16 Replies Latest reply on Sep 16, 2009 5:32 AM by JETalmage
      • 1. Re: Let's face it. Illustrator just isn't that intuitive...or fast...or...
        JETalmage Level 6

        From the mentioned site:

         

        Corporations that buy and bury the products of others, just because they are unable to produce a better product, do harm to our society. Not only do they act unethically, they also obstruct progress in this country — all in the name of corporate profits!

         

        That kind of silly "victim speak" is all it takes to count me out of your "revolution."

         

        JET

        • 2. Re: Let's face it. Illustrator just isn't that intuitive...or fast...or...
          Wade_Zimmerman Level 6

          I believe that Illustrator was far more popular the FH and that before it was acquired by Adobe we had many many user who came to the AI forum saying they had to give up on FH and migrate too Illustrator, they never really discussed why but it seemed that stability and the lack of certain capabilities were the issues. The most important issue seemed that they no longer could get their work done.

           

          So they chose Illustrator as the replacement.

           

          Perhaps the OP was even one of them?

          • 3. Re: Let's face it. Illustrator just isn't that intuitive...or fast...or...
            Skullmaker Level 3

            I think competition is great for all of us; however, the last time I joined a program blindly was a disaster.

             

            The proof is that I wasted my money with Adobe CS3.

             

            So I learned to educate my self first, before I waste my money on a new program.

             

            But I will keep my eyes open for any alternative. Good luck!

            • 4. Re: Let's face it. Illustrator just isn't that intuitive...or fast...or...
              dezynboy Level 1

              Like it or hate it, there are still fans of Freehand nationally and internationally. Some of them (like myself) drank the coolaid and did the whole "Freehand to Illustrator" migration only to find the current Adobe offering lacking in many core features. There are numerous users out there that long for the conveniences of not having to choose a color space when they start working on a file, want one contextual object pane to edit properties of an object, appreciate the elegance of paste inside, multiple pages, as well as many other features. The list could go on and on but this isn't about the features.

               

              Adobe's astroturf campaign of systematically converting the Freehand "heathens" has always smacked of arrogance and lack of customer focused leadership. It's the equivilant to "Your revolution is over, Freehand users. Condolences. The bums lost. My advice is to do what your parents did; get a real vector drawing application, sir. The bums will always lose." My apologies for the blatant Big Lebowski ripoff, but you get my point. Any forced conversion is going to have a backlash.  Astroturf is an apt description as it is the antethesis of a true grass roots effort in which people (we as customers), choose what is best for us and aren't being force fed something we feel is inferior. By allowing Freehand to rot on the vine as Adobe has chosen to do, they are succeeding in their business goal of killing off the competition. The problem is that there are people out there who care deeply about their application and just want it to live. As a company, Adobe is losing the battle on the ground if you treat your customers this way. They are alienating the same people they are trying to convert.

               

              I've spoken to some of the creators of Freehand, who have told me personally that Macromedia had stopped development on Freehand before it was sold to Adobe. My response to this is why not release it to the public then? People still enjoy the product. Adobe needs to do itself a favor and generate some good will for crying out loud. After the recent news that they're not supporting CS3 in Snow Leopard and forcing people to upgrade to CS4 to get support, they could use some positive PR. But again, I digress. It isn't about Adobe's status with Freehand users. To us, they've already alienated us by not actively listening to what the community wanted. Sure they talked a good game, put some blogs up like John Nack's etc., but all we heard was a defense of their decisions. Bottom line was, they were going in a direction already and it didn't really matter much what supporters wanted.

               

              The best that Freehand users can hope for at this point is that Adobe release the product and allow a community of open source developers work on it. Chances are, they won't do that though. After all, this is business. We're just passionate users. Even after 5 years of development inactivity, lack of intel support and maintenance updates, the application still has it's place in many a designer's workflow today.

               

              Maybe that is why Adobe covets Freehands users. Unfortunately, Adobe has yet to learn that you can't force someone to love you just because you want them to. And as we all know, if you love someone you must set them free.

               

              Free Freehand. We don't belong where we're not wanted.

              • 5. Re: Let's face it. Illustrator just isn't that intuitive...or fast...or...
                Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

                Forgive me, but I don't get it. Frankly, neither vector drawing program on this planet is particularly well thought out nor streamlined. Illustrator stinks. Freehand stinks. CorelDraw stinks. Inkscape stinks. Xara stinks. Okay, they all stink in different areas, but that doesn't really change anything. So from where I sit, you are just lobbying to revive a quirky product because you are fed up with another quirky product and the company behind it. That, to me, is more than just a tiny bit irrational. I could understand the motivation to raise funds, if there were something attainable in it, but Adobe releasing the source code of a program they paid good money for and of which they have technologies and methods already transplanted elsewhere? Well, maybe in 2426, when today's computers run in emulation on the Enterprise's holodeck...

