1 2 Previous Next 63 Replies Latest reply on Oct 17, 2011 8:39 AM by Royi A

    NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)

    lilbear34

      I originally posted thin in the Photoshop forum and someone pointed out to me that there was an ACR forum.

      How exactly does ACR 5.4 determine color for Nikon Nef files?  Does Adobe use their own unique color profile for Nikon cameras?

       

      I did the following tests with a D700.

       

      I used the capture mode RAW+jpg fine.   I took photos with the camera set to srgb and then to Adobe RGB 98.  

       

      I then processed the RAW files in ACR 5.4, once using srgb and once using Adobe 98.  When opened in Photoshop CS4, the colors in the images do no look like the colors in the jpg files from the camera.

       

      For the image shot with the camera set to srgb, if I process the RAW nef with ACR 5.4 set to srgb and open the processed NEF in Photoshop CS4 the colors are very different from the in-camera jpg, and there appears to be no way to get the colors close to the jpg from the camera.   For the same image shot with the camera set to srgb, if I process the RAW nef with ACR 5.4 set to Adobe RGB 98 and open the processed NEF in Photoshop CS4, and then assign (assign, not convert) the processed NEF the srgb color profile, the image is very close to the jpg from the camera, which I verified by doing a difference.

       

      For the image shot with the camera set to Adobe RGB 98, if I process the RAW NEF with ACR 5.4 set to Adobe RGB 98 and open the processed NEF in Photoshop CS4 the colors are very different from the in-camera jpg.   If I now assign the profile srgb to the processed NEF, the result is very close to the jpg image from the camera (with Adobe RGB 98!).

       

      This is very confusing.

       

      Any explanations.

        • 1. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
          xbytor2 Level 4

          In Camera Raw, go to the Camera Calibration panel (via the camera-looking icon).

          You'll see a set of profiles that (mostly) match various modes that are available in your camera.

           

          If none of those suit you, you can create a profile calibrated to your specific camera. Adobe's got an app for that.

           

          When you finish edits in ACR and want to open the image in PS, you specify the color space you want for the image.

          I usually use ProPhoto, but you may find sRGB or AdobeRGB more to your liking.

           

          'Real World Camera Raw' is the book you need to get if you want a more detailed explanation.

           

          There are also scores of threads here on the topic of 'Why don't my pictures from ACR look like they do in the camera?'.

          • 2. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
            Bill_Janes Level 2

            In additon to what Zbytor advised, you should know that ACR ignores all of the camera settings except white balance. Thus, any settings in your Picture Control (which are you using?) will be ignored. The default ACR rendering is somewhat conservative in contrast and saturation so as to give a good neutral starting point for editing of the images. I don't know what profiles are available for the D700, but with my D3 (which is very similar to the D700), camera standard, camera neutral, camera portrait, camera landscape (Velvia mode) and camera vivid are present along with others. The camera standard is designed to simulate the camera rendering with the Standard Picture Control. You should try these settings.

             

            If none of these are to your liking, you can use the ACR contrast, saturation, and other sliders to give the desired results and then save these settings as defaults for ACR and avoid the trouble of making your own profile.

             

            The screen appearances of images rendered into aRGB, sRGB, and ProPhotoRGB should be the same as long as colors are not clipped in the smaller space or on the monitor. This may seem nonintiutive at first, but then the purpose of color management is to maintain color consistency. Assigning to a narrower space will pump up colors, but that is not proper color management.

            • 3. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
              lilbear34 Level 1

              Thank you.

              I think part of the answer to my question is that Adobe uses camera profiles that they

              produced by shooting color targets.

              Still I find it interesting that I will get the Nikon jpg colors by processing the NEF in

              ACR with aRGB and then assigning the srgb profile.   There are times when I like the jpg

              colors, but I prefer ACR because of its other great features (5.2 up).

              • 4. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                Bill_Janes Level 2

                lilbear34 wrote:


                I think part of the answer to my question is that Adobe uses camera profiles that they produced by shooting color targets.

                I don't see how that clarifies anything. Shooting of colored targets is universally used for profiling.

                 

                Still I find it interesting that I will get the Nikon jpg colors by processing the NEF in ACR with aRGB and then assigning the srgb profile.   There are times when I like the jpg colors, but I prefer ACR because of its other great features (5.2 up).

