36 Replies Latest reply on Nov 5, 2009 5:51 AM by jswist109

    Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files

    jswist109

      I have a 64 page publication which contains a placed .eps file on each page.  (The .eps files are the output of a music notation program and average about 60KB).   I have a new computer with a fast quad pentium processor.  It takes 10 minutes to export a pdf file (It took 45 minutes on my old computer!).

       

      The time is spent in the first phase, where the little window says "Sending page 1,2...etc.  The pages crawl by. PageMaker is CPU bound.

       

      PDF export option or distiller settings appear to have little affect on this.

       

      It was my understanding that eps files, ps files, and pdf files are all similar in structure.  What is taking so long here?

       

      10 minutes is not a lot in the scheme of things right now but this is part of a much bigger book and I am concerend about how much time this process is going to take when we are up to 600 pages.

        • 1. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
          jswist109 Level 1

          Some clarification of the previous post.   It does not appear that PageMaker is CPU bound - I see about 11 % CPU from pm70.exe.   No other process using noticable time.

           

          Yet there does not appear to be any hard drive activity either, so there appears to be some large amount of stall or wait time taken by something. If for example, PageMaker had to interact with another process while it was making its .ps file, there could be something afoul in the intertask communication.

          • 2. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
            BigJohnD Level 3

            Are all the files local?

             

            10 minutes does seem a bit long - how does it compare when creating other PDFs from PM?  What sort of CPU and RAM do you have?

             

             

            Iechyd da! John
            17:57 09/10/2009 BST

            • 3. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
              jswist109 Level 1

              The files are all local (matters not whether linked or imbedded).

               

              Quad Pentium 2.4Ghz

               

              3GB memory (RAM)

               

              Using Export PDF from PageMaker

               

              Other publications without this kind of eps files in them build pdf files at leastt 10 times faster.

               

              Jim

              • 4. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                BigJohnD Level 3

                The PC is easily powerful enough.

                 

                Try un-embedding the images, because embedding makes the PM files huge and slow.

                 

                http://bigjohnd.org.uk/PM_FAQs/imported%20graphics.pdf (PDF, about 900kb - note that many of the links are now obsolete)

                • 5. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                  jswist109 Level 1

                  The embedded eps files are only 70KB each, so linking them makes no sighificant difference in the pmd file size.

                  And indeed a few tests show that this is not a factor in building pdf (ps) file speed.

                   

                  As you saw in my other topic on this project, the size of the preview image is a major contributor to the pmd file size and I reduced this considerably by using 75 dpi instead of 300 dpi previews.

                   

                  And while I'm not privy to PageMaker internals, I find it unlikely that preview images take part in the exporting of pdf files.

                   

                  As I said earlier, intuition would dictate that converting eps to ps should be computationally trivial.

                   

                  I'm also going to follow this up with the Sibelius peopple to see if they are doing something funny in their eps files, or if their customers have reported this problem in other contexts.

                  • 6. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                    BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                    What operating system are you using?

                     

                    Bob

                    • 8. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                      BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                      Try rolling back to SP2.

                       

                      Better yet, consider moving to InDesign.

                       

                      Bob

                      • 9. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                        jswist109 Level 1

                        This happened on SP2 as well.

                         

                        And, knowing that PageMaker is a dead end, I did download a free trial of InDesign, and discovered that its user interface is totally different to the point it would take weeks to get everyone up to productive levels.  We have a business to run.  I'll bite that bullet someday but not now.

                         

                        So if this slow eps business is indeed a PageMaker artifact I'll have to live with it.

                         

                        I am also pursuing this issue on the Sibelius forum, hoping that users who have imported Sibelius eps files into other DTP applications might be able to report their experiences.

                        • 10. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                          BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                          Good luck to you. If you do find anything out, please come back and let us know.

                           

                          Bob

                          • 11. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                            robertbj6916

                            Dont "Export to PDF". PRINT to an Acrobat *.ps file. Then Distill it. Much faster.

                            I produce a 240 page color catalog roughly 3.4 GB. Never had a problem.

                            • 12. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                              jswist109 Level 1

                              "Print to an Acrobat *.ps file"

                               

                              How do I do this?   The only printers that show up in the print dialog box are my real printer, and the Acrobat Distiller fake printer.

