22 Replies Latest reply on Oct 26, 2009 10:43 AM by SiriNeosBoss

    1080p versus 1080i

    SiriNeosBoss

      In my PE7 I created a project using the CanonProjectPresets 1080 25F, in order to edit some recordings made with my HV30 PAL camcorder.

      The clips were recorded with the HDV25F setting selected.

       

      I tried to export to a 1080p 25 file, but there is not a 1080p standart export setting. So I selected the HD 720p 25 export setting, I clicked in advanced button, I changed the frame size to 1080x1440 with pixasprat=1,333, CBR=30, saved the setting as HD1080p 25.

      I also exported another file using MPEG2 1440x1080i 25 with CBR=30.

       

      I went to my HD FullHD Samsung TV, and watched the files many times in order to select the best one. My player is a sony PlayStation3.

       

      There is no difference, for my eyes, between both files, the 1080p and the 1080i. Both are nice.

       

      My questions:

      Am I wrong?

      Why do many people recommend me using the Canon HDV25F recording?

      Should both files be identical (more or less)?

      Is there any advantaje in using the Canon 25F project preset?

       

      Help me to decide between the recording mode (HDV or HDV25F), my project preset, ...

       

      Thanks in advanced.

      SiriNeos

        • 1. Re: 1080p versus 1080i
          Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

          It's likely your disc player is compensating for the difference between the interlaced and progressive scan video.

           

          But who are these people who are recommending 25F recording?

           

          Premiere Elements often has problems with non-standard video, including non-standard frame rates. Regular HDV is probably your best bet with it.

          • 2. Re: 1080p versus 1080i
            A.T. Romano Level 7

            SiriNeosBoss

             

             

            You ask “Why do many people recommend me using the Canon HDV25F recording?”

             

            I will confine my remarks to a PAL system.

             

            First let us explore what HDV25F is. Basically it is one of Canon HV30’s frame progressive formats. Your Canon HV30 has an interlace type sensor that captures 60 fields per second. In the camcorder it converts and delivers that capture as 50i (50 fields per second, also known as 25 interlaced frames per second), 24p (24 progressive frames per second), 25p (progressive frames per second), or 30p (30 progressive frames per second). In contrast, you will find some manufacturers whose camcorders capture with a progressive sensor and deliver in a frame progressive format, 24p, 25p, and 30p. Whether Canon’s 24F, 25F, and 30F = the 24p, 25p, and 30p of other manufactures has been picked over in online discussions.

             

            A lot of reasons can be found online for shooting that HDV25F format in your Canon HV30 PAL version. I have seen 25p described as “a compromise between overly-crisp 50i and the blurred 24p”. Also online, you can find comments such as “Starting with 25p, as compared to 25i, there is twice as much information going into the compression, so you can maintain a crisper image.”

             

            I have studied the question of what Premiere Elements 7 project preset should you use for your video recorded with the HDV25F setting. Bottom line is that since these presets are used for editing templates and not settings for the actual export choice and encoding, I believe that you can use either, but would base your decision on what works for you to get the best edit as reflected in the end product.

            Canon Folder/Canon 25F HDV (downloaded into Premiere Elements Project Presets/New Project Dialog)

            http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=3408

            or

            Premiere Elements 7 Project Preset/New Project Dialog

            PAL HDV HDV1080i25.

            The differences to be noted are the former has a frame progressive format with no fields whereas the latter has a frame interlaced format with Upper Field First. You may run into flicker and artifacts in the latter playback when in the edit mode (not sure). Those Canon Project Presets look like they were originally directed to Premiere Pro 2 and editing Canon's 24F HDV, 25F HDV, and 30F HDV.

             

            As you found out, you can import 1080p25 into Premiere Elements 7, but there is no export for 1080p25. I found your workaround export, 720p25 changing Advance settings, very interesting. I believe that I suggested that recently in one of these threads as a possible argument against the party line that there is no 1080p export in Premiere Elements 7. I will see if I can find that post. If my recollection is correct on my previously posted comment on that, you will be the first user I have found to confirm my speculation on that.

             

            ATR

            1 person found this helpful
            • 3. Re: 1080p versus 1080i
              SiriNeosBoss Level 1

              Does anyone know what makes PE7 when the timeline of an interlaced preset project (for example HDV PAL 1080i) is exported to a progressive format (for example QuickTime)? Does it discard one field, or does it analize each frame and decide?

               

              If PE7 discards one field, then the project preset selection when the source clips are progressive (for example Canon HDV25F), depends on the export formats selected. If you pretend to export to a progressive format (HD 720p, QuickTime,...), then choose a progressive project preset (for example Canon PAL 25F).