                That may be interesting, but that is not the best approach. If you understand the ACR controls (Jeff Schewe's Real World ACR book is a good place to start), you should be able to duplicate the JPG colors in ACR.

                • 5. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                  Alaeia

                  Ok... to clarify.

                  I want Adobe Camera raw to respect my settings from the raw file and use this as my starting point

                  How do I achieve this please ?

                   

                  Thanks

                  • 6. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                    Level 4

                    Alaeia wrote:

                     

                    …I want Adobe Camera raw to respect my settings from the raw file and use this as my starting point

                    How do I achieve this please ?…

                     

                     

                    What settings?  If you're referring to the in-camera settings—such as sharpening and contrast, etc—then that won't happen.

                     

                    The in-camera settings only affect images you shoot and record as JPEGs.  Whatever settings are kept in a raw file are kept only as flags in metadata, and Adobe Camera Raw ignores those by design.

                    • 7. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                      b2martin_a Level 2

                      I understand that ACR does not use the in camera settings, but I don't understand why that should not be a goal for Adobe.  Adobe has released Camera Profiles that duplicate Nikon processed RAW files if in camera settings are at nominal values.  Why not complete the next step and automatically set the slider in the RAW converter to the correct values to duplicate the in Camera processed JPG as a starting point?  I believe this is what the previous poster and many other would like.

                      • 8. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                        Level 4

                        [Deleted by poster.]  This discussion has been held many times before.  It leads nowhere.

                        • 9. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                          JimHess-DIrcbP Level 3

                          b2martin_a wrote:

                           

                          I understand that ACR does not use the in camera settings, but I don't understand why that should not be a goal for Adobe.  Adobe has released Camera Profiles that duplicate Nikon processed RAW files if in camera settings are at nominal values.  Why not complete the next step and automatically set the slider in the RAW converter to the correct values to duplicate the in Camera processed JPG as a starting point?  I believe this is what the previous poster and many other would like.

                          That just is not going to happen.  It has been discussed extensively and Jeff Schewe has explained why previously.  There's no sense going over all that again.  If you want your in-camera settings applied to your NEF images then you will have to use Nikon software.

                          • 10. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                            Alaeia Level 1

                            Thanks for your replies  I do indeed want Adobe to read and USE the metadata. If so many others also want it, and if flags are set in the metadata,. it's surely not beyond the wit of a huge software house to read those settings and apply them.

                             

                            I took the trouble to search through several threads and found no adequate explanation for why Adobe is disdaining the needs of its customers.

                             

                            In many respects LR3 and PS12 aregreat products but they could be vastly more productive and useful to far more peolple if they improved workflow by using these settings.  At the very minimum they could refrain from ignoring the preview jpeg - if Microsoft and Mac etc are able to display and print images correctly using the nef codec I fail to see why Adobe with all its expertise in imagery can not. 

                             

                            Nikon have a substaintial proportion of the DSLR ,enthusiast and professional market which are at the heart of Adobe's target audience.   Why would Adobe wish to alienate such an important group of potential customers ?

                             

                            Thanks - Alaeia

                            • 11. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                              Level 4

                              I'll give it one last shot.

                               

                              Adobe Camera Raw strives to give you two things: (1) as much control over your image processing as possible, and (2) to present you with an initial rendering that is as close to natural and neutral as technically possible.

                               

                              The JPEG and raw conversion provided in-camera and by the camera manufacturer's conversion software, on the other hand, is geared to generating the over-saturated, over-contrasty and over-sharpened images with over-compressed shadows (to minimize noise) that appeal to a majority of amateur consumers.

                               

                              If you learn how to use Adobe Camera Raw, it provides you with the necessary tools to manipulate, even wreck your images in whatever manner you see fit.  With said tools, you can mimic any raw conversion provided by anybody.

                               

                              As for the metadata flags being ignored, please look up "proprietary" in the dictionary of your choice.

                               

                              While Adobe Camera Raw is not designed to emulate the "over-saturated, over-contrasty and over-sharpened images with over-compressed shadows to minimize noise" provided by the camera manufacturers, anyone who learns to use Adobe Camera Raw properly can come up with presets to emulate any look he desires.

