18 Replies Latest reply on Oct 27, 2009 6:44 AM by panfried

    why illustrator for vectors?

    spotted-dog

      as a web designer i am ashamed to say that i never fire up illustrator whenever i need graphics.  i always use fireworks, whther it's for jpeg or gif files, for websites.

       

      however, i have read recently that all logo work should be done in illustrator because vector files can scale without loss of detail.  precisely what i need!  because i've noticed that the jpeg or gif logos in fireworks do not scale without some fuzziness (of course i work with them as png files but then i export them).

       

      my question is this:  if i do decide to go with illustrator for my logos, won't i have to convert them to either jpeg or gif anyway (sometimes png) before i upload to the server?  so if the final product is the same in fireworks and illustrator (jpeg, gif) why would i be advised to draw in illustrator?  is there something special about the illustrator native file format that preserves detail even after it's converted/exported to jpeg or gif?

       

      confused?  someone please set me straight.

        • 1. Re: why illustrator for vectors?
          Jacob Bugge MVP & Adobe Community Professional

          spotted-dog,

           

          Vector artwork is scaleable, which means that you may create raster images at any size (and keep it vactor for print at any size which may also be needed for logos).

           

          Especially when you change the size of a PNG or GIF, it is difficult, unless you halve the size (or halve again) brcause you either get too large pixles or jagged edges. The size of vector artwork may be changed freely, and then saved as raster.

          • 2. Re: why illustrator for vectors?
            Mylenium Most Valuable Participant
            is there something special about the illustrator native file format that preserves detail even after it's converted/exported to jpeg or gif

             

            Vectors are rasterized,  meaning that their fills and effects are evaluated, after the defining contours and other element containers have been transformed. That's why they are resolution independent. Pixel images are always interpolated, so neighboring pixels are combined anbd the new pixel(s) represent an average of the original pixels, henze the loss of sharpness.

             

            Mylenium

            • 3. Re: why illustrator for vectors?
              Jacob Bugge MVP & Adobe Community Professional

              spotted-dog,

               

              You may also say: create vector artwork once, and use it for multiple purposes and sizes; or create raster artwork, and do it all over again, and again.

              • 4. Re: why illustrator for vectors?
                Wade_Zimmerman Level 6

                I found that you will get excellent results with making the vector in Illustrator for what you want and yes you have to Save for Device and Web.

                 

                Now I know you know your business and gif and jpeg are still used a lot but png would no be my choice for exporting the file and not jpeg or gif/
                for this type of art. It is better than gif in quality and it has transparency and modern browsers support the format. The Adobe logo on this page is png.

                 

                Also if you wish to also work with Photoshop and you use Dreamweaver, I assume you do, then you can do the save for the Device and Web in Photoshop bring the Illustrator logo into that document as a smart object and drop that photoshop file into Dream weaver as Smart Object.

                 

                What does this seemingly complex work flow do for you.

                One Dreamweaver will do the conversion for you,

                 

                two the art will be live in that if you just choose to edit the smart object it will open in Photoshop click on the smart Illustrator object in the layers panel and it will open in Illustrator  edit save close it save the Photoshop file and it will automatically update in Dreamweaver and all instances of it. So if you use the logo on ten pages of different sizes they will all be updated auomatically

                 

                three you can use a combination of vector and graphic with this smart object approach and as above be able to update the vector only the raster only or both in one operation and you do not have to replace the art it will update for you and be converted by Dreamweaver. And you will have a much better work flow. True it would be a wonderful thing if Adobe also made this work flow work from Illustrator as well but…

                • 5. Re: why illustrator for vectors?
                  JETalmage Level 6
                  as a web designer i am ashamed to say that i never fire up illustrator whenever i need graphics.  i always use fireworks, whther it's for jpeg or gif files, for websites.


                  First, what I hope will be taken as nothing more than a gentle rebuke--not directed personally to Spotted Dog, but to everyone who needs it (you know who you are)--regarding a little pet peeve:

                   

                  Why do so many here--especially "web designers"--so proudly refuse to capitalize sentences or the first-person pronoun "I"? The same self-proclaimed "web-with-it-geeks" would no doubt have a hissy fit if someone typed in all caps. Why do they think this adolescent non-grammar is any less annoying?

