11 Replies Latest reply on Dec 6, 2009 6:42 PM by Steve Grisetti

    I need a new workflow?

    Wucky Level 1



      I think I need help with my workflow.  Now that I’m on HD (DV tape based) and Pre7, it’s not working so well for me.   With help from some of you, I’m making progress (thanks), but I don’t yet see this working for me.



      • Shoot DV tape (an older Canon Optura 50).
      • Capture (1394) via PrEl.  Scenes split upon capture.
      • Edit by pulling the different avi files onto the time line.   
      • Delete the lousy files altogether,  trim down the ones with potential.  
      • Get the clip to where it needed (length & content, leaving room for handles), then export it  (ctrl+m…  work area bar ..  don't put onto timeline, just save file) into a folder.   
      • Get rid of the original, captured clip (to save HDD space) retain the actual tape in case I ever needed to recapture.
      • Using organizer, tag the various clips  . . . ratings terms, etc. that would later allow me to compile clips into the project.
      • Doing this, I was able to collect assets  . .. as many as 4,000 for one project, and construct cool projects.
      • Construct the projects in pieces  . . . no one segment more than four minutes long . . .  piece them together at the end to have projects ranging from 15 to 55 minutes.   Worked well.



      That was a couple years ago…  now I have the "benefits" of HD.  Shooting with a Vixia HF30 (on tape).  I LOVE the clarity, but am doing poorly with the workflow.   PC is running XP Pro, CoreDuo 2.6GHz,  3 GB ram,  decent NVdia card… so it should have enough processing power.


      NEW WORKFLOW (so far)

      • Shoot in HD  DV tape (Canon Vixia)
      • Capture (1394) via PrEl.  Into a 1080i 30 project.  Single file, no scene splitting
      • Use HDVSplit to split the scenes into individual files.  This is pretty cool software
      • Then, pull the individual files into a project.
      • Edit them down and export Ctrl+m.

      Here's the problem - - - the only format that seems to maintain great quality is the work is “uncompressed Microsoft AVI”.  Two issues with that:

      1) Time to render and copy the clip…   a ~9 sec (287 frames) sample clip took 19 seconds.

      2) File size  the same 9 sec clip was 1,165,055 KB   !!!!     Heck, the original HDVSplit clip (41 secs , 1,252 frames) from which I took the 9 second piece was only 137,836KB

      More than a GB for a 9 second clip   . . . yikes !

      Of course, when I pull the clip back onto the time line, it comes in under a red bar and needs rendering  (another 24 secs)

      (Exporting in MS DV AVI format is a much smaller 35,444 KB, but the size is small and quality off)


      Can’t imaging doing this with hundreds or 000’s of clips?


      Ideas? I need a way to make and catalog the clips…  I’d like to do in HD, but I think I'm clearly doing something wrong here.


      I guess I could pull all the HD into an SD project and shift back to my old workflow (files sizes scale much smaller), but what’s the point of HD?

      At this point, I'd appreciate any ideas you have.



        • 1. Re: I need a new workflow?
          Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

          So what is your goal anyway, Chuck? Are you just trying to create a library of hi-def videos with all the boring stuff cut out?


          And what do you plan to do with this library? Are you going to use bits and pieces of it for future projects -- or just burn it all to BluRay?

          • 2. Re: I need a new workflow?
            Wucky Level 1

            Actually, this is how I do my projects   . . .  I pull together all the assets  (video clips, stills, graphics) and tag them in a database.  Then, I can pull them into various segments.   I learned the ctrl+m five years ago when it was suggested on the old forum by some guy named named Steve Grisetti.


            Example  - - -  I've done multiple soccer videos.  There are maybe 16 players on a team...  each is a tag.   There are great headers  . . . that's  a tag . . . don't forget awesome defensive plays  . . .  tag.   A tag for screwups / funny.    A tag for regular season play, a tag for post-season playoffs, etc.   


            This allows you to build it as you go.   So, as you start to compile a season end video, it's relatively simple to pull content.    Oops, you review the segments and see that one kid's hardly included... select the tag with their name and you can pull in a few more clips.   If you're documenting a season, you can see how the database is coming along and determine you need more footage of certain situations and then adjust the shooting priorities at the next couple games, etc.