                               

                              Anyone satisfied with the results of the camera manufacturer's software should by all means use that software.  Adobe Camera Raw is for the user who wants the most natural rendering of the scene and absolute control over the raw conversion.

                               

                              No one is trying to dictate what your images ought to look like.  I'm simply giving you a condensed, simplistic explanation of the guiding principles that have been detailed at length by the Camera Raw Team over the years—here and in print.

                               

                               

                               

                              Wo Tai Lao Le

                              我太老了

                              • 12. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                Vit Novak Level 3

                                Alaeia,

                                 

                                Camera Raw is universal raw development tool, supporting almost all digital cameras on the market (present and past). Every camera manufacturer has it's own algorithms to convert raw to jpeg and you can't expect that ACR will be able to emulate all of them. So it doesn't make sense to read metadata like sharpness, contrast, saturation etc, as these parameters have different meaning to each manufacturer and everyone is doing the processing different way. It does make sense to read only metadata like WB info, because whitebalancing is performed the same way in all cameras and raw developers (although with slight differences)

                                 

                                As another fact, I think most photographers shooting raw doesn't bother with setting sharpness, contrast and saturation on the camera. In my case, these are at default all of the time and I set them during raw processing in the program. So these metadata are totally unimportant for me

                                • 13. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                  b2martin_a Level 2

                                  I assume from your comments that Adobe Standard Profile's goal is to give a neutral rendering of the image with all sliders set to their nominal values (blacks - 5, brightness - 50, contrast -25. others 0) and medium contrast selected for the tone curve. When I do this with a D200 NEF file and set white balance by clicking on a gray card the colors are not correct - they are not correct with auto white blance either, but I expect that.  If I edit the Adobe Standard Profile using the DNG Profile Editor chart tab and an NEF image of the colorchecker shot in direct sunlight I get much better results.  Is this due to the fact that there is considerable variation between cameras and mine is probably not close in color rendering to the one Adobe used?

                                   

                                  I get much closer results when setting white balance by clicking on a gray card if I am using one of the Camera Profiles Adobe generated to memic the Nikon colors than I do using the Adobe Standard Profile.  This confused me.

                                   

                                  Is the recommended mode of operation to claibrate Adobe Standard Profile using the DNG profile editor and use that as my standard profile for ACR?

                                  • 14. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                    Vit Novak Level 3

                                    It depends what do you mean with 'correct colors'

                                     

                                    Basically, it works this way - when you take a photo with your camera, open the raw with ACR and set WB to 'As Shot', gray colors on the jpeg must also be gray on the image, produced by ACR, no matter which profile used (Adobe camera or some of Camera xxx profiles). However, if you use Adobe Standard profile, non-gray colors will have different hue, saturation and brightness than on jpeg

                                    • 15. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                      b2martin_a Level 2

                                      If the Adobe Standard profile is netural, I would expect to see no change or at least very small changes if I use the chart tab on the DNG profile editor using an NEF file of the colorchecker.  I see some major changes, does this just indicate that my camera is considerably different that the one Adobe used to generate the Adobe Standrd Profile for the D200?

                                      • 16. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                        ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        What temp/tint values give neutral WB in your NEF of the color-checker when using the eyedropper tool and the Adobe Standard profile in ACR?

                                         

                                        Adobe profiles are all dual-illuminant profiles that have two color-checker-based profiles in them.  One in Illuminant A (2850K or so) lighting and one in D65 lighting (6500K or so).  Neither of these are "Sunlight" which, in my experience is in usually between 4700K to 5800K depending on the atmospheric conditions where I live, so some interpolation of the color profile is happening when the WB is not exactly one of those used to create the profile.  For sunlight there is less error than something like fluorescent lighting where you really need your own color-checker-based profile.

                                         

                                        If you have a color-checker, already, you can make your own profile using the DNG Profile Editor and use that in lieu of the Adobe Standard or Camera Standard profile.  It will probably not look the same as the in-camera JPGs, though, so it is more about making different cameras you may have produce similar results, rather than matching any in-camera-JPGs.

                                         

                                        There are other level of sophistication that Adobe puts in their profiles that the end-user ones created with the color-checker cannot do, and that has to do with hue-twists that are put there to keep colors from going wild when they are much brighter or darker than what the color-checker has.  I don't know how Adobe does this but I wish they'd allow end-users to also create custom profiles with hue twists in them.