                   

                  Graphics is about communication. Would you hire someone who can't even use proper grammar to promote your business or product? Would you trust your identity graphics to someone who still thinks it "chik" to be web-sloppy? (Hint: It's not. Webspeak stopped being "cute and clever" in the early 90s. Lowercase i stopped being clever after e. e. cummings.)

                   

                  Is it supposed to show how "web savy" you are? It doesn't. Quite the contrary, for many years in this forum, starting paragraphs with a lower-case "i" frequently causes the "i" to disappear and the whole paragraph to display in italics. Yet the supposedly "web savy" authors seemed to never notice this about their own posts.

                   

                  Honestly...I won't speak for others, but reading posts typed like this always makes me hesitate to even reply. It makes me think, "Now here's a person who is asking strangers to freely volunteer their downtime to help with a problem; yet this person thinks his time to 'too valuable' to 'waste' a few microseconds on the Shift key for proper grammar--let alone a few minutes for clarity, accuracy, and thoroughness."

                   

                  Drives me nuts.

                   

                  Okay. End of rant.

                   

                  i have read recently that all logo work should be done in illustrator because vector files can scale without loss of detail.

                  If that's accurately what they said, whomever wrote what you recent read is an idiot. And you can tell him I said so.

                   

                  By far, most real corporate logos are created as vector-based artwork, not just raster images. Scaleability is one obvious issue. Capability for CMYK and Spot Color separation is another. But there's a whole genre of programs which can do that. Adobe Illustrator is just one, and in many ways not necessarily the best.

                   

                  Merely "being vector" is not the whole story. Anything actually charged good money for as a "logo" (the term has been so loosely abused these days, it has become almost meaningless) should be considered a "master" file (often several files) to be re-purposed in many ways, and should be as pristinely built as possible. There's a whole world of sloppy practices and inefficient, convoluted, problematic constructs that can be built in vector drawing programs. It's merely being "all vector" doesn't necessary mean it is "logo quality."

                   

                  ...i've noticed that the jpeg or gif logos in fireworks do not scale without some fuzziness (of course i work with them as png files but then i export them).


                  This comment suggests that you may be among those under the widespread misconception that PNG is a vector-based format, just because Fireworks has some vector drawing tools and saves its files as PNG. It is not. PNG is a raster image format that merely allows for a block of code to be included in the data file and "commented out". That extra included content can be just about anything. Programs that don't know to look for that extra content just ignore it. Macromedia stupidly decided to appropriate the open PNG format as its "native" format for Fireworks, using that mechanism to contain the Fireworks-specific code in that "cordoned off" area, rather than properly defining a native Fireworks format. That decision has led to untold amounts of confusion and begs for disaster.

                   

                  if i do decide to go with illustrator for my logos, won't i have to convert them to either jpeg or gif anyway (sometimes png) before i upload to the server?

                   

                  You'll of course have to convert them to JPEG or GIF or PNG when you have a legitimate need for JPEG or GIF or PNG. But what if you have a need for color-separated print? Have you ever known a customer who only does web marketing and does zero print marketing? Who doesn't need a sign on his office building? Who doesn't buy embroidered golf shirts for his employees or engraved pens for his customers? Who doesn't print letterhead stationery? Who doesn't buy ad space in everything ranging from the Yellow Pages to national trade magazines? Who doesn't need his identity on his trade show displays?

                   

                  Design for PRINT first; then dumb-down for low-res static web stuff.

                  ...so if the final product is the same in fireworks...

                   

                  It's not. Firworks doesn't know didly about CMYK or spot color or color separation. It's just one more web-centric graphics tool in a whole world of web-centric graphics tools.

                   

                  is there something special about the illustrator native file format that preserves detail even after it's converted/exported to jpeg or gif?

                   

                  No. But there's a whole world of graphics reproduction requirements beyond merely displaying a lame JPEG or GIF on a web page. Any client buying an identity graphic expects it to properly serve for all of his marketing and identity needs, not just for a screen-res raster image.

                   

                  So to turn the question around: Is there something special about the Fireworks native file format that preserves detail? Oops. There is no native Fireworks format. So yeah, you can export the vector paths--which it would otherwise and by "native" default bury in an open format PNG file--to antequated legacy .ai or .eps. But then you'd end up having to open and edit those files in a PostScript-capable program anyway, to make them suitable for color-separated print output.

