29 Replies Latest reply on Oct 26, 2009 2:37 AM by Chef Poquet-mTkrSO

    Support for OS X Spaces

    Chef Poquet-mTkrSO

      Please could we have support for OS X Spaces in CS4?

       

      Spaces works with all of my other apps (except Lightroom).

        • 1. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
          Level 7

          I believe you mean "When will Apple update Spaces to support applications not written at Apple"?

          We've done all we can, the rest is up to the Spaces developers at Apple.

          And we can't comment on Apple's release schedules.

          • 2. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
            Chef Poquet-mTkrSO Level 1

            I have a lot of non-Apple apps and all of them work well with Spaces.

             

            If Adobe is going to use non-standard interface elements, it should make sure they are compatible with the OS on which they are destined to run. It is not a good choice based on cost/benefits for the sake of productivity. It would have been better to stick with an interface that worked, sacrificing a few whistles, for the greater benefit that Spaces provides.

             

            I used to be a big fan of Adobe, and I still would like to be, but some of Adobe's recent software releases seem at odds with their past excellence.

            • 3. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
              Level 7

              "Chef" -- I'm sorry, but you're completely off base.

               

              Photoshop uses standard OS controls and elements, in very standard ways.

               

              But Spaces has a lot of well known bugs, and really doesn't work well with non-Apple apps.

              It is up to the Spaces team at Apple to deliver on their promises to make Spaces work with all applications.

              • 4. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                photon poet Level 1
                Photoshop uses standard OS controls and elements, in very standard ways.

                Clearly this doesn't include the Application Frame, Application Bar, Panels, Document Windows, or Multitabbed Frankenwindow. None of these behave like anything else on my Mac does.

                • 5. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                  Level 7

                  But they are standard OS controls/widgets.

                   

                  Apple's applications also show a wide variety of appearances and behaviors.

                  • 6. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                    photon poet Level 1

                    I've never seen an Apple application window lose its title bar, or forget that it has focus, or not realise that it has lost focus, or weld itself to the window next to it.

                     

                    In my experience it's only Adobe apps. And it's only CS4, not CS2. And it's only after you started using windows that don't look or act like real windows.

                     

                    They well may be built of standard OS controls/widgets (and Chris, you're more likely in the know on this than I am), but they behave like bodgy proprietary windows.

                     

                    And don't get me started on CS4 panels

                    • 7. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                      Level 7

                      I don't love the design, either.

                      But they are standard OS widgets, and behave almost exactly like Apple's tabbed interfaces.

                      • 8. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                        Chef Poquet-mTkrSO Level 1

                        Adobe's new interface design is a recipe for disaster.

                         

                        As it turns out, not only are the new window types incompatible with Spaces, they misbehave with Exposé, Apple's screen shot utility (cmd-shift-4), and thumbnails do not show in the Dock.

                         

                        I also have noticed that Acrobat 9 does not have any of these problems even though it has advanced window features such as Split View. The same goes for Adobe Bridge CS4, it works perfectly well with all of the above-mentioned OS features. (Acrobat and Bridge do not feature the new resize box which is telling.)

                         

                        I present the following as food for thought:

                         

                        Exhibit A: An example of a Photoshop CS4 window when highlighted under Exposé (the whole window should be blue).

                         

                        Exhibit B: An example of a Bridge CS4 window when highlighted under Exposé

                         

                        Exhibit C: An example of a Photoshop CS4 window screenshot using cmd-shift-4 (the window bar should be included).

                         

                        Is it really worth making Adobe look foolish, Adobe programmers incompetent, users frustrated, and CS sales plummet for the sake of a few frivolous interface tweaks?

                        • 9. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                          Reynolds (Mark) Level 4

                          Compliments to the Chef - very nice bread indeed.

                           

                          Adobe programmers incompetent, users frustrated, and CS sales plummet for the sake of a
                          few frivolous interface tweaks

                           

                          … but I think you may have overbaked that one, its going to take a lot more that a few minor interface problems to challenge Adobes user base.

                           

                          Exibit D: Adobe and Apple's somewhat resentful standoff on these issues. Why don't you guys just sit down with a coffee sometime?

                          • 10. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                            photon poet Level 1

                            Reynolds (Mark) wrote:

                             

                            … but I think you may have overbaked that one, its going to take a lot more that a few minor interface problems to challenge Adobes user base.


                             

                            I've been a photoshop user since version 3.

                            In those days I was a happy user, impressed with Adobe and their work.

                            Now I swear at Adobe apps every day, because the interface is so badly thought-out and poorly implemented.

                             

                            Sure, it's a powerful suite, but it's getting more and more painful to use. Unless CS5 reverses the slide into klunky user-unfriendliness, CS4 is the last Adobe product I'll use, buy or recommend.

