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1. Re: IDCS3 "Layer Options" does not work
P Spier Oct 9, 2009 3:32 PM (in response to Michael Brown12)There should be an option in the object layers options dialog for whether or not to keep layer overrides when updating the link.
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2. Re: IDCS3 "Layer Options" does not work
G. Singelmann Oct 10, 2009 9:08 AM (in response to P Spier)Let me guess: you are adding layers in AI or removing some?
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3. Re: IDCS3 "Layer Options" does not work
Michael Brown12 Oct 11, 2009 7:45 AM (in response to Michael Brown12)I do have the layer override checked in my ID document. That's the problem. I get everything set up just right, and then when I re-save the AI file all the ID pages revert to whatever was on/off in the AI file. It is as if I did not have the layer override selected in the ID file. In other words, all the pages in the ID file look the same: all exactly like the latest saved version of the AI file. This happens without adding nor deleting any layers in the AI file. It is very screwy. As I stated before, I make sure I save the AI file with the same visibility in the layers palette and that works for a while. At some point, however, the ID document changes and I have to go to each page and reset everything. I think the fundamental problem is that Adobe has no competition so it is putting out junk. In this specific case, however, I'm hoping that someone has a work around. Otherwise I have to save numerous identical AI files with different layer visibility--and try to keep them all straight! This would totally negate having this function in the ID document. So, the layer visibility faliure is still a mystery.
As an aside, This "suite" of applications do not work together any better than any random group of apps. They don't even have the same functions in the same place!
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4. Re: IDCS3 "Layer Options" does not work
BobLevine Oct 11, 2009 7:53 AM (in response to Michael Brown12)The only time I've seen this happen is when adding, removing, or renaming a layer. Is CS3 fully patched to 5.0.4?
Bob
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5. Re: IDCS3 "Layer Options" does not work
Michael Brown12 Oct 11, 2009 8:01 AM (in response to BobLevine)Thanks, Bob, I'm pretty sure I have not added nor deleted layers, but I'll run a test and see just to make sure. I'm not sure why it would matter, however, because I give all my layers unique names. I assume that is what the ID-AI connection operates on. At least that is how it should work. Also, I don't know what you mean by "fully patched to 5.0.4" Does that mean I should make sure I have both apps up to date and that 504 is the latest version? If so, that's good advice and I'll certainly check that. I should have done that first, anyway. Thanks for the help!
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6. Re: IDCS3 "Layer Options" does not work
BobLevine Oct 11, 2009 8:50 AM (in response to Michael Brown12)CS3's last patch brought it up to 5.0.4. It will show on the splash screen or you can ctrlclick help>about InDesign (win) or cmdclick InDesign >About InDesign (Mac) to be sure.
I think there were a couple of CS3 patches for AI also.
As far as not mattering...it most certainly does. Any change to the layer structure at all will cause ID to default back to the way the file was saved.
Bob
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7. Re: IDCS3 "Layer Options" does not work
Michael Brown12 Oct 11, 2009 5:35 PM (in response to BobLevine)With all due respect, Bob, it certainly should NOT matter. If I tell ID to only show layers named 1, 14, 9 and 2 it should only show the layers in the AI file that are so named until I decide otherwise. It should not matter if I add any layers. If I delete any of the layers 1, 14, 9 or 2, then it will not show those layers, but the other layer options should not be changed. If I delete layers that are not visible it should not matter. In any event, it is absurd that every page in the entire file should revert to an arbitrary state--that being the visibility in the AI file. This seems obvious to me; is this not how you think it should work, too? I can't imagine a situation where I would want an ID file to decide to change my layer visibility for me. Thank you for your help, I'll check all those things out and make sure I'm up to date. Maybe it's time to jump to CS4.
MGuilfoile
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8. Re: IDCS3 "Layer Options" does not work
BobLevine Oct 11, 2009 6:18 PM (in response to Michael Brown12)You missed my point entirely. Renaming layers, adding layer, and deleting layers matters. It's the way the feature works.
Whether you think it should work that way or not is immaterial. Nobody here can change that. Only the engineers at Adobe can change it and I'm sure it's not a trivial matter.
You can let Adobe know by having your voice heard here:
https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform
And yes, I'd like to see it changed, too, and even wrote about this here:
http://indesignsecrets.com/hey-buddy-can-you-spare-a-layer.php
Bob
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9. Re: IDCS3 "Layer Options" does not work
Michael Brown12 Oct 12, 2009 4:22 AM (in response to BobLevine)Sorry, I did misunderstand you. I guess I'm sort of old school when it comes to the distinction between something that is broken on purpose and something that is broken by mistake. With software it is often the former. (By "on purpose" I mean that they are aware of the defect when the product ships, but are not willing to correct it.) I'll take your advice and send a message to Adobe. I've done this in the past to this and other companies and it does work, although sometimes it takes a long time. I'm not sure why this industry is so different from others where recalls are part of the implied social contract product manufacturers have with their customers. Thanks again for clearing things up for me; you've been very helpful.
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10. Re: IDCS3 "Layer Options" does not work
G. Singelmann Oct 12, 2009 4:36 AM (in response to Michael Brown12)> I'm not sure why this industry is so different from others
When you arbitrarily pick two users and ask them a) which features should be implemented in the next version and b) how the existing features should be implemented in detail the chances are very good that you won't get an agreement.
iow: it is practically a software engineering law that a software like InDesign has at least one feature per user that displeases him.
A car won't be recalled because you don't like the colours of the dashboard due to your particular colourblindness.
