Apple's quicktime, so Adobe only uses the specifications available to quicktime

           

          You might go to Apple's site and check into buying Quicktime Pro so you may use it to directly code to that codec... IF QtPro says it will create a progressive file

          • 2. Re: No progressive download for H.264?
            impactvideo Level 1

            H.264 is owned by Main Concepts and is a variety of the MPEG-4 codec.  H.264 is available in the Adobe Media Encoder for use in QuickTime, Flash, and possibly others.  it is  available independently in AME wihtout use in one of those wrappers but as a native MPEG 4 wrapper.

             

            I have tried it independently as well as in the QuickTime wrapper and the same thing has happened.  The Flash version is available in CS3 as the Flash .flv. However, Flash .flv file cannot be played as an independent media file in many people computers.  If converted into a .swf file it can be.  In CS4 it can be incorporated in a Flash file as a F4V file with ( I believe) the same restrictions as a .flv file.

             

            I have tried both as a .mpg file and as a QuickTime file, and in both cases, the media file has to download completely prior to play in all browsers.  This is not acceptable for large files such as the 6 minute video I referred to in my original post.

             

            I was wanting to see if anyone knew how to set encoding parameters for use of the H.264 as either a QT or mpeg 4 so that progressive download can be implemented.  I use PP CS3, but I do have Adobe Media Encoder CS4 separately and in neither case can I encode for Progressive.  For use in the separate AME CS4 I can import the file as an AVI that I sent out separately from PP CS3.  Furthermore, I think it is critical to be able to apply 2 pass VBR and to be able to specify an option other than the baseline profile in the H.264 codec.

             

            Does anyone know if Adobe is making strides to remedy?

             

            All help is appreciated.

             

            Thanks.

             

            Jeff Deuitch

            Palmetto, FL

            • 3. Re: No progressive download for H.264?
              Jim_Simon Level 8
              If converted into a .swf file it can be.

               

              That is the preferable method anyway.  It requires no external players to be installed on the viewer's computer, only the Flash browser plug-in, which most people already have.

              • 4. Re: No progressive download for H.264?
                impactvideo Level 1

                Perhaps, but we are looking to perform our own tests.  I have a program which can convert uncompressed AVI or QT animation files directly to SWF. However, it does not necessarily provide the best result. It appears to have a 2 pass VBR option but the option appears to never be functional. Additionally, Flash files are more processor intensive for the viewer.s processor.

                 

                Our goal is to compare all possible formats and fine tune the settings to achieve the very best results on a quality/bitrate basis.  This may lead us to a professional level outboard encoder such as Squeeze or Flix.  Most authorities I have spoke with are not completely confident in the ability of on board encoders to give optimal results.  Regardless of weather it is Flash, Real Media, QT, Windows Media etc, there can be significant differences in the way different encoders actually encode to these formats.

                 

                To me the most significant option is the ability to utilize 2 pass VBR.  Comparing single pass VBR or CBR with 2 pass VBR does, in my opinion, show pretty significant differences to the point where I would not consider 2 pass VBR as optional..  Of course, I have not done comparisons at all resolutions for all formats and with fine tuning all settings. As you can understand, this would be a quite daunting task.  However, where 2 pass VBR is available, it would seem like a no brainier to use.  Progressive download is also not optional and I am trying very hard to see if AME can provide progressive download functionality to MPEG4 or QT using H.264.  I am not really sure if this has been incorporated into Windows Media encoding, but I will be checking that out soon.

                 

                I would certainly appreciate feedback from those who have done similar trials to see what works best.

                 

                Regards.

                 

                Jeff

                • 5. Re: No progressive download for H.264?
                  the_wine_snob Level 9

                  I would look into using QT Pro for your QuickStart/progressive files. It can ingest a lot of formats and output to the H.264 QuickStart.

                   

                  Good luck,

                   

                  Hunt

                  • 6. Re: No progressive download for H.264?
                    impactvideo Level 1

                    Hey thanks so much.

                     

                    Regards.

                     

                    Jeff

                     

                     

                    In a message dated 7/23/2009 4:39:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 

                    forums@adobe.com writes:

                     

                    I would  look into using QT Pro for your QuickStart/progressive files. It

                    can ingest a  lot of formats and output to the H.264 QuickStart.

                     

                    Good  luck,

                     

                    Hunt

                     

                     

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                    • 7. Re: No progressive download for H.264?
                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                      Flash files are more processor intensive for the viewer.s processor.

                       

                      Than H.264?!  That has certainly never been my experience.  My personal computer stumbles on several H.264 files because it just ain't powerful enough, but has never once failed to play a Flash video streamed from a web site.

                       

                      Our goal is to compare all possible formats and fine tune the settings to achieve the very best results on a quality/bitrate basis.