                             

                            Actually, I've already stopped recommending it. Pixelmator is plenty powerful enough for most uses, and a joy to use, and much cheaper.

                             

                            (Mark), the interface problems are already more than minor.

                             

                            [edited to add:]

                            I say this as someone who wants Adobe to succeed, to get their mojo back, to make their software great again and not merely feature packed.

                            • 11. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                              Chef Poquet-mTkrSO Level 1

                              Reynolds...thanks for the feedback. Overbaked or not, I offer dishes with salt and pepper for people to season as they see fit.

                               

                              Photon:

                               

                              >I've been a photoshop user since version 3.

                               

                              Ditto! Adobe used to be my favourite company. Those were what I like to refer to as the "Glory Days" of Adobe...prior to CS.

                               

                              The two apps that I mentioned earlier that come with CS4 and are fully OS X compatible, Acrobat and Bridge, are Cocoa. Does this mean that ALL Adobe Cocoa apps are fully OS X compatible? Unfortunately not. Lightroom is also a Cocoa app and it definitely does not play well with Leopard.

                               

                              See below:

                               

                              Exhibit E: Lightroom screenshot (all the panels should be visible).

                               

                              Exhibit F: Lightroom in Exposé (should be solid blue).

                               

                              P.S. It is going to take more than mere coffee to get Adobe and Apple together, try a double cappuccino. What does Adobe hope to gain by using us as pawns in its political battles?

                              • 12. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                                Reynolds (Mark) Level 4

                                I agree in principle that the 'glory days' were prior to CS. (There may be reasons for this to do with a boosted development cycle and all the pressures that this must cause) .

                                 

                                On the subject of the interface … Its not a lazy interface. Meaning that some intelligence is assumed on the part of users - the tradeoff is that you have a fully customizable, flexible system, the way it should be. I agree that there are problems in CS4 with the panel docking, and now quite complex "surface" appearance which seems to cause people problems. There will always be some inevitable tradeoff between enormous feature set (which photoshop GLADLY has) and accessibility of that feature set. In general I think this is not too badly handled at present, when you actually think through the problems that they face.

                                 

                                What Chris is driving at I think with Spaces is that a lot of other non Adobe apps DO have problems in that they don't update properly. But these problems seem to be worse in the Adobe apps, where interfaces appear but content doesn't, which is a very confusing problem.

                                • 13. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                                  Chef Poquet-mTkrSO Level 1

                                  > (There may be reasons for this to do with a boosted development cycle and all the pressures that this must cause) .

                                   

                                  Precisely my reasoning.

                                   

                                  >What Chris is driving at I think with Spaces is that a lot of other non Adobe apps DO have problems in that they don't update properly. But these problems seem to be worse in the Adobe apps, where interfaces appear but content doesn't, which is a very confusing problem.

                                   

                                  I agree, but the vast majority of these problems would be solved if Adobe simply used compatible interface elements (it would actually be less work for Adobe programmers), like it does with Acrobat, Bridge, and the all of its software prior to CS3.

                                   

                                  Adobe's market monopoly is going to its head.

                                  • 14. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                                    Level 7

                                    Chef - yes, and we have bugs open with Apple about those problems with Spaces and Expose.

                                    BTW - you can see the same problems in other, non-Adobe applications, and in a few Apple applications.

                                    • 15. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                                      Level 7

                                      Cocoa is not magic pixie dust.  And you don't seem to know which apps are Cocoa and which are not.

                                       

                                      Adobe wants this stuff to work.

                                      Adobe goes out of our way to make things work right on MacOS (we spend a disproportionate amount of time working around Apple bugs).

                                      But Adobe cannot fix bugs in Apple's code.

                                      Only Apple can fix the bugs in their code.

                                       

                                      Adobe has identified the bugs in Apple's code, submitted the bugs to Apple to be fixed, and is waiting for them to be fixed just like you are.

                                      Really, we can't fix bugs in Apple's code.  What is so hard to understand about that?

                                      • 16. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                                        Level 7

                                        I agree, but the vast majority of these problems would be solved if Adobe simply used compatible interface elements (it would actually be less work for Adobe programmers), like it does with Acrobat, Bridge, and the all of its software prior to CS3.

                                         

                                        Adobe is using OS standard interface elements wherever possible.

                                         

                                        And how do you know what is more or less work?

                                        What exactly is your claim based on?

                                         

                                        And it still seems that you can't tell which apps are Cocoa, which are Carbon, and which are bastardized mixes with more custom controls than Photoshop.

                                         

                                         

                                        I'm sorry that you are seeing bugs in Space and Expose.  Adobe did everything we could to be compatible.  But for OS level services that are supposed to be invisible to the application, both seem to have a large number of bugs that have been excruciatingly slow to be fixed.  If you want bugs in Spaces and Expose fixed:   please talk to Apple.  It's their code, and only Apple can fix the bugs in their code.