                 

                Mylenium

                • 6. Re: Let's face it. Illustrator just isn't that intuitive...or fast...or...
                  [scott] Level 6

                  Some people resist change kicking and screaming. They'll fight it with every last breath they have.

                   

                  Others welcome change and see it as an opportunity for growth and knowledge.

                   

                  People are who they are. They won't change.

                  • 7. Re: Let's face it. Illustrator just isn't that intuitive...or fast...or...
                    JETalmage Level 6

                    > Like it or hate it, there are still fans of Freehand nationally and internationally.

                     

                    And I'm one.

                     

                    > Some of them (like myself) drank the coolaid and did the whole "Freehand to Illustrator" migration only to find the current Adobe offering lacking in many core features.

                     

                    A few others, long before the Adobe acquisition, saw that Macromedia had begun to let FreeHand's historically better development falter. They even saw FreeHand being corrupted by silly and needless concessions to Illustrator's hideous interface. (The start of this was when the idiotic white pointer appeared.) Macromedia lost interest in FreeHand around version 9. And it showed. Macromedia was putting all its resources into its runaway success, Flash.

                     

                    (Adobe, of course, seems to be similarly losing interest in 2D vector drawing. Face it: None of the big players see this market segment as their cash cow of the future. Because, well, it clearly isn't.)

                     

                    Personally, when it became clear that Macromedia marketers thought that the thing for FreeHand to emulate was Illustrator--well, I answered with my wallet and effectively said "if that's what you think the direction of FH development should be, I might as well beat you to it."

                     

                    In short, Macromedia lost (or just abandoned) the whole concept of FreeHand as a better-thought-out drawing program (which it always was).

                     

                    > There are numerous users out there that long for the conveniences of...[the list is very long]

                     

                    And I'm one. But FreeHand, while far better than Illustrator in most things that matter, is still far from the kind of serious, industrial-strength Bezier drawing program we still have yet to see. I was saying this for years before anyone heard of the Adobe acquisition.

                     

                    > want one contextual object pane to edit properties of an object....

                     

                    Adobe (moreover, too many Adobe users) just don't get the Inspector concept and the way it makes doing everything in the program more efficient. They never have, because they're still stuck in archaic interface schemes of the 80s. Again: blame the change-resistant user base, not Adobe.

                     

                    > I've spoken to some of the creators of Freehand, who have told me personally that Macromedia had stopped development on Freehand before it was sold to Adobe

                     

                    Yeah, you and everyone else. And this is news?

                     

                    > My response to this is why not release it to the public then?

                     

                    Fercryin'outloud, BECAUSE IT IS NOT A PIECE OF PUBLIC PROPERTY! (Here is where the "morally-outraged-let's-sue-somebody" crowd loses me.) If Chrysler found the wherewithal to buy BMW and then closed the BMW plant, would you sue Chrysler, just because you once owned a BMW?

                     

                    Adobe BOUGHT Macromedia. It can do what it wants with it. You DIDN'T buy FreeHand. It's not yours. And you can't use courts (or user forums or silly websites) to steal it.

                     

                    > The best that Freehand users can hope for at this point is that Adobe release the product and allow a community of open source developers work on it.

                     

                    If that's the best FreeHand users can hope for, then FreeHand users are every bit as short-sighted as the most rabid lap-dog Illustrator devotee.

                     

                    > We're just passionate users

                     

                    And what? That excuses and authenticates whatever you say or "feel"? History is full of tyrants and activists and "movement starters" who were passionate. They were "passionate" when they burned witches at the stake. Your (angry) passion is misdirected.

                     

                    > Frankly, neither vector drawing program on this planet is particularly well thought out nor streamlined. Illustrator stinks. Freehand stinks. CorelDraw stinks. Inkscape stinks. Xara stinks.

                     

                    Egads! A voice of reason.

                     

                    > Some people resist change kicking and screaming. They'll fight it with every last breath they have.

                     

                    And I've never seen a more absurdly amusing manifestation of that than the long-entrenched, blinders-wearing Illustrator user base which invariably screams bloody murder at the merest suggestion that a proven FreeHand advantage would benefit Illustrator--until of course, some half-baked version of it finally does appear in Illustrator--then they think it was Illustrator's idea, and therefore the best thing since the discovery of the Bezier curve.

                     

                    JET

                    • 8. Re: Let's face it. Illustrator just isn't that intuitive...or fast...or...
                      [scott] Level 6

                      You are mistaken, James. I've never stated Freehand wasn't better in some areas. I've merely gotten tired, at times, of the whining from Freehand users.