                                         

                                        If you want to create your own color-checker-based profiles for various lighting scenarios, or even a dual-illuminant profile, you can use the Adobe DNG Profile Editor, but for basic, automatic profile creation, you can also use another free product from X-Rite that comes along with their Color Checker Passport, which costs money for the color-target, but their software is downloadable for free:

                                         

                                        http://xritephoto.com/ph_product_overview.aspx?action=support&id=1257

                                         

                                        --

                                         

                                        Since this thread is about the differences you are setting between the CC inside of the DNG Profile Editor and your own photograph, you might post a side-by-side- screen capture of the two for others to see.

                                        • 17. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                          Vit Novak Level 3

                                          As about "dual illuminant Adobe profiles", I have yet to see one, because those I have checked (for some Canon and Nikon DSLRs and some Canon compacts) can hardly be called as dual illuminant. I don't want to say that something is wrong with those profiles, but here are the facts (Eric or Jeff - correct me if I'm wrong): forward matrices, that are used to convert from sensor color space to Photo Pro, have the same values for both illuminants (they only get different values if you modify a profile with a profile editor). And there is only one lookup table in the profile (not two), that is used for the color remapping after matrix operation via fwd matrix. Only thing concerning two illuminats are color matrix1 (A) and color matrix2 (D65), which are not the same (like forward matrix 1 and forward matrix 2) and those are used only to calculate R,G,B multipliers used for white balancing, when you set WB to something that isn't  'as shot'

                                           

                                          And as another fact, all Adobe standard profiles that I have checked (except a few latest profiles) share the very same lookup table ...

                                          • 18. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                            sandy_mc Level 3

                                            That's the wrong way round - the ColorMatrix's define the basic conversion from camera space to a real space. The forward matrixes are used for white balance.

                                             

                                            Sandy

                                            • 19. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                              Vit Novak Level 3

                                              Nope. If fwd matrices are present in the profile, they are used for color conversion and WB is done prior to color conversion, by multiplication RGB values with multiplicators (whether used from camera, whether calculated using color matirces - in actual implementation, this multiplication is combined with color conversion into one matrix operation). If there are no fwd matrices, then color matrices are used for color conversion and WB is done afterwards, by chromatic adaptation. It is specified in dng specification 1.3 and evident from dng sdk code. Also, it can be verifyed by profile editor - if you move temperature/tint sliders, color matrices are changed. If you move calibrate sliders, forward matrices are changed

                                              • 20. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                                sandy_mc Level 3

                                                Sorry, no, I think you confuse the DNG spec with what the Profile editor does. Page 53 of the DNG Spec:

                                                 

                                                ForwardMatrix1

                                                ...

                                                Description
                                                This tag defines a matrix that maps white balanced camera colors to XYZ D50 colors. Application is described in detail in Chapter 6.

                                                 

                                                Sandy

                                                • 21. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                                  Vit Novak Level 3

                                                  If you read that description again, you will find out that it's exactly what I have written

                                                  • 22. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                                    sandy_mc Level 3

                                                    Sorry, no, it's not actually what you wrote. But I'm not going to engage in an argument. Point is, the Adobe profiles you're looking at are dual illuminant. To whatever extent you don't think they are, sorry, but you're misreading the spec.

                                                     

                                                    Sandy

                                                    • 23. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                                      Vit Novak Level 3

                                                      It seems that I wasn't clear


                                                      I wrote '...  If fwd matrices are present in the profile, they are used for color  conversion and WB is done prior to color conversion ...'

                                                      Description states 'This tag (forward matrix) defines a matrix that maps white balanced camera colors to XYZ  D50 colors'

                                                       

                                                      "Whitebalanced camera colors" = take R,G,B from sensor and whitebalance it, by multiplying R, G and B with multiplyers. You can take them from raw file (and ACR will display corresponding temperature/tint) or calculate from temperature/tint, which is set in ACR

                                                       

                                                      "maps white balanced camera colors to XYZ  D50 colors" = after above white balancing, RGB is multiplyed with forward matrix and result is in PCS color space (or XYZ D50)

                                                       

                                                      After that, XYZ is multiplyed with another matrix, that converts it into RIMM color space, which has also D50 white point

                                                       

                                                      In real implementation, these matrices (D for whitebalancing, fwd matrix and PCS->RIMM matrix) are combined into one, so that calculation is faster

                                                      • 24. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                                        ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                        It is what Vit wrote as far as which happens first.

