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1. Re: High ISO: noise algorithm and default values
Jeff Schewe Sep 9, 2009 8:43 AM (in response to S4ENO)Sverre Edin wrote:
From the discussions in different forums it seems that Lightrooms bad reputation in this area is partly the user interface and partly the need for improvement in the algorithm?
While the UI and usability might be improved and certainly the underlaying algorithm can always use improvement, the single biggest factor in the supposed limitations of Camera Raw/Lightroom's noise reduction capabilities is actually that users don't really know how to use it and what a properly noise reduced image is supposed to look like.
In terms of use, you can't separate the noise reduction from the image sharpening in the Detail panel. If you don't have optimized sharpening, you won't get optimal noise reduction (other than color noise reduction which is pretty good at default). The single biggest factor with proper sharpening is setting the correct radius. As it relates to noise reduction, the Detail slider and the Luminance Noise slider are interconnected in a way most people don't realize. As you increase the noise reduction you can also increase the Detail slider setting to recover some of the loss of edge sharpness as long as you've properly set the radius: below 1 for high frequency images and above 1 for low. Working all 5 sliders in the Detail panel are required for optimal sharpening and noise reduction...
The next issue relating to noise reduction is many people don't have a clue what their images actually look like relative to the final output resolution. If you examine an image at 1:1 to adjust the sharpening and noise reduction, you need to understand that what you are seeing is scifi. If you are working on an LCD display whose actual PPI is about 100PPI (typical) and the image you are working on has a native resolution of 300PPI when set for output the when you view an image at 100% zoom, you are seeing the image 3 times as big as reality. So, at 3X, noise is gonna look pretty bad but when printed at 300PPI, it will be virtually invisible. Even more problematic is for high resolution images intended to be downsampled for use. One of the BEST noise reduction algorithms is Bicubic downsampling.
So, while you may "think" you have noise problems and you may "think" Camera Raw/Lightroom isn't on par with 3rd party noise reduction solutions, I would point out; that you need to understand what you are seeing–noise does not equal micro-detail, it's just noise and you need to properly adjust ALL the sliders in the Detail panel to optimize image detail.
If you understand the above and are practiced at the skill of optimizing image sharpening and noise reduction in Camera Raw/Lightroom then it would be useful to hear exactly what issue you are seeing and exactly what sort of images fail to achieve the optimal detail because of a limitation in the process.
Of, BTW, you do know that Camera Raw and Lightroom both already have the ability to automatically adjust the "Default" noise parameters based on the ISO of the capture and even the camera's serial number?
RTFM
:~)
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2. Re: High ISO: noise algorithm and default values
S4ENO Sep 9, 2009 9:57 AM (in response to Jeff Schewe)Thank you Jeff for a detailed explanation of this area. I am no expert and leave it to others to discuss possible improvements of the algorithm in LR.
However I can tell how the ordinary user feels about UI and usability. You get a worse result out of the box before you start adjusting sliders. It's possible to set new default values for each ISO value (and with auto ISO you get a lot) but you get no recommended settings to start with and this functionallity is hard to use.
Sverre
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3. Re: High ISO: noise algorithm and default values
Jeff Schewe Sep 9, 2009 8:21 PM (in response to S4ENO)S4ENO wrote:
You get a worse result out of the box before you start adjusting sliders.
While you may only have one or two cameras, Camera Raw/Lightroom must support over 200 (and growing) raw file formats. There just isn't time nor resources available to do through each and every camera at each an every ISO and produce optimal starting points for the user.
Really, all you need to do is go out and shoot a range of ISO (not a really easy task given the wide range of some cameras' ISOs) and assuming you got good exposures, go through and try to arrive as settings for each of the ISOs for your camera. The next lower ISO would work well as a visual guide since it's pretty easy to make a 1-1.5 stop ISO noise improvement. Once you get each ISO optimal, open each ISO image and set the defaults making sure you have the ISO preference check.
You could easily do this in a lazy afternoon and given the range of ISO you prolly would even want to do it on a really nice day. The subject you shoot should have some super high frequency image area (like tree leaves and or branches), some broad areas over flat surface and some really bright and some really dark areas. I've found that shooting houses will often give a range of textures...
The fact is, that while the camera makers may have better optimized "defaults" out of the box, it's pretty unreasonable to expect equal defaults from Camera Raw and Lightroom. Just to may "defaults" to have to worry about...
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4. Re: High ISO: noise algorithm and default values
S4ENO Sep 10, 2009 2:25 PM (in response to Jeff Schewe)I don't understand the logic that every user of a camera model should do this... This should only take 200 "lazy afternoons" to fix for every user buying V3. An expert will do a much better job then an ordinary user is able to. Adobe did a simmilar job with the camera profiles didn't they?
At least it should be possible to easily share a full set of ISO default values for a camera model.
Sverre
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5. Re: High ISO: noise algorithm and default values
Jeff Schewe Sep 10, 2009 10:21 PM (in response to S4ENO)S4ENO wrote:
I don't understand the logic that every user of a camera model should do this...
Just how many people do you think works on Camera Raw/Lightroom as it relates to ISO defaults? 1 person? 100 people?
Fact is there are about 3 people that would be spending the time to test out variations of various models of cameras...THREE *******' PEOPLE....
There are OVER two hundred Camera Raw file formats...are you really saying you are too lazy to hep yourself?
Really?
Jeeeeesh...how hard can it be if you want optimal results for yourself?
S4ENO wrote:
At least it should be possible to easily share a full set of ISO default values for a camera model.
That part is easy if somebody wants to take the time and effort...
Create a reasonable setting and save it out as a preset.
Interested users of the same camera could download the preset and test (either Mac or Windows).
If you like the results, simply save it as a "Camera Raw/Lightroom Default"...
Seriously, how hard is this that you can't do it yourself?
I meant, it really isn't rocket science.
This is a lot easier!!!
Seriously.....
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6. Re: High ISO: noise algorithm and default values
S4ENO Sep 11, 2009 12:48 AM (in response to Jeff Schewe)Lens corrections is another area very much wanted. There you have the same challenge if the 3 hard working ARC developers also should make corrections for several lenses of different brands...
Prehaps Adobe then should get more manpower to do this kind of adjustment for cameramodels and lenses? Or join forces with another company that can do that kind of job for them. Other companies out there already makes camera spesific noise adjustments or lens spesific adjustment. I for sure would be willing to pay some $ to get optimal start settings for my camera and my lenses. This is the last major selling point in my view to buy the camera specific raw converter and Adobe should get more customer by doing this or offer a "plug-in".
You Jeff are not a typical user. For an expert it's not always easy to understand what ordinary users finds difficult. To set up optimal default values of noise and sharpening for each ISO value is NOT easy for many of us both in terms of getting the right settings and UI. Please respect that.
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7. Re: High ISO: noise algorithm and default values
JW Stephenson Sep 12, 2009 3:41 PM (in response to S4ENO)Many of us have tried to use the LR noise reduction/sharpening because we REALLY don't want to use outside software - but in my opinion, the algorithms are just not up to the industry standard are at least are not flexible enough to allow us to obtain results similar to what we have come to expect from Noise Ninja or NeatImage. In any case, I think we just need to be patient and wait for Adobe to open up their SDK at the non-destructive editing level. Other software has recently been able to allow non-destructive plug-ins so I assume LR3 will likely include that feature as well.
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8. Re: High ISO: noise algorithm and default values
Jeff Schewe Sep 13, 2009 7:53 PM (in response to JW Stephenson)JW Stephenson wrote:
... so I assume LR3 will likely include that feature as well.
I wouldn't hold your breath.
:~)


