9 Replies Latest reply on Sep 2, 2009 3:51 AM by cvbotr

    colour innacuracies that I can not understand


      Hallo, I have a strange problem and no logical answer..Mmm..so it would be nice to hear what others think please.


      I have an Epson 3800, an apple mac intel and photoshop CS3. My monitor is calibrated spyder 3 elite - and all test strips and colours check as expected - good to very good on this screen.


      I have a special body of work that is toned. I have printed the same images on permajet Oyster, epson premium lustre, epson ultra smooth fine art and Hahnemuhle Baryta 325.


      The overall tones on image one weigh towards the bronze gold and the other reddish and deep reddish brown, in fact the dominant values are as follows: Image one = Hue sat lightness of 25 30 -29; and the other image has a colour fill layer of RGB 168 109 36 or HSB of 33 78 66.


      The second image prints dirty brown and too yellowish weigh off, and the first image always prints far too yellow. In fact although my third image is a soft pink in the highlights (almost akin to a toned lith) there is a distinct shift towards an extremely subtle yellow.  All these images are confirmed by a dominant yellow in the CMYK values of my images.  My spyder calibration curves also illicits a red-green adjustment over a blue which is distinctly lower for a 6500 at 125 luminance.  Now if my normal photographic images were showing a yellow colour cast then I would not be surprised and would not post this frustrating problem to you o te forum.  I am at a loss to understand all this in my toned images.


      I can not understand what is wrong, neither of the images are out of gamut at all. All my normal colour photos print fine. but my toned images are as if I operate a mr. Bean colour managed workflow and a monitor from the 60's.


      Does anyone know anything please - I would be grateful.

        • 1. Re: colour innacuracies that I can not understand
          John Danek Level 4

          It's going to be difficult to make any recommendations without knowing if you're using standard Epson drivers or the ColorBurst RIP.  And, you've got 4 different papers as reference without telling which were accurate and which were not.  Another thing, what tag is your RGB's?  There are so many variables to consider that there may not be enough space here to explain.


          If I were you, I'd look at a third party print calibration application and a spectrophotometer.  Calibrate each paper stock separately.  You say your monitor is calibrated, but that is just one part of the whole process of color calibration.  Add to that the fact that some colors that appear on your monitor will never print to match.  I bet the same image prints differently to each paper stock.  You have to create printer / paper profiles via a third party calibration and device and use them in the driver / RIP.

          • 2. Re: colour innacuracies that I can not understand
            cvbotr Level 1

            Hallo john, firstly thankyou for replying.  I am using only the epson driver.  I also cannot afford to buy RIP or spectrophotometer.  I know that you get shifts in colours with different papers but the different papers were to test on cold and warm printing methods.  The issue is that I can get perfectly matching prints or near as with normal colour photos.  But the toned images are way off. I do not know what you mean by tag?  But I am using adobe rgb1998 and edit in 16 bit  and print from 16 bit, i do not convert.  I also have noticed something for the first time.  I printed a couple of my colour fill layers out on photo paper and then compared them with the screen, they wre off, YET the strange thing was that when I compared them with the colour fill dialogue box in cs3 they were completely accurate.  Also the colour fill dialogue box is different from when you fill that colour on a sheet of white paper on screen in photoshop - this is strange isn't it?



            • 3. Re: colour innacuracies that I can not understand
              John Danek Level 4

              Not really.  It sounds like a layer issue.  Check your settings and experiment.  Just be careful with matching what you see on screen and what actually prints.  I find that a RIP is going to handle layers better than the standard driver.  You may also benefit from saving a copy to PDF and printing that.  It may take some ink and paper to find the solution.  Good luck.

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: colour innacuracies that I can not understand
                cvbotr Level 1

                OK, but before I start messing, please could you outline firstly what you mean by it might be a layer issue; and secondly how would printing from a pdf version make a difference.  the latter I have never heard anyone suggest before.