                                                        • 25. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                                          sandy_mc Level 3

                                                          Ok, let me try again from a different perspective. The statement was that:

                                                           

                                                          As about "dual illuminant Adobe profiles", I have yet to see one, because those I have checked (for some Canon and Nikon DSLRs and some Canon compacts) can hardly be called as dual illuminant. I don't want to say that something is wrong with those profiles, but here are the facts (Eric or Jeff - correct me if I'm wrong): forward matrices, that are used to convert from sensor color space to Photo Pro, have the same values for both illuminants (they only get different values if you modify a profile with a profile editor)

                                                          Now in DNG 1.1, forward matrixes didn't exist at all. Is the suggestion that no DNG 1.1 image was dual illuminant? I think not.

                                                           

                                                          Sandy

                                                          • 26. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                                            Vit Novak Level 3

                                                            Hi, Sandy

                                                             

                                                            Fist of all, note that I was talking about profiles, provided by Adobe and not profiles in general, because in general, Forward matrix 1 can surely be different from forward matrix 2, and it would be the case, if you take existing profile, open it with PE and move some sliders on calibration section. But in case of profiles provided by Adobe, once colors from sensor are whitebalanced (by scaling RGB values), further conversion to output color space doesn't depend on temperature set in the program. So I wrote these profiles can hardly be called "dual illuminant" or so ... but I'll repeat, I'm not telling that there's something wrong with this approach.

                                                             

                                                            In case that forward matrices are not defined (whether there's no profile and matrices embeded in ACR are used, whether you take a profile and erase forward matrices with ExifTool or something similar), than approach is different. Colors are converted from sensor color space to XYZ using inverse of color matrix, which is interpolated from color matrix 1 and 2, depending on color temperature, and these matrices have different values (in profiles provided by Adobe and also in ACR). After that, colors are whitabalanced - converted to XYZ D50 by chromatic adaptation matrix and then to RIMM by the third matrix (this one is embeded in ACR, as it is allways the same). As Eric once wrote, these two ways of whitebalancing are usual in color processing, and as stated in dng specification, first aproach (by scaling colors in sensor color space) is found to work better in some cases

                                                            • 27. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                                              sandy_mc Level 3

                                                              Yes, my point is that, exacty as you say, the color conversion is defined by an interpolation of the two color matrixes for the two illuminants - that's been the case since before forward matrixes existed - so as long as you have two color matrixes,  the profile is "dual illuminant". Again, as you say, forward matrixes are optional (and seldom used other than by Adobe, btw).

                                                               

                                                              Sandy

                                                              • 28. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                                                Vit Novak Level 3

                                                                Well, I have no source of other programs, except dcraw, but I supose that whitebalancing in most programs is performed with scaling in camera color space (it looks so in dcraw, although its very compact code is hard to read for me), so those programs are efectively using "forward matrices" in "dng terminology". And here is the problem - many of them borroved their values from dcraw, which "borrowed" them form Adobe (daylight color matrix) and use inverted color matrix as "forward matrix" (I'm not sure that this statement is understendable, but I tried ...). However, if you take one Adobe profile and convert color matrices and forward matrices to xyY space, you will find that positions of primaries in color matrices are slightly different than in forward matrices, so ...

                                                                • 29. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                                                  Bill_Janes Level 2

                                                                  Vit Novak wrote:

                                                                   

                                                                  Well, I have no source of other programs, except dcraw, but I supose that whitebalancing in most programs is performed with scaling in camera color space (it looks so in dcraw, although its very compact code is hard to read for me), so those programs are efectively using "forward matrices" in "dng terminology".

                                                                  Look at the Adobe DNG Software Develolpment Kit (DNG SDK). For windows it has a program Dngvalidate, which is a command line program that will perform raw conversions. The last time I looked at it, it had Visual C++ code written by Thomas Knoll to accomplish the task. I don't know if ACR uses the same or similar code, but this is another source program that might be of interest to you.


