19 Replies Latest reply on Sep 8, 2009 8:09 AM by the_wine_snob

    why hd files will not play correctly

    knife2u Level 1

      To begin Premiers CS 4 12/08 release.

       

      Problem: can not playback HD in either 720I or 1080i with out shuttering. This makes it difficult to edit in a proper work flow especially when voice sync is required. 720I is a little better but unworkable, 1080i does not even shutter just freeze frames. Can output to blue ray disk a plays perfect but hard to edit.

       

      Gear:

      asus commando board with 1000mgh FSbus

      3 gigs 800mgh ram ddr3

      ATI radeon video card with 512mgs or 1gig (problem is same with either card)

      Maxtor 7200rpm fireball drives with various cashes, hooked thru SATA, average of 50mb/s read time 15mb/s write time on 500mb test file (problem is same with either drive)

      600 watt power supply.

      C drive runs all programs and tmp files not allowed to D

      D drive runs all master files and tmp files allowed to D

      C and D are both more than half empty

      Vista 32 OS

       

      Have done all adobe updates, no improvement.

      Have done all Microsoft updates, no improvement.

       

      Questions:

      Can moving from a disk based drive to a solid state help?

      Thinking of OCZ 200mb/s read.

       

      Does the average data rate of each file have anything to do with this and are they cumulative along the time line?

      IE

      SD 3.8 and plays fine

      720 2.4 problems

      1080 4.9 problems

       

      When you play back is Premier reading and writing at the same time?

      IE

      Is it reading the master file while writing to the tmp in roaming?

       

      Note: 1080 files do not play back correctly in any 3rd party or adobe player

               720 files do play back correctly in any 3rd party player

        • 1. Re: why hd files will not play correctly
          D&R Films Level 1

          What codec are the files using? This is VERY important.

          What CPU?

           

          Sounds more like a CPU/System upgrade rather than an SSD.

          • 2. Re: why hd files will not play correctly
            Harm Millaard Level 7

            I'm not surprised you can't play HD with your setup.

             

            average of 50mb/s read time 15mb/s write time on 500mb test file (problem is same with either drive)

             

            is way too low for HD and very bad for SATA. HD requires around 200 MB/s sustained transfer rate.

             

            SSD will not help. You need a sizable raid array, at least 4 SATA disks in a raid0 or better for HD and a very good controller.

             

            Maybe a raid of SSD's will be possible when the TRIM function is fully implemented, but it is not yet.

            • 3. Re: why hd files will not play correctly
              Douglas R Wagner Level 1

              I just wanted to ask Harm for some additional technical input on his mentioning that a sustained rate of 200 MB/s is needed for HD.  You don't mean that that kind of rate is needed for some of the MPEG2 formats, like HDV or the HQ mode from Sony's solid state recording cams such as the PMW-EX series?  You're talking about when dealing with something with low compression, such as 4:2:2 at around 100 MB/s or higher?

               

              So far, I haven't read about what codec is being used by the person who posted this question.  Seems like that is really needed information.

               

              And I'd agree, if his drives are only getting 50 MB/s for read speeds, that suggests a quite old hard drive and an upgrade would be necessary.  Even my mom's cheapy Dell computer, 3 years old, with a single SATA drive (note that the drive was purchased this year, so it is a Baracuda 7200.12), gets sustained read speeds of well over 100 MB/s.

              • 4. Re: why hd files will not play correctly
                Harm Millaard Level 7

                HD is 4:4:4 UNCOMPRESSED. Hardly anyone uses that, most use HDV or AVCHD or XDCAM-EX or DVCProHD and in all these cases it is heavily compressed. But HD is what the OP CLAIMED to be editing. For that format you need a 200 MB/s sustained transfer rate.

                 

                Now if the OP does not know the difference between DV and HDV, which is only a single letter difference, that can lead to enormous differences in our replies and the same applies to HD and HDV. They are WORLDS apart, despite the single letter.

                 

                If you make mistakes like that, it is very misleading and in some cases can have severe consequences. About the same when using AC or DC to power your PC. Only a single letter difference but with devastating effects, the difference between heaven or hell. Just try it out with a 110V source, but call 911 beforehand to alert them to a computerfire in your house.