                               

                              BTW, if I print to the distiller "printer", I get the same slow behavior.

                               

                              Also it was my impression that the "Export PDF" function in PM simply did exactly what you said - created a .ps file, and then sent it to the distiller all in one command.  It is the creation of the ps file that is taking all;l the time. Why would it matter how it was invoked.

                               

                              I have noticed over the years in this forum that other people have suggested splitting the export PDF into its constituent operations, for reasons that seem unrelated to performance, but I am still willing to try this if I knew how.

                               

                              Thanks

                              • 13. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                robertbj6916 Level 1

                                I have Acrobat Pro installed which adds an Acrobat Print driver to the available printers. I add a preset printer in Pagemaker. It becomes "Adobe PDF on My Documents\*.PDF". Under Options, check "Write Postscript to File". The file becomes a *.ps file. After the file is created, I drop it into an in box from a watched folder setup in Distiller. For me, a typical 10MB postscript (*.ps) page might take 10 seconds to convert.

                                • 14. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                  robertbj6916 Level 1

                                  I dont use EPS images, only cmyk tiffs. Ive never liked "Export to PDF".

                                  Under the print options, "Send Image Data" as Normal, (never optimized) Data encoding as Binary. The pagemaker file name you want to convert shows up in the "write postscript to File" window. Hit browse and locate a folder you want to *.ps too. After its saved, dump it in the "in" box associated with Distiller. The out box will contain the finished PDF andthe ps file. The catalog I do is full of 300 DPI CMYK Tiffs. I do my publication in 32 page signatures in PM, but distill each page individually for the commercial printer. ie: Catalog77_page1.ps, Catalog77_page2.ps and so on. This is done for the CREO imposition software at the printer (in my case). Catalog77_page1.ps becomes Catalog77_page1.pdf in the out box. (about 4 to 5 MB per finished page).

                                  • 15. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                    BigJohnD Level 3

                                    jswist109 wrote:

                                     

                                    I have a 64 page publication which contains a placed .eps file on each page.  (The .eps files are the output of a music notation program and average about 60KB).

                                     

                                    I've been wondering about this.

                                     

                                    As a test, why don't you load up Distiller, then convert one of the EPS files into a PDF.  It should be very quick, a second or so,  but if it takes a long time, then you need to go back to the application which is creating the music notation and investigate.

                                     

                                    Do you have Illustrator?

                                    1 person found this helpful
                                    • 16. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                      Jay Chevako Level 3

                                      robertbj6916 wrote:

                                      I do my publication in 32 page signatures in PM, but distill each page individually for the commercial printer. ie: Catalog77_page1.ps, Catalog77_page2.ps and so on.

                                      Wow! I'm glad those days are over. I will separate the cover and interior when creating a pdf except for a self cover book, then, it's just one pdf file. I haven't run across a request for single pages in years, and  I work with some printers with some pretty archaic systems.

                                      Jay

                                      • 17. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                        Level 4

                                        Jay Chevako wrote:

                                         

                                        robertbj6916 wrote:

                                        I do my publication in 32 page signatures in PM, but distill each page individually for the commercial printer.

                                        Wow! I'm glad those days are over.

                                        If I had to do that I would find a new printer, Really fast.

                                        • 18. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                          jswist109 Level 1

                                          Big John, thanks for your time on this weird problem.

                                           

                                          To answer your two easy questions first (1) running a Sibelius .eps file directly through the distiller is instantaneous, and (2) I do not have Illustrator.  We are poor but poverty stricken here :-)

                                           

                                          I have narrowed this problem down considerably with some of the help here. It has something to do with embedding fonts.

                                           

                                          I have split the process into making the .ps file and then distilling it.  No matter what, distilling is always fast so the problem is occuring in the .ps file creation.

                                           

                                          These tests are on a 12 page document with an .eps placed on each page.

                                           

                                          I create the .ps file by PageMaker->File->PrinterStyles->Acrobat.  I then select Options.  If I specify embedding fonts (TTF and PS), the process of creating the .ps file is slower than molasses.  But the resulting .ps file, when distilled produces a correct pdf file.

