11 Replies Latest reply on Aug 12, 2009 7:48 PM by the_wine_snob

    Audio (only) export issue in PP3 - doesn't match Timeline preview

    hwss_nc

      I'm working on a short HDV video clip of a live band performance (single camera, stereo audio track from an HV30) in 60i.  The audio was fed into the HV30 from AKG mics and a Mackie mixer (mic level inputs) and sounds very clean.

       

      I wanted to correct some aspects of the audio (increase bass, add EQ, compression, etc) and I started messing around with many different effects in PP3.  I also decided to unlink and duplicate (copy/paste) the audio track into track 2 (so the exact same stereo audio is in Audio tracks 1 & 2) and then apply different effects (like compression and EQ) to the 2nd track and then separately adjust the volume levels for Tracks 1&2 in the mixer, etc, etc.

       

      Bottom line - I got it to sound significantly better when listening to the mix from the Timeline.  I then selected to export the audio to a WAV file from PP3, using Uncompressed/16-bit/48K.

       

      However, the exported WAV file sounds very different from what the Timeline sounds like... I messed around with export and track settings and tried different things, but there is always a slight echo added and other distortion that just isn't on the Timeline preview.  The audio tracks are exactly in synch in the Timeline, so I don't know where the slight echo is coming from...

       

      Any ideas?  If I had the money, I would buy Audition 3 to do all this (I have a lot of audio mixing experience), but I would HOPE that the Audio/Export in PP3 would be able to dump exactly what I'm hearing when I listen to the Timeline preview...

       

      Thank you!

        • 1. Re: Audio (only) export issue in PP3 - doesn't match Timeline preview
          the_wine_snob Level 9

          I would guess that the problems that you describe are coming in the mixdown to the 2-channel (Stereo) Master. For what you are doing, I would keep the Audio as discrete 2x 2-Channel. In my case, I would (and often do as you are) use these in a DD 5.1 SS Master Project. Now, to Export this, one DOES need the Minnetonka SurCode DD 5.1 SS plug-in encoder (~ US$250, if bought through PrPro - better price than if one goes directly to their Web site). The Export would then be Export>AME and choosing Audio-only with the SurCode encoder.

           

          Note: that echo is from a difference in Reverb in your four channels, when Mixed-down to 2-channel. DD 5.1 SS and AC3 will keep them a lot cleaner.

           

          Hope that this helps,

           

          Hunt

           

          PS if one did not go the SurCode route, I would definitely Export each of the two stereo (2-channel) files and do the Mix-down in Audition, not in PrPro, but that is just me.

           

          Message was edited by: the_wine_snob  Added PS

          • 2. Re: Audio (only) export issue in PP3 - doesn't match Timeline preview
            hwss_nc Level 1

            OK, I understand what you are saying about using 5.1 or Audition 3 and I'll have to see if I can justify that ($) - my preference would be to get Audition 3 (too bad we can't get an upgrade price from CS3 Production Premium to Audition 3...).

             

            One point - I'm not using Reverb as an effect... If you meant the natural room reverb in the original track, then to me it would indicate that there is a slight synch issue between Tracks 1&2 during Export that causes a perceived delay - right?  Again - the tracks are in synch in the Timeline (tried linking and locking - no difference), and there is no slight echo in the Timeline preview - this is the issue that got me started on this thread... Timeline mix sounds much better than Audio/Export.

             

            I am going to try a work around tonight... I am going to export each of the 2 audio tracks separately (with effects applied) and then bring those 2 WAVs back into PP3 to be mixed and just drop the original audio to see what happens.  My concern was that I was applying too many effects to duplicate instances of the same audio track - maybe it's something PP3 can't handle.  I am running on a Quad core, but there appears to be a lot of processing taking place against the same audio track doing it the way I originally set it up...

             

            Thanks

            • 3. Re: Audio (only) export issue in PP3 - doesn't match Timeline preview
              Jim_Simon Level 8

              I would guess that the problems that you describe are coming in the mixdown to the 2-channel (Stereo) Master.

               

              That seems unlikely, as that is exactly what he is listening to in the sequence.  Further, there is no technical reason for such to occur.  The export should sound identical to the preview, and for me it always does.

               

              Personally, I can think of no technical reason for this to occur.  That would leave only a bug or operator error to explain things.  The first seems unlikely, given the lack of other reports on this front.  Which leaves us pretty much with operator error.  Though I admit from the data supplied so far, I haven't even a guess what he might be doing wrong.

              • 4. Re: Audio (only) export issue in PP3 - doesn't match Timeline preview
                the_wine_snob Level 9
                my preference would be to get Audition 3 (too bad we can't get an upgrade price from CS3 Production Premium to Audition 3...).

                 

                Are you sure. I got Audition 3 for US$99, IIRC, from CS2 Production Studio (contained Au 2.0). That was just after the release of Au 3, but not THAT long ago. With CS3 Production Premium, I would think that you would qualify even more than I did.

                 

                One point - I'm not using Reverb as an effect...

                 

                Then that was my error. I thought that you HAD added a bit of Reverb - sorry. And no, I was talking about the Effect, not the room ambience. Just a mistake on my part.

                 

                I am going to try a work around tonight... I am going to export each of the 2 audio tracks separately (with effects applied) and then bring those 2 WAVs back into PP3 to be mixed and just drop the original audio to see what happens

                 

                I often do similar to what you are doing - Upmixing. I know that the music industry is opposed to this with re-releases of music, where original multi-channel masters do not exist, but for my work, it is OK. I'll use duplicate Audio, just as you are, and then mix each 2-channel Clip a bit differently, using a touch of EQ, Reverb and Delay (most often), plus the spatial location of the sources for DD 5.1 SS mixing. Now, I am keeping the Effects to a minimum, but the Audio is room-filling, when I do it right, and with a light-hand. For my sources, I have found subtle is better, unless I need a panned SFX, or similar, and then I get to go a bit wild, like landing the helicopter on the back of the audience's heads!