                • 5. Re: why hd files will not play correctly
                  Jim_Simon Level 8

                  HD is 4:4:4 UNCOMPRESSED.

                   

                  I disagree.  Uncompressed HD is that, but "HD" simply means "High Definition".  It is false to assume "Uncompressed" is implied.  HDV, AVCHD, DVCPRO HD, XDCAM, etc are all of them HD formats and can validly be called "HD".

                   

                  As for why the OPs HD videos are having trouble, more information is needed, such as that called for in the first response - the codec used.

                  • 6. Re: why hd files will not play correctly
                    Harm Millaard Level 7

                    Yeah, like MPEG can be a valid description for MPEG1, MPEG2, MP3, MP4, AVCHD, XDCAM-EX, HDCAM, AVC-i and the like.

                     

                    Are you advocating to abandon the further details? What a mess it will be! Why don't we leave out anything codec related in our posts?

                     

                    Why don't we post like this:

                     

                    On my workstation I can't get Adobe installed, but I know my OS is good.

                     

                    and forget that the workstation may be PC or MAC or Sun, that the OS may be Windows, OSX or Linux or Unix, just because

                     

                    a workstation means a workstation, and

                     

                    an OS means an OS.

                     

                    You are completely reversing your stance on for instance 1080i/30 versus 1080 60i, because it simply means interlaced and it is false to assume a different frame rate.

                    • 7. Re: why hd files will not play correctly
                      Jim_Simon Level 8

                      Yeah, like MPEG can be a valid description for MPEG1, MPEG2, MP3, MP4, AVCHD, XDCAM-EX, HDCAM, AVC-i and the like.

                       

                      Precisely.

                       

                      Are you advocating to abandon the further details?

                       

                      Not at all.  I am advocating abandoning the 'correction' of things which actually are correct.  If the exact flavor of "HD" isn't listed, go right ahead and ask for it.  But taking someone to task for calling HDV HD is incorrect, because HDV is one variety of HD video.

                       

                       

                      You are completely reversing your stance on for instance 1080i/30 versus 1080 60i

                       

                      I can see why you might go there, but there's a difference in the two scenarios.  HD, like MPEG, is an overarching description of various video formats/codecs, which can be further specified.  1080i60 is an incorrect way of writing a video format.

                      • 8. Re: why hd files will not play correctly
                        the_wine_snob Level 9

                        On my workstation I can't get Adobe installed, but I know my OS is good.


                        Harm,

                         

                        You lifted that directly from a recent post, didn't you?

                         

                         

                         

                        Hunt

                        • 9. Re: why hd files will not play correctly
                          Harm Millaard Level 7
                          I am advocating abandoning the 'correction' of things which actually are correct.

                           

                          Things that are incorrect, like capturing over firewire from a HDV camera which is ONLY HDV, versus ingesting from the same camera over HD-SDI which is HD, should be called exactly that. It is the difference of 8 bit versus 10 bit color space for example and should be handled differently and has different requirements.

                           

                          If anything should be corrected, it is the mistaken assumption that high definition equals HD. The first is resolution related, the second is about the format.

                           

                          DV is SD, but not all SD is DV, a cow is an animal, but not all animals are cows.

                          • 10. Re: why hd files will not play correctly
                            Jim_Simon Level 8
                            ingesting from the same camera over HD-SDI which is HD

                             

                            That would be "Uncompressed HD", and I agree should be called so when appropriate.  But both methods are properly called "HD" video.

                             

                            If anything should be corrected, it is the mistaken assumption that high definition equals HD.

                             

                            That's not a mistaken assumption.  HD in this case litterly stands for "High Definition".  You can't get any plainer than that.

                             

                            DV is SD, but not all SD is DV

                             

                            True, but irrelevant.  "HD" doesn't equate to a specific codec as does DV, HDV, AVCHD, etc.  HD equates to SD in that both define the overarching specs of many codecs.

                            • 11. Re: why hd files will not play correctly
                              Harm Millaard Level 7
                              But both methods are properly called "HD" video.

                               

                              as in 'high definition' (resolution) and not HD as in format. Let's try to keep the distiction in formats clear. 4:2:0 is quite different than 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 and it makes a hell of a difference for system requirements, keying and the like.