And: you could script a solution to this specific problem. That's the magic of InDesign: if you don't like the default behaviour you can very often fix it youself.
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11. Re: IDCS3 "Layer Options" does not work
BobLevine Oct 12, 2009 5:24 AM (in response to Michael Brown12)They do look at those requests. But I'll repeat what I already said...this is not a trivial matter.
By changing a layer name, deleting or adding layers you are changing the structure of the document. InDesign doesn't understand what you've done or what your intent is so it does the only thing it can...resets the graphic to the way you saved it.
IOW, don't count on anything changing any time soon.
I also think you should change the way you look at this. When this capability was introduced it was greeted positively, so instead of thinking it's broken, think more in the lines of limited and plan for it by creating your files within the bounds of those limitations.
Bob
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12. Re: IDCS3 "Layer Options" does not work
TDToomey Oct 12, 2009 9:51 AM (in response to Michael Brown12)A simple solution to the problem is to rename the modified AI file and use the Relink button in the Links panel. This will will interrupt your workflow for the duration of...oh...say, half a heartbeat.
I think when Bob says that "correcting" the issue in InD is "not trivial," he means its a very complex problem in rewriting the code. Fixing one thing can break a whole bunch of other things. Perhaps that's why the engineers provided the Relink feature in the first place.
BTW, renaming a modified file is one of those Best Practices things, whereby, if you've saved and closed the file, then change your mind, you have the old file intact to revert to. But then, I state the obvious.
T
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13. Re: IDCS3 "Layer Options" does not work
Michael Brown12 Oct 12, 2009 10:49 AM (in response to TDToomey)Just for the record, this problem persisted any time I resaved the AI file with different visibility. Eventually, I'm pretty sure it happend when I saved the AI file at all, but I'm not sure about that. Regardless, certainly saving a file is not a bad thing.
If you read my original post, I was not "changing a layer name, deleting or adding layers" as Bob states. I realize this is an easy assumption to make. In my case, however, the ID document reverted to the AI visibility wthout my doing anything at all to the layer palletes including deleteing adding, renaming or changing their order. This is kind of my point. The problem occured when the visibility settings in the AI document were simply saved differently: some on, some off.
It is my contention that having the ability to set layer visibility in the ID document, one could safely assume that changing the visibility in the AI document would have no effect. Otherwise, what is the point of having that function in the ID file if it does not "stick?" Again, let me reiterate: I was not adding, deleting, changing the order nor renaming any layers in the AI document when this problem occured. I was just opening and closing different "eyeballs" in the Layers palette. Sorry for any confusion on my part; I should have made that more clear from the start.
I don't get the car color analogy. I'm talking about consitancy in logic, not random attributes and subjective opinions like "favorite color" or anecdotal, statistically rare problems like color blindness. That's way, way off.
TD's idea of renaming and relinking the file would not work. That would actually make things worse to have a zoo of essentially identical files linked to variious pages. That may work in certain situations, but not mine where the pages are too similar. Of course, I could be misunderstanding what you are suggesting. It is, however, a good idea to save copies just in case you change your mind, however, and I certainly do that.
Thanks to everyone for your help.
MGuilfoile
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14. Re: IDCS3 "Layer Options" does not work
BobLevine Oct 12, 2009 11:27 AM (in response to Michael Brown12)Are you sure you have the setting to preserve layer overrides set properly?
Bob
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15. Re: IDCS3 "Layer Options" does not work
Michael Brown12 Oct 12, 2009 12:15 PM (in response to BobLevine)Yes, every page is set to "keep layer visibility overrides" and not "use PDF visibility" (which is strange because who places PDFs? It's an AI file). Unless there is a global preference that attends to the same thing--which happens in some apps, but is never a good idea--then I think I have it set. I'll keep playing with a copy at some point and experiment. I have that job finished, so it's a little on the back burner right now. I just made sure I never resaved my AI file while I was working on it (or just saved a copy as a different name.)
Thanks,
MGuilfoile
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16. Re: IDCS3 "Layer Options" does not work
BobLevine Oct 12, 2009 12:20 PM (in response to Michael Brown12)You ARE placing a PDF. Illustrator saves two files by default, an AI and a PDF. Without the PDF you can't place an AI file.
Are you using Illustrator CS3?
I've seen issues with using earlier versions of Illustrator.
Bob
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17. Re: IDCS3 "Layer Options" does not work
BobLevine Oct 12, 2009 12:29 PM (in response to Michael Brown12)FWIW, I can't get this to break by simply turning layers on or off in the AI file. Moving them up or down in the stack will, however break it.
Bob
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18. Re: IDCS3 "Layer Options" does not work
Michael Brown12 Oct 12, 2009 1:13 PM (in response to BobLevine)Yes, I'm in CS3 and that must be what I did. I'm sure I had to move the layers in AI at some point to make sure some objects were not covered by others. Isn't this a pretty basic use of layers? I don't think I've ever had a file where I did not have to move the layers around. Regardless, this should not come as a surprise to Adobe (especially since AI allows you to do it.) Thanks for the tip. I'll just have to make sure that I have my layer order set (if that's what it is) before I go turning layers on and off in ID. Thank you for helping me figure it out--and I hope this gets fixed in later versions.
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19. Re: IDCS3 "Layer Options" does not work
BobLevine Oct 12, 2009 2:21 PM (in response to Michael Brown12)Again, don't count on it. You are changing the structure of the file when you do this.
Planning ahead is the only way to make sure you don't run into this limitation.
Once the layer order is set it can't be changed. You'll be better off moving objects from one layer to the other if you've use the file in many places.
Bob