                                                                  http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/dng/dng_sdk.html

                                                                  • 30. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                                                    Vit Novak Level 3

                                                                    Yes, I studied a part of the sdk code, dealing with color conversions, of course (as evident from one of my previous posts, when I mentioned it) and played a bit with profiles. This code is supposed to be a part of ACR (peharps with some modifications / optimisations)

                                                                     

                                                                    Wow, this thread has more than 2000 views so far, much more than other threads on the first page. So I would again ask Eric or Jeff to correct me, if I was wrong with any of my claims. I just tried to explain and simplify things, because mathematical stuff in a dng specification or code in dng sdk is not so easy to understand after brief reading

                                                                    • 31. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                                                      sandy_mc Level 3

                                                                      DCRaw definitely is single illuminant. Capture One also appears to be single illuminant, judging by taking a look at the way they do their camera profiles.

                                                                       

                                                                      Sandy

                                                                      • 32. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                                                        MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                                                        Hi Vit and Sandy,

                                                                         

                                                                        The forward matrices (ForwardMatrix1 and ForwardMatrix2 tags) in the DNG spec map white-balanced linear camera coordinates to CIE XYZ with a reference white of D50. By definition, this means that a forward matrix must transform (1,1,1) to the D50 white point.

                                                                         

                                                                        A forward matrix by itself does not perform white balance.

                                                                         

                                                                        A forward matrix can be considered to be a linear transformation from white-balance linear camera coordinates to XYZ under a calibration illuminant (e.g., A or D65), followed by a chromatic adaptation from that calibration illuminant to D50. The choice of chromatic adaptation method is up to the profile creator/author.

                                                                         

                                                                        For some of our older profiles, we do not always use separate matrices for the two illuminants, but for most recent supported camera models, we do, e.g., here are the values from the Nikon D3S Adobe Standard profile:

                                                                         

                                                                        ForwardMatrix1:
                                                                              0.5478   0.3805   0.0361
                                                                              0.1681   0.9350  -0.1032
                                                                              0.0071  -0.1992   1.0172

                                                                         

                                                                        ForwardMatrix2:
                                                                              0.6995   0.2984  -0.0337
                                                                              0.2718   0.9867  -0.2584
                                                                              0.0030  -0.1183   0.9404

                                                                         

                                                                        Hope this helps,
                                                                        Eric
                                                                        • 33. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                                                          Vit Novak Level 3

                                                                          Thanks, Eric. Yes, I checked some latest profiles now and it looks that first profile with different fwd matrices is dated september 2009

                                                                           

                                                                          Sandy, about other programs, DxO seems to have dual illiminant profiles, judging by data available from their site, as they provide color matrices for two illuminants (along with other measurments). Unfortunately, it doesn't support dng. As about Capture One, there's one strange thing - it supports dngs, but if you try to convert your raws to dngs, you will find out that they doesn't produce correct colors. They are aware of this issue for about two years but still didn't sort it out. Can't believe that they have no stuff that would implement correct dng workflow - looks like intentional behavior to me

                                                                          • 34. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                                                            sandy_mc Level 3

                                                                            Yes, Capture One completely ignores all of the color calibration information in the DNG, and applies it's own profiles. That's quite common behavior - most raw developers treat DNGs simply as containers for raw data, and ignore everything else, other than some of the basic metadata. But the color matrixes etc are completely discarded. Which is why many will only load DNGs for cameras they recognize. However, LR and ACR also do that. If either LR or ACR see a DNG with a camera type they recognize, they will ignore all the color info other than the camera calibration matrixes.  So e.g., if you change the color matrixes on an M8 DNG, it has no effect at all.  For unrecognised cameras, the various matrixes, etc are read.