                • 5. Re: colour innacuracies that I can not understand
                  Rick McCleary Level 3



                  Printing images from CS3 to an Epson 3800 using their (very excellent) driver is a straightforward process. In fact, once an image has been created and finalized in Photoshop, the path from there to an accurate print is nothing more than following the breadcrumbs that have already been dropped by the software engineers. There's nothing to "play around" with; the workflow is very tightly defined. All of the "playing around" happens at the creative stage of the process, upstream in Photoshop (on a calibrated/profiled monitor), and even further upstream at the moment of image capture.


                  That said, the problems you're having are more than likely due to your veering from path described by the breadcrumbs. Basic, logical trouble-shooting will lead to the answer.


                  It sounds like a color management problem.

                  A question and two suggestions:


                  1) What do you mean by "...I do not convert..."?:

                  ... I am using adobe rgb1998 and edit in 16 bit  and print from 16 bit, i do not convert...


                  2) Make a screenshot of your Print... dialog box and post it. Also, 2 more screenshots of your driver dialog (where you choose Epson 3800) showing your Print Settings and Printer Color Management settings.


                  3) Make a screenshot of your Color Settings and post that as well. (Edit>Color Settings)


                  We'll get it fixed!


                  • 6. Re: colour innacuracies that I can not understand
                    cvbotr Level 1

                    Hallo Rick, what I meant by the convert, was that I do not convert from 16 bit down to 8 bit just before printing even though the printer can not print in 16 bits, so i print direct from cs3 still with layers showing and switched on, I do not flatten either.


                    Here are the screen shots:  I can only have three pictures - the missing was simply showed where I switched off driver colour management and said no colour ;NONE'

                    The system does will not upload the screenshots.  maybe you can ask what you need to know, but I can assure you that the colour management on my printing dialogue box and colour settings across the adobe suite are accurate.  (I've had enough experience here).  Do not know wht adobe forum does not let me upload, they were png's and very small files at that.

                    • 7. Re: colour innacuracies that I can not understand
                      John Danek Level 4

                      I get the sense that the layer settings may or may not be affecting output.  For instance, are you using ( New Layer > Mode ) "Lighten" or "Luminosity"?  The layer setting may be corrupting the color you're expecting.  This is a hunch, that's all.  I meant you might have to experiment in Photoshop to get the results you're looking for ( Layer > Mode > Saturation ).  I've read elsewhere that a ( Save As > Photoshop PDF ) PDF might print better in that it flattens layers and holds the file information together and can be easily interpreted by the print driver.  Nothing against Epson or its driver.

                      • 8. Re: colour innacuracies that I can not understand
                        p_d_f Level 2

                        I've seen similar anomalies printing to a 9900 that is fully custom profiled, but only printing to a specific Epson paper - Enhanced Matte. As far as I can figure out it seems to be related to the amount of optical brighteners that are present in the paper combined with a very transparent yellow ink. The only way I've ever found to get around this is to go at it the old fashioned way - trial and error until I get what I want. It's completely maddening when every other type of print spits out practically perfect on the first try.

                        • 9. Re: colour innacuracies that I can not understand
                          cvbotr Level 1

                          Ok it's not layer problems - I know that layers change colours - but that is the whole point in using them for much of my work.  If you go to my website you will see in the gallery "A Thing Seen" exactly what I mean, here they are how they are supposed to be - spot on.  They are all toned in variuos ways.  But the epson 3800 simply does not like toned images otherwise all my colour photography which by the way is on exhibition at this moment in Cobh, would be all wrong as well - NO they are all spot on,  My colour management is not perfect due to lack of money - but it is good enough for galleries, even though I know I could achieve a higher standard.  So guys I have to stree that this is not layers or pdf's or colour management, unless of course someone somewhere knows something brand new that I don't.  I am going to talk to fotospeed about this because they seem to know about inkjet systems - maybe the 3800 does have a flaw?  I really can only speculate at this moment.  Whatever, yellow appears - I say appears - to be the problem, too much of it detectable only in the toned images.  But it only appears to be yellow.


                          kind regards