            As you build the collection, possible themes come...  perhaps a song or two that might add an element or tie things together.


            SO...  goal is to assemble a collection of decent and tight clips  (leaving room for handles on each).  Tossing out all the superferlous stuff.    In shooting a 90 minute soccer game, there can be times when I end up with only  ten minutes of visually interesting stuff.


            I'm also compiling content to be used in a video for a cool company here in Seattle.   Different thing altogether, but will take a similar apporach (fewer digital assets, however).


            I don't usually take assets from one project and put onto another  . . .  especially when doing youth sports, this could create issues.

            • 3. Re: I need a new workflow?
              Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

              Sounds like a well-organized plan, Chuck!


              And how wise you are to take advice from that Grisetti goofball!


              That said, that HDV workflow should work great, and it shouldn't take much more room than DV-AVIs of equal length.

              • 4. Re: I need a new workflow?
                Wucky Level 1

                Steve -


                No, I do not think my current workflow will be possible.   There's one step that causes trouble  - - -    when I export the whittled down clip  (ctrl+m).


                Please re-look my post (okay, it was too long).... 

                **** a 41 sec (1252 frames) clip from HDVSplit was 137,836K

                **** when I exported 9 seconds (287 frames) using the ctrl+m, the 9 sec clip was 1,165,055 K  !!!!

                That won't work, unless I but terabyte after terabyte of storage and quit my job to copy and render clips full-time.


                I need a better way to whittle down a clip, save it in a different file of the same quality and have the file size not grow by more than 700%.


                Thoughts and ideas ????


                Thanks !

                • 5. Re: I need a new workflow?
                  Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                  I have no idea why a 9 second clip, saved as HDV, is coming out that huge, Chuck. Are you sure you're using the HDV output setting? And have you watched the clip to ensure it actually is only 9 seconds long? It looks to me like, for some reason, you're outputting a 5 or 6 minute clip.



                  • 6. Re: I need a new workflow?
                    Wucky Level 1

                    Nope, it's 9 seconds.


                    I actually placed the clip on the timeline.  Placed it along side the orginal HDVSplit clip (41 seconds, pared to 9 secs on timeline), and also the same clip in MS-DV AVI (much smaller files size, smaller size, lesser quality).  All of them the same time length.

                    • 7. Re: I need a new workflow?
                      Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                      And you created it using Share/Personal Computer/MPEG with the 1440x1080 preset?


                      That should give you good, compact HDV video.

                      • 8. Re: I need a new workflow?
                        Wucky Level 1

                        OKAY   . . . that seems to be it!


                        I had been saving the clip by exporting it  (ctrl+m)  . . .   I'd never tried the "share" tool.


                        Test this evening  on the same 14 second clip. Saving a clip from an HD (1080) project...

                        Exporting uncompressed MS AVI  yielded a file of 1,737,271KB

                        Share MPEG 1440x 1080i  55,064KB   !!!!!!!!!!!!

                        Image quality looks fine either way.


                        I'll need to practice this, see if there are any shortcuts as I expect I'll be doing a lot of sharing.



                        Thanks,  Steve !



                        • 9. Re: I need a new workflow?
                          Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                          Sounds like you're on the right track, Chuck. Glad I could help!

                          • 10. Re: I need a new workflow?
                            Wucky Level 1

                            Follow-up Question   ...


                            If my camera is capturing onto tape at 1920 x 1080, should I use that (not 1440 x 1080) when saving the clips?   I'd imagine the file size (and rendering time, etc.) would be larger in 1920, but curious as to what I'm sacrificng ?


                            Thanks for any thoughts.

                            • 11. Re: I need a new workflow?
                              Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                              If your camera shoots in 1920x1080, then it's shooting in non-standard video, Wucky, since standard video (the video that Premiere Elements is designed to work with) use non-square pixels.


                              But if that 1920x1080 is working for you, you're fortunate. Sometimes, by the luck of how your system is set up, you can edit even square pixel video in this program.


                              Regardless, though, you want to export standard, non-square pixels if you want your DVD or BluRay player to play the file.


                              So you definitely do want 1440x1080 for BluRay.