                                                                             

                                                                            Sandy

                                                                            • 35. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                                                              Vit Novak Level 3

                                                                              Sandy, I must correct you again

                                                                               

                                                                              ACR works correctly with dngs, which is expected, as both are originated by Adobe. I tested it with various Canon compact cameras, that are not supported by ACR, and various profiles (modifying color and forward matrices and lookup tables, using my programs) and everything is fine. If camera is supported by ACR, you have choice to use two calibrations, embeded in ACR, or profiles supplied by Adobe, or your own profiles and everything works as expected

                                                                               

                                                                              Edit: as about cameras, supported by ACR, that you mentioned - if you convert raw to dng, this also works ok in ACR (tested with 400D) - in that case, you have choice to use 2 calibrations, provided by Adobe, color profile embeded in a dng or external profiles. I had actually a small issue about using a profile, embededed in that kind of dng, but after short conversation with Eric, it turned out to be my fault

                                                                               

                                                                              Capture One also seems to read color matrices in a DNG - if you change them, output colors change. But something seems to be wrong with workflow in the program and colors are wrong (except for some cameras that natively produce dng, so they said on their forum)

                                                                              • 36. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                                                                ACRFREAK Level 1

                                                                                I don't mean to be disrespectful, or confrontational but I'm curious why someone might want to perfectly mimic JPEG settings. That blatantly throws away a lot of quality/improvement onto the cutting room floor.  I can see (maybe for some) setting it as a general base but then making improvements to it, and then making that a raw default setting (which I often teach JPEG shooters weaning themselves off of JPEG). But why get a raw image to look just like a JPEG perfectly, when you are throwing away a ton of easy improvement/correction? I shoot both Canon and Nikon and sometimes may use the JPEG profile as a sort of base starting position (for teaching some) but then I immediately make some solid improvements to general color balance, contrast, fill light, recovery, capture sharpening, noise reduction, color... and THEN set that as a default.

                                                                                • 37. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                                                                  Level 4

                                                                                  ACRFREAK wrote:

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I don't mean to be disrespectful, or confrontational but I'm curious why someone might want to perfectly mimic JPEG settings. That blatantly throws away a lot of quality/improvement onto the cutting room floor.…

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I agree with that sentiment 100%.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  But then, as they say in some countries in a different tongue, "everyone is free to make a kite out of his own backside."

                                                                                   

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Wo Tai Lao Le

                                                                                  我太老了

                                                                                  • 38. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                                                                    sandy_mc Level 3

                                                                                    Vit Novak wrote:

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Sandy, I must correct you again

                                                                                     

                                                                                    ACR works correctly with dngs, which is expected, as both are originated by Adobe. I tested it with various Canon compact cameras, that are not supported by ACR, and various profiles (modifying color and forward matrices and lookup tables, using my programs) and everything is fine. If camera is supported by ACR, you have choice to use two calibrations, embeded in ACR, or profiles supplied by Adobe, or your own profiles and everything works as expected

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Edit: as about cameras, supported by ACR, that you mentioned - if you convert raw to dng, this also works ok in ACR (tested with 400D) - in that case, you have choice to use 2 calibrations, provided by Adobe, color profile embeded in a dng or external profiles. I had actually a small issue about using a profile, embededed in that kind of dng, but after short conversation with Eric, it turned out to be my fault

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Capture One also seems to read color matrices in a DNG - if you change them, output colors change. But something seems to be wrong with workflow in the program and colors are wrong (except for some cameras that natively produce dng, so they said on their forum)

                                                                                    Well, just to be accurate about it, manually selecting "embedded" is the only way under LR/ACR that the color profile in a DNG is used for a camera that is recognised. Under all other crcumstances e.g., using default settings, selecting a profle, etc, the color profile in the DNG isn't used. In versions of LR prior to the existence of profiles, the color setting are always overidden if the camera is recognised.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    C1's implementation of DNG has histoically been really flakey - it's gotten better over time, but still gives frequenctly gives odd results.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Sandy

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Sandy

                                                                                    • 39. Re: NEF processing in Adobe Camera Raw (ACR)
                                                                                      Alaeia Level 1

                                                                                      Hi,

                                                                                       

                                                                                      I never object to  healthy disagreement - but thanks for your careful wording.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      I use NX2 for initial post processing as it's very very good - however there are times when I want to use photoshop or LR3 for additional processing - I would just like LR3 and PS5 not to throw away all the work I've done.  I would like the LR3 catalog and bridge to show my images as they are and no tto undo my work.  The profile is embedded.  If shoddy software like MS photoviewer can use the NEF codec to display my images beautifully at 100% - why cant Adobe ?

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Thanks - Alaeia

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