               

              I will try to verify my thinking mixing in one video these four clips(*):

              1. HD 1080i(**) clip exported from a Canon 25F PAL preset project
              2. HD 1080p clip exported from a Canon 25F PAL preset project
              3. HD 1080i clip exported from a 1080 50i PAL preset project
              4. HD 1080p clip exported from a 1080 50i PAL preset project

               

              (*)The source for the four clips will be the same source clip: HDV25F clips recorded with my HV30 cam.

                 The four exported clips will have a CBR=30Mbps.

              (**) The HD 1080p export setting will be based on the HD 720p standard export setting, changing the frame size.

              I will upload this video to vimeo and I will show it to you.

               

              What do you think about it?

               

              Yesterday I discovered that, when I play the exported files 1 and 2 using my Sony PS3 connected to ly Samsung fullHD TV , then the Quality of 1 and 2 is the same.  

              • 4. Re: 1080p versus 1080i
                A.T. Romano Level 7

                SiriNeosBoss

                 

                 

                Premiere Elements and Deinterlacing

                The following is from the Premiere Elements PDF Help section on Field Options, and I think should apply to your question regarding an interlaced Timeline (Fields set for Lower Field First or Upper Field First) and the exported Timeline as frame progressive (No Fields).

                 

                "Always Deinterlace

                Converts interlaced fields into whole progressive‑scan frames. Adobe Premiere Elements deinterlaces by discarding one field and interpolating a new field based on the lines of the remaining field. It keeps the field specified in the Field Settings option in the Project Settings. If you specified No Fields, Adobe Premiere Elements keeps the upper field unless you selected Reverse Field Dominance, in which case it keeps the lower field. This option is useful when freezing a frame in the clip."

                 

                Since the project preset (new project dialog) is linked to Project Settings (Edit Menu/Project Settings) and the program is using Project Settings as described above, then:

                a. if you use the project preset (new project dialog) = Canon 25F HDV, the "field specified" would = "No Fields (Progressive Scan)"

                b. if you use the project preset (new project dialog) = PAL HDV HDV 1080i25, the "field specified" would = "Upper Field First".

                So, it looks like in both cases, it would save the Upper and discard the Lower according to the scheme quoted above.

                 

                Please let me know if you also think that the above Adobe description applies to question.

                 

                 

                ATR

                • 5. Re: 1080p versus 1080i
                  SiriNeosBoss Level 1

                  Romano,

                   

                  My conclusions after reading your post are:

                   

                  • When there is "No fields" in the project settings, there is no field discarding when you are exporting to a progressive format (BETTER QUELITY)
                  • When there is UpperFieldFirst or BottomFieldFirst then there is a field discarding during the exportation to a progressive format(WORSE QUALITY).

                   

                  It is always related with the project settings, and never is related with the properties of the original vide.

                   

                  So, if your source video is progressive and your export-format is progessive then create a project using the Canon 25F project settings, but if your export-format is interlaced, then choose the PAL HDV HDV 1080i25 standard project settings.

                   

                  Am I wrong?   

                  • 6. Re: 1080p versus 1080i
                    Jackson Joseph

                    1. 1080p defined
                    1080p resolution--which equates to 1,920x1,080 pixels--is the latest HD Holy Grail. That's because 1080p monitors are theoretically capable of displaying every pixel of the highest-resolution HD broadcasts. On paper, they should offer more than twice the resolution of today's 1,280x720, or 720p, HDTVs, such as Samsung's HL-P5085W. Some companies, such as LG, refer to these super-high-res of sets as ultra-HD, while others prefer to substitute true or full for ultra.

                    2. Why 1080p is theoretically better than 1080i
                    1080i, the former king of the HDTV hill, actually boasts an identical 1,920x1,080 resolution but conveys the images in an interlaced format (the i in 1080i). In a tube-based television, otherwise known as a CRT, 1080i sources get "painted" on the screen sequentially: the odd-numbered lines of resolution appear on your screen first, followed by the even-numbered lines--all within 1/30 of a second. Progressive-scan formats such as 480p, 720p, and 1080p convey all of the lines of resolution sequentially in a single pass, which makes for a smoother, cleaner image, especially with sports and other motion-intensive content. As opposed to tubes, microdisplays (DLP, LCoS, and LCD rear-projection) and other fixed-pixel TVs, including plasma and LCD flat-panel, are inherently progressive in nature, so when the incoming source is interlaced, as 1080i is, they convert it to progressive scan for display.