                                        • 17. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                                          Chef Poquet-mTkrSO Level 1

                                          >Cocoa is not magic pixie dust.  And you don't seem to know which apps are Cocoa and which are not.

                                           

                                          I did not say that it was pixie dust. My mistake, Bridge is not Cocoa only Lightroom and Acrobat are (or at least are using Cocoa elements [I seriously doubt that Adobe implemented a cut buffer in Lightroom]). The point I was hinting at was that Adobe has scrambled both Cocoa and Carbon beyond recognition.

                                           

                                          >And how do you know what is more or less work?

                                           

                                          >What exactly is your claim based on?

                                           

                                          The AdobeOwl and owlcanvas frameworks include more than 15MB of compiled code, which represents a staggering amount of source code—someone had to write all that—for the CS4 interface.

                                           

                                          >...please talk to Apple.  It's their code, and only Apple can fix the bugs in their code.

                                           

                                          So Apple has to adapt its OS to the whims of application developers? What hubris!

                                           

                                          >Adobe has identified the bugs in Apple's code, submitted the bugs to Apple to be fixed, and is waiting for them to be fixed just like you are.

                                          >Really, we can't fix bugs in Apple's code.  What is so hard to understand about that?

                                           

                                          Bridge has a highly customised interface with tabs, rearrangeable panels and whatnot...is Carbon (like Photoshop) but is fully Mac compatible.

                                           

                                          I am asking that Adobe avoid using code that is not compatible, the same way any developer would.

                                           

                                          "I am sorry sir, but you are going to have to talk to Microsoft if you want our website to work in Internet Explorer."

                                           

                                          Next time you buy an OS, make sure that it bears the "Adobe Compatible" sticker.

                                           

                                          I would be embarrassed to publish a piece of software capable of this:

                                          Exhibit G: Note that the Photoshop window is active yet somehow the title bar managed to get behind two Safari windows, only Adobe apps are capable of this.

                                          • 18. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                                            Suede01

                                            I've been reading the various Spaces-related threads with interest.  The only app that seems to not "understand" the limitations imposed on it by Spaces is Photoshop (I'm using CS4).

                                            I've recently upgraded to Snow Leopard and the same problem persists with Photoshop acting strangely in Spaces.  Illustrator and Bridge stay in the Space I've assigned them to and work perfectly.

                                            Yesterday Photoshop opened 3 images that I clicked on, one in the wrong Space and 2 in the correct Space - it was bizarre.

                                            I've found that the one way to make sure that it works correctly is to go to the Space that it is supposed to be in and then open the images, either through File -> Open or through Bridge.

                                            I can't comment on the progamming/coding being the issue, as I am not a programmer.

                                            • 19. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                                              Reynolds (Mark) Level 4

                                              I think this may be a situation where its best to just takes Chris' word on it folks. He wouldn't be claiming these things with such force, if it weren't the case.

                                               

                                              Chef - by the way - you do know about the Pressing F key three times to reset the workspace? - this effectively resets the Spaces, graphic update issue. Sometimes just hitting TAB twice also sorts it. Its a minor glitch that can be sorted with a very easy workaround, its not the end of the world

                                              • 20. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                                                photon poet Level 1

                                                Reynolds (Mark) wrote:

                                                 

                                                I think this may be a situation where its best to just takes Chris' word on it folks. He wouldn't be claiming these things with such force, if it weren't the case.

                                                 

                                                I for one accept Chris' sincerity, I now believe that Photoshop's various windows, panels, application frames, applications bars are built from standard OS components.

                                                 

                                                Also, I accept the evidence of my own eyes and the "Spaces has bugs" defence doesn't overturn the "Photoshop windows are flaky" criticism, when I wrote, upthread:

                                                 

                                                photon poet wrote:

                                                 

                                                I've never seen an Apple application window lose its title bar, or forget that it has focus, or not realise that it has lost focus, or weld itself to the window next to it.

                                                 

                                                In my experience it's only Adobe apps. And it's only CS4, not CS2. And it's only after you started using windows that don't look or act like real windows.

                                                 

                                                They well may be built of standard OS controls/widgets (and Chris, you're more likely in the know on this than I am), but they behave like bodgy proprietary windows.

                                                 

                                                And don't get me started on CS4 panels

                                                 

                                                I failed (my bad) to mention that I don't use Spaces. None of the Adobe window flakiness I see can be attributed to Spaces.

                                                 

                                                It's not really about what components are used, it's really not about whether it's Carbon or Cocoa, 32 bits or 64. It's how these building blocks are used, it's whether the whole is solid and dependable or creaky and ugly.