                       

                      A wasted goal, in my view.  For the very simple reason that if .wmv ends up being your 'best' option, you then force all users to have Windows Media Player installed to see your video.  (Or Quicktime, or RealPlayer, etc.)  That's why Flash is the preferred video format for web viewing.  It's ubiquitous.  (And quite frankly, can be excellent quality if done right.)

                      • 8. Re: No progressive download for H.264?
                        the_wine_snob Level 9

                        Jeff,

                         

                        Might be other ways of doing it, but I have not heard of any others. However, I am not an expert in QT files, so not the best resource.

                         

                        Good luck,

                         

                        Hunt

                         

                        PS you might want to re-think your sig.

                        • 9. Re: No progressive download for H.264?
                          impactvideo Level 1

                          Thanks. Not sure what my sig is?  I will have to take a look.

                           

                          Thanks for the suggestions. I was hoping that the Progressive Download 

                          could be used in PP CS3  to avoid the extra step of preparing an  intermediate

                          AVI or QY Animation then subsequently performing another  encoding.  If

                          possible in PP CS3, then it would be a single step.  Additionally, I have been

                          advised that the H.264 encoder in QT Pro is not  especially robust, but

                          admittedly it would provide the functionality  desired.

                           

                          Many thanks for the suggestions.

                           

                          Jeff Deuitch

                          Palmetto, FL

                           

                           

                          In a message dated 7/23/2009 5:42:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 

                          forums@adobe.com writes:

                           

                          Jeff,

                           

                          Might be other ways of doing it, but I have not  heard of any others.

                          However, I am not an expert in QT files, so not the best  resource.

                           

                          Good luck,

                           

                          Hunt

                           

                          PS you might  want to re-think your  sig.

                           

                           

                           

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                          • 10. Re: No progressive download for H.264?
                            impactvideo Level 1

                            For a meaningful comparison, would you not have to view the same video, 

                            encoded at the same bit rate for each format and in the same frame size and 

                            frame rate?

                             

                            I am not the expert here, but it seems to me that this condition would 

                            have to be met to farily compare. Easily done of course if you provide your own

                            video for comparison, and that is exactly what I am trying to do.  Can QT 

                            Pro output an H.264 in MPEG-4 as well as QT wrappers?

                             

                            I am going to experiment with both formats as well as Real Media and 

                            Windows Media at similar settings.  I do not have a program to simply  encode

                            swf's without taking a few extra steps. It is cumbersome. To my  knowledge,

                            flv's need to be embedded into a web page or otherwise incorporated  into a swf

                            to be widely viewable.  While I have a few players which can  play flv's

                            directly, these are not as widespread as QuickTime or Real  Player.  Not sure,

                            but I think that Window's Media Player can play  QuickTime files.  I do not

                            try this too much so I am not positive.

                             

                            Thanks for the help and best wishes.  I will probably bite the bullet  for

                            QT Pro in the next day or so. I think it is only around $30.

                             

                            Jeff

                             

                             

                            In a message dated 7/23/2009 5:39:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 

                            forums@adobe.com writes:

                             

                            Than  H.264?!  That has certainly never been my experience.  My personal 

                            computer stumbles on several H.264 files because it just ain't powerful 

                            enough, but has never once failed to play a Flash video streamed from a web 

                            site.

                             

                             

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                            • 11. Re: No progressive download for H.264?
                              the_wine_snob Level 9

                              Jeff,

                               

                              Sorry. I used forum shorthand and should have spelled it out a bit better. My fault.

                               

                              Sig = signature, the text, etc., that often accompanies one's signature in a forum. These can often be their hardware info, or maybe their personal URL. Most signatures with URL's get some sort of review, as it's all too common for folk to post, only to advertise something.

                               

                              It seldom happens here, but that might be through the work of the forum MOD's.

                               

                              I did not want to make a big deal of it, especially as I am only a user here, and have no responsibility as a moderator (MOD).

                               

                              Now, one problem can exist, where when one reads the forum via e-mail, etc., and responds to the thread, their POP provider, or other, might automatically tack on a URL for their services. This can be 100% inadvertant, and is usually done automatically and without the respondent's knowledge.

                               

                              I noticed that your initial post lacked the URL. The later ones had it.I did not check them closely, so they may be the same, or might well differ per post.  Not sure if you were replying from an e-mail account, or something other than from a browser. It could well be that if from e-mail, or a feed, you might not even be able to see that extra text at the bottom of several of your replies. Might only be viewable via a browser.

                               

                              It's just something to think about.

                               

                              Good luck with your tests, and I would appreciate hearing the results, as I'm sure others will, also.

                               

                              Hunt

                              • 12. Re: No progressive download for H.264?
                                the_wine_snob Level 9

                                For a meaningful comparison, would you not have to view the same video, encoded at the same bit rate for each format and in the same frame size and 

                                frame rate?


                                To me, that would be the most meaningful test. Even though I possess a critical eye, and a decent short-term memory, having an A-B, or A-B-C-D... comparison would be the best possible test.

                                 

                                Good luck, and please report on your tests.