                    3. What content is available in 1080p?
                    Really, nothing at this point. Today's high-def broadcasts are done in either 1080i or 720p, and there's little or no chance they'll jump to 1080p any time soon because of bandwidth issues. Meanwhile, some newly announced DVD players from Denon and NeuNeo (who?) are claiming to upconvert standard DVD movies to 1080p resolution, but that's a far cry from native high-def content. More promising is the post-DVD future. There's been a lot of chatter over whether the new breed of high-def movie players, Blu-ray or HD-DVD, as well as the upcoming Sony PlayStation 3, will output in 1080p. Allegedly, they will, but those players and recorders will be very expensive at first (more than $1,000), and they probably won't hit more modest price levels until 2007 or even 2008. The PS3, on the other hand, is designed to be more of a mainstream product; we hope that means a price tag in the neighborhood of $500. It's unclear, however, exactly what it will output in 1080p--games, Blu-ray movies, or both--or neither.

                    • 7. Re: 1080p versus 1080i
                      A.T. Romano Level 7

                      SiriNeosBoss

                       

                      I have been thinking for a long time about your last post, essentially agreeing but hung up on what exactly the program is doing in certain aspects.

                       

                      Adobe tells us in the Help PDF what it is doing with interlace video to deinterlace it. OK. And, there, as you say, if you start with interlace video you are depending on the program deinterlace for field discarding based on the field setting in the Edit Menu/Project Settings..."it keeps the field specified in the Field Settings opinion in the Project Settings".

                       

                      Keep in mind that thoughtout I have been assuming that the Adobe rules for Field Options/Always Deinterlace are the same as applied to Share/Personal Computer/export field option directives.

                       

                      Classically, no fields are in progressive scan video, just progressive frames. Further these Help PDF files tell us on the subject of Field Options/Always Deinterlace, "If you specified No Fields, Adobe Premiere Elements keeps the upper field....". That would appear to be intended for interlaced video on the Timeline. But, how does this all apply to your case where you are starting with imported 1080p25 video? How is Premiere Elements programmed to read the Field Setting in the Project Settings with the Field specified as No Fields and make meaningful "If you specified No Fields.....keeps the upper field..."? I am wondering if the deinterlace process is just ignored and the progressive scan frames are maintained throughout the workflow OR whether we are being told that the progressive scan video went to Timeline as interlaced video and will be converted back to progressive scan video with the program deinterlacing? Either case, your source was progressive scan video (no two fields with inherent time lapse). So, even if there were an interlaced intermediate, the fields should be the same?

                       

                      Whether or not you would see a difference in end product comparing the two approaches being discussed is open for question. I suspect not all the time, but depending on the nature of the footage recorded. After all is said and done, I would go with the Canon 25p HDV project preset.

                       

                      As an aside, did you know that in DV Capture, Premiere Elements captures interlaced video at 30 frames per second (NTSC), even if the footage being captured is progressive scan (like 24p)?

                       

                      ATR

                      • 8. Re: 1080p versus 1080i
                        SiriNeosBoss Level 1

                        My testing results:

                         

                         

                        Video 1Video 2Results
                        Project SettingsExport formatProject SettingsExport formatBest oneDeinterlaced
                        Canon 25F HDVMPEG2 1080i 25HDV 1080i 25HD 1080p 25Video 1 (very little)No one
                        Canon 25F HDVQuickTime 1080pCanon 25F HDVHD 1080p 25= (more or less)No one
                        HDV 1080i 25MPEG2 1080i 25HDV 1080i 25HD 1080p 25= (more or less)No one
                        HDV 1080i 25QuickTime 1080pHDV 1080i 25HD 1080p 25Video 2Video 1
                        HDV 1080i 25HD 1080p 25Canon 25F HDVHD 1080p 25= (more or less)No one
                        HDV 1080i 25QuickTime 1080pCanon 25F HDVQuickTime 1080pVideo 2Video 1

                        My conclusions:

                         

                        • HD 1080p is not considered as a progressive format by the PE7 exporting program. When the source video is interlaced, then there are the interlaced lines in the HD1080p exported videos coming from the 'Canon 25F HDV project' and from the HDV 1080i 25.  
                        • If you have HDV25F as source video, and your destination format is a progressive QuickTime, then you should use the "Canon 25F HDV" project preset.

                         

                        I have a 30MB zip file with 12 photos inside. Each photo has a 'Video1 against Video2', and I used them in order to obtain my results.Where can I upload it for you?

                         

                        I hope this is usefull for you.

                        • 9. Re: 1080p versus 1080i
                          A.T. Romano Level 7

                          SiriNeosBoss

                           

                          I have been trying to determine how to receive your file. Please try the Private Message system at this web site. It is found under the Your Stuff category in the Forums headers. I hope that works since that is about the only avenue that I have at this time.