                                           

                                          If I set embed fonts to "None". The .ps file is built almost instantaneously.  But when I distill it I get two :"missing  fonts, using Courier" messages, these seem to be for the fonts used in the PageMaker part of the publication, the Sibelius fonts are already embedded in the .eps.   The two fonts in question are from the Times New Roman family, but THAT's NOT WHAT THE DISTILLER SAYS.  IT claims that it is missing font "TTE1A55240T00" and the second one is similar gibberish.

                                           

                                          So it's fast as hell but the output is wrong because the fonts used in the .pmd  file are missing in some weird way.

                                           

                                          Trying any of this with publications without placed Sibelius .eps files shows no performance problem no matter how you do it.

                                           

                                          Does any of this tell you anything?

                                          Thanks,

                                          Jim

                                          • 19. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                            BigJohnD Level 3

                                            The embedded font issue needs to be investigated.

                                             

                                            Do you have all the Sibelius/music notation fonts installed on your PC?

                                             

                                            Possible solutions to the  "Helvetica or Times Roman error occurs when you try to convert a PostScript file from PageMaker to PDF (Acrobat Distiller 5.x-7.x)" error are listed in the Adobe KB here: http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/328/328694.html

                                             

                                             

                                            Iechyd da! John
                                            23:17 14/10/2009 BST

                                            • 20. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                              Jay Chevako Level 3

                                              It sounds likea problem when the fonts are being subseted. What are the settings in distiller that you are using? Areyou using the same fonts in Pagemaker and Sibelius. Can you try a different font in Sibelius?

                                              Jay

                                              • 21. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                                jswist109 Level 1

                                                O woe is me.  I was afraid it might get into this totally incomprehensible (for some of us) business of fonts and PDF files which must constitute a third of the entire PageMaker forum!

                                                 

                                                First of all, I misspoke in my previous description, the option to embed the fonts in the eps file has been turned off.  Since it is ON by default in Sibelius, I am trying to recall why we always turn it off, and indeed it goes back several years where (I think, my memory isn't what it used to be) I was either getting bad fonts in my PDFs and/or one of those obscure "cannot send postscript to distiller" errors.

                                                 

                                                So the font story is:

                                                The eps files reference 3 fonts, 2 are Sibelius notation fonts, and the third is Times New Roman (providing the lyrics for the music).   The option to imbed these in the .eps file export is OFF.

                                                 

                                                The PageMaker file uses a couple of fonts of its own, and Times New Roman is one of them.

                                                 

                                                If I build the .ps file with font embedding OFF, and then distill to PDF, it runs like the wind, but the PageMaker fonts come out Courier.  The Sibelius fonts are correct.

                                                 

                                                If I build the ,ps file with font embedding ON, and then distill to PDF, the output is correct, but the PostScript build phase takes as long as two minutes per page.

                                                 

                                                All the fonts, including the private Sibelius fonts, are installed in the Windows font folder.

                                                 

                                                I believe the above finally describes the issue as succinctly as I can.  I will attach a sample .eps file so you can see how simple it is.

                                                 

                                                Thanks

                                                Jim

                                                • 23. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                                  BigJohnD Level 3

                                                  Thanks for the specimen page.

                                                   

                                                  It opened fine in Illustrator (no PM here!) and the PDF from it is excellent. Using Illustrator's "Save As… PDF" was very quick (1 second) and came out 760kb,

                                                  http://bigjohnd.org.uk/PMForum/All%20Nations,%20Clap%20Your%20HandsPEW.pdf

                                                   

                                                  but when printing as a PDF it did take longer, about 12-15 seconds, but was only 29kb

                                                  http://bigjohnd.org.uk/PMForum/All%20Nations,%20Clap%20Your%20HandsPEW%5B2%5D.pdf

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  I'm not sure what to conclude…

                                                   

                                                  Re: the Courier Substituion, see this page in the Adobe KB: Fonts are substituted when you print (PageMaker 7.0.x)

                                                  • 24. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                                    jswist109 Level 1

                                                    Well if you don't know, I doubly don't know.