                                 

                                Hunt

                                • 13. Re: No progressive download for H.264?
                                  impactvideo Level 1

                                  Hey thanks Hunt.

                                   

                                  I will do that. I am also really refining my protocols for camera work for 

                                  shooting video destined for the web. Namely, reducing the number of camera

                                  moves  i.e. pans, tilts etc., Shooting against backgrounds with a lot of

                                  redundant  pixels, keeping motion in the scene to a minimum and other things. 

                                  It  doesn't do you a lot of good to get highly refined with respect to

                                  compression  if you are not giving the encoder material that can be readily

                                  compressed.

                                   

                                  Regards.

                                   

                                  Jeff

                                   

                                   

                                  In a message dated 7/23/2009 8:39:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 

                                  forums@adobe.com writes:

                                   

                                  To me,  that would be the most meaningful test. Even though I possess a

                                  critical eye,  and a decent short-term memory, having an A-B, or A-B-C-D...

                                  comparison would  be the best possible test.

                                   

                                  Good luck, and please report on your  tests.

                                   

                                  Hunt

                                   

                                   

                                   

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                                  • 14. Re: No progressive download for H.264?
                                    impactvideo Level 1

                                    Oh, thanks for clarifying. Not really sure what is happening. I just went 

                                    to Adobe's web site and navigated to the forums and started posting.  I 

                                    will go back and look and try to see how I can optimize.  No landmines  hidden

                                    anywhere, just trying to get some answers to questions.  All my  marketing

                                    is done locally to potential video production clients, primarily in  the real

                                    estate industry and small business.

                                     

                                    Regards.

                                     

                                    Jeff Deuitch

                                    Impact Video Graphx

                                    Palmetto,FL

                                     

                                     

                                    In a message dated 7/23/2009 8:30:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 

                                    forums@adobe.com writes:

                                     

                                    I  noticed that your initial post lacked the URL. The later ones had it.I

                                    did not  check them closely, so they may be the same, or might well differ

                                    per  post.  Not sure if you were replying from an e-mail account, or something

                                    other than from a browser. It could well be that if from e-mail, or a

                                    feed,  you might not even be able to see that extra text at the bottom of

                                    several of  your replies. Might only be viewable via a browser.

                                     

                                    It's just  something to think about.

                                     

                                    Good luck with your tests, and I would  appreciate hearing the results, as

                                    I'm sure others will,  also.

                                     

                                    Hunt

                                     

                                     

                                     

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                                    • 15. Re: No progressive download for H.264?
                                      the_wine_snob Level 9

                                      Seeing all those asterixs ahead of the URL makes me think that it is something being added to your posts. I see similar when one is replying from an e-mail account, or via NTTP. However, I do not believe that the new forum is available from NTTP.

                                       

                                      Also, the fact that your posting device seems to include the full text of the message, to which you are replying, seems to indicate that you might be accessing the forum from something besides a browser, or at least a browser that I am not familiar with. Similar situations existed when NTTP was used, i.e. reading the Web-based fora via a News Reader and a News Server, instead of an Internet browser.

                                       

                                      I see several messages with tag lines/signatures like: "sent from Sally's iPod," and similar. These are added by the device used to read and reply to the fora.

                                       

                                      Good luck, and do let us know what your tests prove is best for you and your clients.

                                       

                                      Hunt

                                      • 16. Re: No progressive download for H.264?
                                        impactvideo Level 1

                                        Thanks.

                                         

                                        I use either AOL or I.E. I use them interchangeably so I cannot remember 

                                        which I may have used at the time.

                                         

                                        Regards.

                                         

                                        Jeff

                                         

                                         

                                        In a message dated 7/24/2009 4:42:13 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 

                                        forums@adobe.com writes:

                                         

                                        Seeing  all those asterixs ahead of the URL makes me think that it is

                                        something being  added to your posts. I see similar when one is replying from an

                                        e-mail  account, or via NTTP. However, I do not believe that the new forum

                                        is  available from NTTP.

                                         

                                        Also, the fact that your posting device  seems to include the full text of

                                        the message, to which you are replying,  seems to indicate that you might be

                                        accessing the forum from something besides  a browser, or at least a

                                        browser that I am not familiar with. Similar  situations existed when NTTP was

                                        used, i.e. reading the Web-based fora via a  News Reader and a News Server,

                                        instead of an Internet browser.

                                         

                                        I  see several messages with tag lines/signatures like: "sent from Sally's

                                        iPod,"  and similar. These are added by the device used to read and reply to

                                        the  fora.

                                         

                                        Good luck, and do let us know what your tests prove is best  for you and

                                        your  clients.

                                         

                                        Hunt

                                         

                                         

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                                        • 17. Re: No progressive download for H.264?
                                          the_wine_snob Level 9

                                          I would guess that it is something that AOL is adding. I haven't seen AOL in over a decade, so I have no idea how it works.

                                           

                                          Just curious,

                                           

                                          Hunt