                           

                          Thank you for all your follow up studies.

                           

                          ATR

                          • 10. Re: Testing files [1 of 12]
                            SiriNeosBoss Level 1


                            Video1

                            Source File: HDV25F

                            Project preset: Canon 25F HDV

                            Export format: MPEG2 1080i 25

                             

                            Video2

                            Source File: HDV25F

                            Project preset: HDV 1080i 25

                            Export format: HD 1080p 25

                            • 11. Re: Testing files [2 of 12]
                              SiriNeosBoss Level 1

                              Video1

                              Source File: HDV25F

                              Project preset: Canon 25F HDV

                              Export format: QuickTime 1080p 25

                               

                              Video2

                              Source File: HDV25F

                              Project preset: Canon 25F HDV

                              Export format: HD 1080p 25

                              • 12. Testing results [3 of 12]
                                SiriNeosBoss Level 1

                                Testing [3 of 12].bmp

                                • 13. Re: Testing results [3 of 12]
                                  A.T. Romano Level 7

                                  SiriNeosBoss

                                   

                                  Thank you for the sendings. I will study them and your report and comment later.

                                   

                                  ATR

                                  • 14. Re: Testing files[4 of 12]
                                    SiriNeosBoss Level 1

                                    Video1

                                    Source File: HDV25F

                                    Project preset: HDV 1080i 25

                                    Export format: QuickTime 1080p 25

                                     

                                    Video2

                                    Source File: HDV25F

                                    Project preset: HDV 1080i 25

                                    Export format: HD 1080p 25

                                    • 15. Re: Testing files [5 of 12]
                                      SiriNeosBoss Level 1

                                      Video1

                                      Source File: HDV25F

                                      Project preset: HDV 1080i 25

                                      Export format: HD 1080p 25

                                       

                                      Video2

                                      Source File: HDV25F

                                      Project preset: Canon 25F HDV

                                      Export format: HD 1080p 25

                                      • 16. Re: Testing files [6 of 12]
                                        SiriNeosBoss Level 1

                                        Video1

                                        Source File: HDV25F

                                        Project preset: HDV 1080i 25

                                        Export format: QuickTime 1080p 25

                                         

                                        Video2

                                        Source File: HDV25F

                                        Project preset: Canon 25F HDV

                                        Export format: QuickTime 1080p 25

                                        • 17. Re: Testing files [7 of 12]
                                          SiriNeosBoss Level 1

                                          Video1

                                          Source File: HDV

                                          Project preset: Canon 25F HDV

                                          Export format: MPEG2 1080i 25

                                           

                                          Video2

                                          Source File: HDV

                                          Project preset: HDV 1080i 25

                                          Export format: HD 1080p 25

                                          • 18. Re: Testing files [8 of 12]
                                            SiriNeosBoss Level 1

                                            Video1

                                            Source File: HDV

                                            Project preset: Canon 25F HDV

                                            Export format: QuickTime 1080p 25

                                             

                                            Video2

                                            Source File: HDV

                                            Project preset: Canon 25F HDV

                                            Export format: HD 1080p 25

                                            • 19. Re: Testing files [9 of 12]
                                              SiriNeosBoss Level 1

                                              Video1

                                              Source File: HDV

                                              Project preset: HDV 1080i 25

                                              Export format: MPEG2 1080i 25

                                               

                                              Video2

                                              Source File: HDV

                                              Project preset: HDV 1080i 25

                                              Export format: HD 1080p 25

                                              • 20. Re: Testing files [10 of 12]
                                                SiriNeosBoss Level 1

                                                Video1

                                                Source File: HDV

                                                Project preset: HDV 1080i 25

                                                Export format: QuickTime 1080p 25

                                                 

                                                Video2

                                                Source File: HDV25F

                                                Project preset: HDV 1080i 25

                                                Export format: HD 1080p 25

                                                • 21. Re: Testing files [11 of 12]
                                                  SiriNeosBoss Level 1

                                                  Video1

                                                  Source File: HDV

                                                  Project preset: HDV 1080i 25

                                                  Export format: HD 1080p 25

                                                   

                                                  Video2

                                                  Source File: HDV

                                                  Project preset: Canon 25F HDV

                                                  Export format: HD 1080p 25

                                                  • 22. Re: Testing files [12 of 12]
                                                    SiriNeosBoss Level 1

                                                    Video1

                                                    Source File: HDV

                                                    Project preset: HDV 1080i 25

                                                    Export format: QuickTime 1080p 25

                                                     

                                                    Video2

                                                    Source File: HDV

                                                    Project preset: Canon 25F HDV

                                                    Export format: QuickTime 1080p 25