                              • 12. Re: why hd files will not play correctly
                                Jim_Simon Level 8

                                as in 'high definition' (resolution) and not HD as in format.

                                 

                                That's my point.  HD isn't a format in the sense that HDV and AVCHD are.  HD simlpy means High Definition, and nothing more.  It is incorrect to asign "Uncompressed", bit depth and chroma subsampling to the aronym "HD", because those things will vary with the format of HD being used.

                                • 13. Re: why hd files will not play correctly
                                  knife2u Level 1

                                  Like your style bow tie daddy and thought you may be able to help where adobe techs have failed since 12/08..

                                  After reading some of your posts I had the feeling you where the man for the question.

                                  I have sensed this all along but Adobe techs simply deny it and spend hours on the phone and email telling

                                  me over and over it is other things but not what I suspected from the beginning.

                                   

                                  Will implement a raid 0 set up and watch my problems go away.

                                  Any way to contact you more directly through the forum for the future.

                                   

                                  Many thanks.

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                                  ++++++++++++++++++++knife2u

                                  • 14. Re: why hd files will not play correctly
                                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                                    When we need him, we usually shine the "Harm Light" in the sky above Gotham City*, and he shows up.

                                     

                                    Hunt

                                     

                                    * this is a direct reference to the DC Comic's Batman, where the "Bat Light" would be projected in the sky above Gotham City, in times of peril.

                                     

                                     

                                    • 15. Re: why hd files will not play correctly
                                      knife2u Level 1

                                      Harm

                                       

                                      Set up the raid 0 with 1 tera drives and works great.

                                      Wondering though if you would reccomend partitioning

                                      into C and D? Is there a sustained speed loss?

                                      • 16. Re: why hd files will not play correctly
                                        Douglas R Wagner Level 1

                                        He has advised that partitioning doesn't gain you anything.  Instead, his advice has been to put your video files on a drive that's separate from your system drive.  Lots of others have mentioned that too, although separate drives are for when you really need top performance.  Not everyone has a RAID drive pair plus another SATA drive.

                                         

                                        If you just have your system and project files altogether on your RAID 0 drive, and things are okay as is, you're likely fine without any further changes.  I use HDV with 1080i footage, and RAID 0 for my system is by itself sufficient performance for working with the HDV format.  If you're working with XDCAM formats, I'm somewhat less sure about how things go if using the HQ mode, which ups the rate to 35 Mbps.  Probably should still work fine since most RAID performance is well beyond that, and since you say things are ok at present, I'm guessing you're not working with other more demanding codecs.

                                         

                                        You mentioned 720p, and 1080i before, so I'm assuming you have a pretty good hi-def camera if it can do more than just 1080i.  Just curious what your camera is and what formats you use to capture video?

                                        • 17. Re: why hd files will not play correctly
                                          Harm Millaard Level 7

                                          Partitioning a drive will not gain you anything. It will deteriorate performance and cause more wear and tear on your drive. Compare the situation where you have two cars (files) that need to be parked. If you have one garage (one raid volume) you open the door once and park both cars (files). Now consider you have modified your garage to be two single garages (two partitions) and you need to park both cars. Now you need to open two garage doors. Takes more time and does not help in any way.

                                           

                                          There is no sense in first combining 2 disks into one volume by raiding and then separating them by partitioning. Partitioning is useful if your organizational talents and the proper use of directories is lacking.

                                           

                                          In general ensure that disk activity is spread across as many physical disks as possible. That is the reason at least three disks or more are generally advised and with disk prices of less than $ 100 for 1 TB, price can no longer be an excuse.

                                           

                                          Spreading disk activity over many disks shows up in performance. A single disk may have an average read transfer of around 80 - 100 MB/s, a two disk raid0 array may have 150 - 170 MB/s, a 12 disk raid30 array (with 2 disks used for redundancy) will have over 850 MB/s average read transfer. This shows clearly that you will benefit from more physical disks.

                                          • 18. Re: why hd files will not play correctly
                                            the_wine_snob Level 9

                                            Harm,

                                             

                                            Totally OT in this thread, but would you please stop by THIS ONE. Seems that Howard might have a CS4 that reverted to trial with the CS4.1 update, and I know that you have a fix.

                                             

                                            Sorry for the interruption,

                                             

                                            Hunt