                                                     

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    I looked at that lon g list of possible reasons for the Courier substitution, and most or all of them don't seem to apply.  I have no PostScript printer, just an inkjet for drafts.  We NEVER print from PageMaker for any of our work. We make PDFs.  We either print the PDFs here for draft work, or send them out to the printer when we are done.   All the fonts involved are TT fonts.  Whe n I make a .ps file I use PrinterStyles->Acrobat, and actually I've only been doing that to investigate this performance problem to isola te what phase of the process is slow.   Normally I just use the PageMaker Export PDF function and it has worked fine with many customers, many publications, over 10 years.

                                                     

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    I'm going to try to fiddle with some of these embedding options to see what arises.

                                                     

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    It is suspicious that posting this problem in the Sibelius forum elicits no response.  This cannot be an uncommon workflow in music publishing - use PageMaker for the book framework and place Sibelius scores when needed.   Any kind of music textbook would have this flow.

                                                     

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    Do you by any chance know the algorithm for locating fonts when some are referenced and/or imbedded in placed .eps files, and others, possible duplicates, are referenced by the PageMaker document.  Understanding that would be the key to unlocking this puzzle.

                                                     

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    Also Jay Chevako asked for the .pdf files.  I will get around to that when I can, I'm not sure what you will infer - the first one will be correct but slow to export and the second will be fast but with the Courier substitution.

                                                     

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    Thanks

                                                    • 25. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                                      jswist109 Level 1

                                                      Yes I can, the names are self explanatory, the one with "slow" in it is slow and correct, the one with "fast" in it has Courier instead of Times.

                                                      • 26. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                                        jswist109 Level 1

                                                        Aha.  One more important piece of info.

                                                         

                                                        In the "slow but correct" workflow .ps build phase, a message comes up listing the 3 fonts in the .eps file (2 Sibelius and Times) and saying "These fonts are either embedded in the eps file, or missing, the publication may not print properly"

                                                         

                                                        In our case, they are indeed missing from the .eps since we specify no font imbedding in Sibliue eps export.

                                                         

                                                        We also respond with "Print Anyway", and everything is gorgeous, just slow.

                                                         

                                                        In the "fast but incorrect" workflow, the message does not appear, but we get Courier for the PageMaker-only fonts.

                                                         

                                                        You know, to my simple mind, I would expect the Courier font substution *everywhere* in the fast workflow since we are specifying no imbedding either in the .eps nor in PageMaker.  So why do the fonts in the .eps come out right?   I would think they would be even harder to locate since their references are buried inside a placed file, but this is clearly just conjecture.  Just seems counter-intuitive,.

                                                         

                                                        Jim

                                                        • 27. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                                          Jay Chevako Level 3

                                                          Looking at the properties of your pdf files, it looks like you have two versions of times new roman on your machine,  TimesNewRomanPSMT and TimesNewRoman  Try deativating the PSMT version, and changing any PSMT text to the regular version wherever it appears in your pagemaker document.

                                                          Jay

                                                          • 28. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                                            jswist109 Level 1

                                                            What in heaven's name is Times New RomanPSMT?  I never specified that anywhere.

                                                            • 29. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                                              BigJohnD Level 3

                                                              I think Jay has identified what it's all about, and the problem is a PM issue.

                                                               

                                                              Before you create your PDF from PM,  run PM's Save for Service Provider and somewhere in it it will identify any font problems.

                                                              • 30. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                                                Jay Chevako Level 3

                                                                jswist109 wrote:

                                                                 

                                                                What in heaven's name is Times New RomanPSMT?  I never specified that anywhere.

                                                                It's a font. It's installed on your system, pagemaker is probably interchanging that and the regular TNR within the document, which is causing the problem.

                                                                 

                                                                Find the font and deactivate it, then check your pagemaker file.

                                                                Jay

                                                                • 31. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                                                  BigJohnD Level 3

                                                                  jswist109 wrote:

                                                                   

                                                                  What in heaven's name is Times New RomanPSMT?  I never specified that anywhere.

                                                                  There is a very old but neat Type1 font called TimesNewRomanPS.  MT usually means Monotype is this context, i.e. the font is from the AGFA Monotype foundry. So this is probably the TrueType version, in this case possibly a substitution for the standard PS font Times.

                                                                  • 32. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                                                    jswist109 Level 1

                                                                    There is no such font on my system.  Neither in the Windows fonts folder nor anywhere else.  I have asked the Sibelius support people what's going on.