                 

                Have you tried SoundBooth for the Audio mixing? I only used it in Beta, but had Audition, so never saw the use for it in my workflow. Who knew that Audition would soon be only a stand-alone?

                 

                Good luck, and please let me know what you find out with your tests. I can always learn more about the Audio-side of the street.

                 

                Hunt

                • 5. Re: Audio (only) export issue in PP3 - doesn't match Timeline preview
                  hwss_nc Level 1

                  thanks for the answers!!

                   

                  "wine snob" - you described what I am tring to achieve through upmixing - for me, the live recording needs a "fatter" sound than normal and my customer wants me to get this working...

                   

                  Jim - if it were operator error, suggestions on where should I start looking?  this is the first time I have ever experienced an audio export that was different than the Timeline preview mix... I have exported audio/video a lot, and have also done some very complicated videos and DVDs - conquering MANY quirks along the way with Adobe PP3 and Encore.  My concern was that if I am referencing the same "physical" audio through 2 different instances (or tracks) each with several different effects applied, that it could "invite" some type of bug in export... I really don't understand the induced echo, since I have no Reverb applied.  I have double checked the audio synch and the frames/waveforms in the Timeline match exactly... there should be no slight echo or delay.

                   

                  I did wonder if there could be phase issues... however, I'm not hearing this in the Timeline preview mix...

                   

                  Thanks again

                  • 6. Re: Audio (only) export issue in PP3 - doesn't match Timeline preview
                    Jim_Simon Level 8
                    if it were operator error, suggestions on where should I start looking?  this is the first time I have ever experienced an audio export that was different than the Timeline preview mix.

                     

                    Honestly, no.  My own audio exports have never exhibited such an issue.  I can't think of what you might be doing wrong that would cause this.

                     

                     

                    My concern was that if I am referencing the same "physical" audio through 2 different instances (or tracks) each with several different effects applied, that it could "invite" some type of bug in export.

                     

                    I do this often without issue, though.  That's why I don't suspect it's a bug.  That and the lack of others reporting the same issue.

                     

                     

                    How is it, exactly, that you're monitoring the Premiere mix, and the exported mix.  What's your computer speaker setup?  Is the export listened to on the same computer, or DVD through a stereo system?  Is it possible the playback software on the computer or the receiver have some sort of effect applied that's not actually in the sound track?

                    • 7. Re: Audio (only) export issue in PP3 - doesn't match Timeline preview
                      hwss_nc Level 1

                      Jim, thanks - good questions.  I have a receiver upstairs that always starts in "stadium" mode  :-)

                       

                      In this case, my setup is simple.  I am using a Quad core with Windows XP and Logictech amplified speakers plugged into the sound card, but I mainly use my Sennheiser closed-back headphones for mixing, which was the case here.

                       

                      The preview mix in PP3 sounds the same whether using headphones or speakers.

                       

                      The exported WAV(s) have been played back with Nero's WAV editor (forget the name), as well as with Windows Media Player - problems are heard through both programs (headphones or speakers)...

                       

                      Thanks

                      • 8. Re: Audio (only) export issue in PP3 - doesn't match Timeline preview
                        Jim_Simon Level 8

                        Man, I'm just at a loss to explain this.

                         

                        As a test, burn out a CD/DVD copy and bring it upstairs, making sure to turn off any receiver effects.

                        • 9. Re: Audio (only) export issue in PP3 - doesn't match Timeline preview
                          hwss_nc Level 1

                          Jim, I didn't have a chance to experiment anymore last night (side tracked on a different project), but first I'm planning to back up and start over by simply duplicating the audio track (no effects) in a new timeline and exporting the dual audio tracks mixed together that to see what happens, and then progress from there.

                           

                          I'll post back tomorrow morning.

                           

                          Thanks!

                          • 10. Re: Audio (only) export issue in PP3 - doesn't match Timeline preview
                            hwss_nc Level 1

                            Jim & "wine snob" - I started from scratch with my tests and it appears that the MultibandCompressor is what is causing me grief...

                             

                            What I was doing was using the MBC to isolate the bass guitar in the duplicate track (compressing out the high & midrange) so that I could boost the bass in that track up in the final mix.  This sounds fine in the Timeline preview, but very crappy in the the exported WAV file... and the slight delay showed up again.  It's just not the same as what I'm hearing in the preview.

                             

                            Obviously there are other and probably better ways to achieve what I was attempting, but the DIFFERENCE is what set me off...

                             

                            I have purchased a copy of Audition 3 (on order), since that is really what I need (after doing some research) - I will be a happy camper with that to work with, since I do a lot of live music-related video work (rock, jazz and symphonic).

                             

                            Thanks for the insight you both provided - I look forward to future collaboration as I get familiar with Audition 3.

                             

                            ps - "Wine Snob" - I hope you like good Napa Cabernet's - we might get along!!  :-)

                            • 11. Re: Audio (only) export issue in PP3 - doesn't match Timeline preview
                              the_wine_snob Level 9

                              Great news. Now, I use Multiband Compressor fairly often but most often in Audition, and with a very light hand - that's probably because I am a film/video-guy and much less an audio-guy.

                               

                              Hope that the rework will do it for your Project. I also do not believe that you will be disappointed in Audition. Personally, I cannot imagine most of my Projects without it.

                               

                              As for Cal-cabs - yes, I am a big fan. Just did a small vertical of Caymus Napa Cabs (two SS's thrown in for fun), and enjoyed very much. Right now, I'm doing a Napa Zin, but we're having ribs tonight!

                               

                              Good luck,

                               

                              Hunt