                      • 9. Re: Let's face it. Illustrator just isn't that intuitive...or fast...or...
                        Doug Katz Level 4

                        And if you aren't yet tired of this tired and tiring debate, just read this thread.

                         

                        (Former passionate FreeHand user who would love to see Illustrator adopt many of its features but is exhausted by effete discussions like these)

                        • 10. Re: Let's face it. Illustrator just isn't that intuitive...or fast...or...
                          dezynboy Level 1

                          It's moved beyond the debate stage at this point, i'm afraid. As I stated before, the bums (we Freehand users) lost.

                           

                          What I'm questioning is do companies like Adobe have the right to disregard their inherited customer base as they have done? I've heard the argument that yes, of course they do - they OWN the software. Well, yeah, but they do not own the people that still value it. They do not own the passion, loyalty, excitement, that every Freehand user pines about every time they get on these forums.

                           

                          This argument isn't about Illustrator vs. Freehand. It is about customers and their rights.

                          This is something every one of you should care about. Isn't your investment of time in a particular application worth something beyond simply "switch or be left behind?" Don't we all have applications that we just couldn't live without or is the relationship between customer & software creator tenuous at best? Who knows. All I can say is Adobe has crossed a line for me and for many others, and it is unfortunate. Unfortunate that they couldn't turn a golden opportunity to really open up to their inherited customer base instead of alienating them.

                           

                          • 11. Re: Let's face it. Illustrator just isn't that intuitive...or fast...or...
                            Wade_Zimmerman Level 6

                            C'est la Vie!

                             

                            You get born…it comes with no guarantees!

                             

                            After nine months of waiting in total darkness you would think…but no!

                             

                            You think your getting a bum deal you should hear my story, I didn't 

                            even get to keep my own name.

                            • 12. Re: Let's face it. Illustrator just isn't that intuitive...or fast...or...
                              JETalmage Level 6
                              ...they OWN the software...Well, yeah, but they do not own the people that still value it. They do not own the passion, loyalty, excitement...It is about customers and their rights.

                               

                              Yeah.

                               

                              That's why I sued the Beatles when they broke up.

                               

                              JET

                              • 14. Re: Let's face it. Illustrator just isn't that intuitive...or fast...or...
                                dezynboy Level 1

                                The difference between your Beatles reference and this is that they made a decision to break up. Here, we're talking about a large software company buying and killing a popular software application. Suing the Beatles is analogous to suing the original programmers who created Freehand, which doesn't make sense. Nice try though.

                                 

                                Unlike software, their music will always exist beyond whatever platform is available at the time. We'll see where this freefreehand.org thing goes and if after time it doesn't end up anywhere, maybe it'll inspire some folks to create the next Illustrator killer so Adobe can buy up that company and effectively kill it as well. :-)

                                 

                                Thanks for entertaining the discussion everyone. I enjoyed it.

                                Freehand is dead. Long live Freehand!

                                • 15. Re: Let's face it. Illustrator just isn't that intuitive...or fast...or...
                                  [scott] Level 6

                                  How can you blame Adobe for "killing" Freehand when even Macromedia stopped development on it years before the buyout?

                                   

                                   

                                  I'm upset that Ford no longer sells buggies... really.. c'mon.

                                  • 16. Re: Let's face it. Illustrator just isn't that intuitive...or fast...or...
                                    JETalmage Level 6
                                    Unlike software, their music will always exist beyond whatever platform is available at the time....

                                    Yeah.

                                     

                                    That's one of the reasons why I sued 'em. I licenced their music. Paid good money for it. The licence agreement they made me sign didn't say anything about a time limit.

                                     

                                    But, of course, none of that really matters anyway, cause I was very passionate.

                                     

                                    So you can imagine my outrage when the next release broke compatibility with my $3500 Yamaha component stereo system and my $1500 TEAC turntable. See, I was not only passionate, I was a passionate audiophile.

                                     

                                    Well! You know the rest. Then it was cassette tapes. Then it was CDs. What really got my walrus was, after every self-respecting audiophile had to switch to iPods, guess what? Couldn't buy Beatles musing on iTunes. Needless to say, I was passionately outraged. There I was, dead in the hole in the ocean, without being able to use the music I had licensed. My passion really took off then, I'll tell you! (I almost started a web page!)

                                     

                                    But the customer abuse didn't stop there! Have you seen the prices of Beatles RockBand accessories? I mean, c'mon! That stupid flying Z Gretch just doesn't gently weep like a Beatles-authentic Rickenbacker! But they're gouging me a hundred bucks!

                                     

                                    So I'm right there with ya. This Beatles stuff should be public-domain!

                                     

                                    You've got my passion all riled up! I think I'm gonna sue 'em again! Bring your lawyer and I'll bring mine!

                                     

                                    JET