                                                 

                                                Frankenstein's monster too was built from standard components.

                                                • 21. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                                                  Reynolds (Mark) Level 4
                                                  Frankenstein's monster too was built from standard components.

                                                  If memory serves, Frankensien's monster was built from components dug up somewhere. Regardless of any engineering faults, he had a heart, and that was the point of the story.

                                                  • 22. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                                                    photon poet Level 1

                                                    Mark, you're pushing my metaphor harder that it likes, but all's fair

                                                    • 23. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                                                      Level 7

                                                      >>...please talk to Apple.  It's their code, and only Apple can fix the bugs in their code.

                                                       

                                                      >So Apple has to adapt its OS to the whims of application developers? What hubris!

                                                       

                                                      What "whims of application developers"?  Where did you come up with that B.S?

                                                      Photoshop uses standard OS widgets/elements -- and yet a features supplied with the OS that is supposed to work with all applications fails to work.  Why?  Because Apple has bugs in their code.  It is up to Apple to make Apple's features in Apple's code work correctly.

                                                       

                                                      Why are you insisting that application developers go out of their way to avoid all the bugs in the operating system AND other application supplied with the operating system?

                                                       

                                                      I am asking that Adobe avoid using code that is not compatible, the same way any developer would.

                                                      We aren't using any "code that is not compatible".

                                                      Of course, we don't know exactly why Spaces doesn't work - since Apple doesn't document the nature of the bugs in their code.

                                                       

                                                      "I am sorry sir, but you are going to have to talk to Microsoft if you want our website to work in Internet Explorer."

                                                      WTF?  That's not even remotely analogous.

                                                      This is more like "This web site is coded to standards, appears correctly with all browsers except IE 4.1.0.  We expect that IE 4.1.1 will fix the coding mistake introduced in 4.1 and render the site correctly again."

                                                       

                                                      This is all about bugs in Apple's code, that only Apple can fix.

                                                      Adobe cannot do anything about bugs in Apple's code. (it's not like there's a Spaces API that we can avoid calling, or call with different arguments -- all of it is in Apple's code, and Apple has to make their code work correctly)

                                                      • 24. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                                                        Level 7

                                                        There are no limitations placed on applications by Spaces -- Spaces is invisible to applications.

                                                        Applications just run and see the desktop area and displays reported by the OS and use them.

                                                        Spaces attempts to manipulate those behind the scenes, invisibly.  Unfortunately, Spaces has some bugs that cause things to go into the wrong place, and things to draw in the wrong place, and windows to look funny or not draw at all (and I'm describing a professional Apple application here, not Photoshop).

                                                        • 25. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                                                          Level 7

                                                          You'll notice that I'm not denying *some flakiness*.  Yeah, we have some problems in our code as well.  But some of what you are seeing is also due to OS bugs that we could not work around, and remain unfixed to date.

                                                          • 26. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                                                            photon poet Level 1

                                                            Chris Cox wrote:

                                                             

                                                            You'll notice that I'm not denying *some flakiness*.  Yeah, we have some problems in our code as well.  But some of what you are seeing is also due to OS bugs that we could not work around, and remain unfixed to date.

                                                            I didn't your non-denial at all.

                                                             

                                                            I'm glad you don't deny it. I hope those with the power to make improvements don't deny it either - and the same goes for Apple.

                                                            • 27. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                                                              Chef Poquet-mTkrSO Level 1

                                                              Chris, why can't you use the CS2 code? That didn't have any problems.

                                                              • 28. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                                                                Level 7

                                                                Chef - perhaps if we know what bug in Spaces treated CS2 and CS3/CS4 differently and exactly how/why it treated them differently, maybe we could make changes to work around the bugs in Spaces.  But we don't know what the bugs are in Apple's Spaces code (because we don't have their source code to debug). Only Apple knows the details of their bugs and how to fix them.

                                                                • 29. Re: Support for OS X Spaces
                                                                  Chef Poquet-mTkrSO Level 1

                                                                  Chris (& others),

                                                                   

                                                                  I have been away from this for several days, and just now I reviewed the thread.

                                                                   

                                                                  From a fresh perspective, I am a little dismayed that my comments come across as presumptuous and unnecessarily argumentative--for which, indeed, I am sorry.

                                                                   

                                                                  I guess I let my aggressive side get the better of me in focusing on bugs and code, depersonalizing real subjects (Adobe personnel) along the way. Needless to say, Chris, I was fast and loose with words like "hubris," "incompetent," "monopoly," "embarrassing," etc., which did nothing to improve the exchange or get a resolution. Sorry, again.

                                                                   

                                                                  Finally, Mark is certainly right that it this bug is not the end of the world. Thank you for that! It is good to keep things in perspective....