                                                                     

                                                                    So I can't deactivate it.  Nor do I understand why it prints at all....

                                                                     

                                                                    But returning to the original problem, what you guys are saying is that the presence of TimesNewRomanPSMT in the eps file and the presence of regular TimesNewRoman in the ,pmd file is causing the .ps build to run slowly because of some conflict or conversion or translation that is probably taking place on every character. Is this a fair description of what we think is happening?

                                                                    • 33. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                                                      Jay Chevako Level 3

                                                                      That's my guess. Assuming that this is the computer you run Sibelius the font is on your system, It's filename maybe something else, and it may be in an odd spot like the pagemaker/distiller font folder or even a Sibelius font folder if such a thing exists

                                                                      Try Disabling the regular TNR and/or using a different font in pagemaker.

                                                                      Jay

                                                                      • 34. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                                                        Gernot Hoffmann Level 3

                                                                        The opus.. fonts are characterized as Unicode, Identity-H and CID fonts.

                                                                        Each character is coded by two bytes.

                                                                        PM cannot use these fonts, generally. If the fonts are embedded in the

                                                                        EPS files then they have not to be used or applied, but the glyphs have

                                                                        to be converted by PM's Export via PostScript into the PDF format.

                                                                        PM has its own Postscript converter, which doesn't know two-byte fonts,

                                                                        nevertheless these EPSs have to be handled.

                                                                        This may cause the trouble.

                                                                         

                                                                        Alternative recommendations for the PM workflow:

                                                                        a) The EPS source files should contain the glyphs as outlines, which

                                                                        results in pure graphics.

                                                                        b) The source files should be generated as PDFs with embedded fonts.

                                                                         

                                                                        Another questionable issue: the PDF contains the color space sRGB.

                                                                        The headline and the footnotes appear by rich black CMYK.

                                                                        Actually there should be either one plate K (Grayscale) or four plates CMYK

                                                                        with empty CMY.

                                                                        Of course, nobody would print such a page by four plates, but there is a

                                                                        risk that the relevant K plate contains less than 100% K.

                                                                         

                                                                        Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

                                                                        • 35. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                                                          jswist109 Level 1

                                                                          I got this answer from Sibelius support...

                                                                           

                                                                          "TimesNewRomanPSMT is the PostScript name of the Type 3 font that Sibelius creates from the Times New Roman TrueType font installed on your system."

                                                                           

                                                                          It is somehow buried in the times.ttf file and does not show up on the system as an explicitly named font.

                                                                           

                                                                          Not that this helps me with a solution.  I have to use the same font in Sibelius for lyrics as in PageMaker for the rest of the book.

                                                                           

                                                                          Another thing I tried was building a PDF file direcly from Sibelius (by printing my image to the distiller "printer").  That works and seems to run much faster, but I am having problems with the size of the preview image on the place PDF function - I specify content area only but the preview (72 dpi - the default) is slightly bigger than it should be.  These things need to be placed very accurately and while I don't care that much what the interior of the preview looks like, its edges have to be pretty exact.

                                                                          • 36. Re: Building PDF file very slow when pmd file contains many eps files
                                                                            jswist109 Level 1

                                                                            Finally got back to working on this problem.  The PDF (.ps more specifically) build time is killing us.

                                                                             

                                                                            TimesNewRomanPSMT was a red herring.  I changed the text in the Sibelius .eps file to use a different font (Minion).    A dump of the resulting .eps indeed shows two Sibelius music fonts and Minion (and nothing else).   It is still slow unless the .ps is built without font embedding, but then the resulting distilled pdf file has Courier instead of the .pmd file fonts.  (I am redescribing the original problem as succinctly as I can).

                                                                             

                                                                            Then I got rid of the text fonts in the .eps entirely (by deleting all the lyrics).  SAME PROBLEM.  Now the only fonts in the eps are Sibelius music fonts(non-text fonts containing notes and other musical symbols).

                                                                             

                                                                            And again, it matters not whether those fonts are embedded within the .eps or not.  Same problem.

                                                                            So it is something in the processing of those music fonts that is painfully slow.  (Yes they are installed in the regular fonts folder).

                                                                             

                                                                            Not any closer to a solution, but at least we've eliminated some possibilities.