                   

                  For a related recent discussion, see this thread:

                  http://forums.adobe.com/message/2307058#2307058

                   

                  JET

                  • 6. Re: why illustrator for vectors?
                    Wade_Zimmerman Level 6

                    However the end results for use on the web would be png in the modern use of the file for the web.

                     

                    The OP is a web designer and the advantages of png 24 are obvious, like transparency with drop shadows after export and I would think the
                    the logo would usually be supplied the OP if they are a web designer, I would think that one would not choose a web designer to design a logo in the first place unless it was a very small entity that was seeking such services.

                     

                    At least I have never heard of a web designer being heard to design a logo. It is certainly the wrong approach.

                    • 7. Re: why illustrator for vectors?
                      JETalmage Level 6
                      However the end results for use on the web would be png in the modern use of the file for the web.


                      Modern use? Bandwidth is everything on the web. Would a "modern" (i.e.; knowlegeable) web designer bloat web-delivered image files with unused application-specific Chunks?

                       

                      The OP is a web designer

                       

                      The thread originator is asking a question about WHY one uses vector graphics programs for LOGO design assignments!

                       

                      At least I have never heard of a web designer being heard to design a logo.

                       

                      You know, I can't do anything about what you've never "heard of...being heard [sic] to design..." But I dare say many, if not most, of the regulars in this very forum are illustrators and/or designers for both print and web.

                       

                      JET

                      • 8. Re: why illustrator for vectors?
                        spotted-dog Level 1

                        thank you for your reply, although i haven't gotten around to reading your suggestions for my inquiry.

                         

                        not capitalizing letters is only stylistic for me.  i borrowed it many years ago when i was exposed to the poetry of e.e. cummings in university.  like him, my use of lowercase letters is intended as a gesture of humility.

                         

                        in all formal correspondneces i use the mla style maual as a guide.

                        • 9. Re: why illustrator for vectors?
                          JETalmage Level 6

                          So you and 50 million others dilute e. e. 's schtick by copy-catting it. Clever. But I do hope your logo designs are more original.

                           

                          Rest assured your irrefutable humility is evidenced by your "humbly" trying to draw attention to it with every sentence you type. What I don't understand is how failure to capitalize any sentence reflects personal humility?

                           

                          ;-)

                           

                          JET

                          • 10. Re: why illustrator for vectors?
                            Harron K. Appleman Level 4
                            like him, my use of lowercase letters is intended as a gesture of humility.

                             

                            Thanks for clearing that up. I had interpreted it as evidence of either sloth or a defective keyboard.

                            • 11. Re: why illustrator for vectors?
                              JETalmage Level 6

                              il

                              lu

                              st

                              ra

                              to

                              rf

                              ai

                              ls

                               

                              hey, look! i'm a poet!

                               

                              ;-)

                               

                              jet

                              (a humble one, too!)

                              • 12. Re: why illustrator for vectors?
                                Wade_Zimmerman Level 6

                                You're really not supposed to attack other users.

                                Especially since it wasn't provoked in any way.

                                • 13. Re: why illustrator for vectors?
                                  oldutch

                                  Humility is in behavior...not typography

                                  • 14. Re: why illustrator for vectors?
                                    Doug Katz Level 4

                                    Ah... but typography IS behavior.

                                    • 15. Re: why illustrator for vectors?
                                      oldutch Level 1

                                      Hogwash...look it up in your Funk&Wagnalls

                                      • 16. Re: why illustrator for vectors?
                                        PrepressPro1 Adobe Community Professional

                                        AAWWK! gesture of humility. AAWWK.

                                        • 17. Re: why illustrator for vectors?
                                          Doug Katz Level 4

                                          Funk & Wagnalls. Yes. The ultimate authority on what qualifies as behavior. You, the late Johnny Carson and Laugh-In's writers are in full accord on this. Far be it from me to challenge such venerated arbiters of definitional lines.

                                           

                                          When I deliberately choose minuscules to begin my sentences, and I do so precisely to project an image of myself (be it humility, contrariness, cheap imitation of a poet, indolence or even ignorance), and that image I intend to project is for the express purpose of having a social impact, I suppose I'm not behaving. I'm just idly passing gas.

                                           

                                          I'll look it up in my Funk & Wagnalls. You look it up in your Wittgenstein.

                                          • 18. Re: why illustrator for vectors?
                                            panfried Level 1

                                            i'm with jetalmage... I mean JETalmage! Momentary lapse of humility. (bla, puke, ugh)