16 Replies Latest reply: Nov 2, 2009 9:35 AM by Joel Cherney RSS

    Creating a small "o" with a dash over it??

    Ballyshannon Community Member

      I'm using IDCS2 on a PC and need to know how to create a small "o" with a horizontal dash over the "o". I'm doing a story for a product named Zon that has a dash over the "o" so it's pronounced Zone. I have a character reference chart for Windows using keyboard strokes and has all sorts of different "o" characters but not one with a dash.

       

      Word has the character available but when I paste the story into InDesign, the "o" with the dash disappears. The only way I can accomplish what I need that I can see is to wait until the story is finalized then actually draw a dash. ?????

       

      Any ideas how to get the actual "o" with a dash character into InDesign?

        • 1. Re: Creating a small "o" with a dash over it??
          Scott Falkner Community Member

          Look in the Glyphs panel to see if the character with the accent is available. If not, look for the accent itself, enter it after the “o”, and kern the pair until you get the look you are after. If that”s not an option, type a hyphen, horizontally scale it if necessary, shift it up and kern the pair as above.

          • 2. Re: Creating a small "o" with a dash over it??
            Larry G. Schneider MVP

            Try using the Glyph panel from the type menu. It appears that the one you want is 014D in Unicode.

            • 3. Re: Creating a small "o" with a dash over it??
              Joel Cherney MVP

              Word has the character available but when I paste the story into InDesign, the "o" with the dash disappears.

              Either a) you're using a font in Word that has that character, or b) Word is automatically combining the letter "o" with the macron (that's the name of the horizontal line). Since IDCS2 won't support combining characters the way that Word will, you'd probably have to pick one of the suggestions posted above.

               

              In your shoes, I'd pick a font that actually has an o-with-macron in it, instead of combining a macron glyph with an "o" glyph, as suggested by Scott. Because, if you roll your own o-with-macron in this way, you have to remember that you've done so, or you'll forget and change the font size, which will make your macron appear off-center, or disappear behind the "o," or accidentally cause some other visual error.

              • 4. Re: Creating a small "o" with a dash over it??
                Ballyshannon Community Member

                Appreciate all the suggestions. The magazine I do the layout for uses a particular font for the story text (Goudy Old Style) so can't use a different font for the "o". Realizing there's no perfect way to accomplish this task, the easiest fix was simply drawing a .25 line above the "o" (about the same length as I saw it in Word) and grouping it with the story text after I got the story laid out the way I wanted it. Printed it out and looks fine.

                 

                It's just disappointing this very popular and widely used layout program can't produce this character. Any idea if vowels with macrons are available in more recent versions of ID?

                • 5. Re: Creating a small "o" with a dash over it??
                  Joel Cherney MVP

                  You don't get it.

                  It's just disappointing this very popular and widely used layout program can't produce this character. Any idea if vowels with macrons are available in more recent versions of ID?

                  Vowels with macron are available in any font that has them.

                   

                  More recent versions of InDesign will use combining accents, so you can key accents into fonts that don't have them built in, assuming the font is well-made and has combining accents. You're years behind on CS2.

                  • 6. Re: Creating a small "o" with a dash over it??
                    [Jongware] MVP

                    It's not ID that missed this! It's not in the font you are using -- period.

                    That said, if your font has a "combining macron" (and not the stand-alone character), all versions of ID will happily place it over the preceding character. OpenType-featured fonts may even adjust its position automatically, to get it centred correct.

                     

                    Word does all kinds of things to fonts that are not supposed to happen behind the user's back -- automatically grabbing characters from other fonts is one (faking bold and italics is another -- shudder!). It's not a good reference point for any typographically challenging software.

                    • 7. Re: Creating a small "o" with a dash over it??
                      Ballyshannon Community Member

                      You're right...and I'm embarrassed because I knew this and have no idea why I wasn't considering a font set must contain particular symbols in order to display them. It's not that I don't get it....I just wasn't thinking in those terms when I penned the original post and that last reply. So thanks for the reminder and pardon my temporary stupidity.

                       

                      And regarding being years behind on ID, you're not telling me anything I'm not aware of.

                       

                      Bottom line is the immediate issue has been remedied, and I do appreciate all the comments.

                      • 8. Re: Creating a small "o" with a dash over it??
                        Michael Gianino Community Member

                        Ballyshannon wrote:


                        …when I penned the original post…

                        You did all that with a pen? Man, you have good penmanship. I have to use a computer to make it look that clear.

                        • 9. Re: Creating a small "o" with a dash over it??
                          Joel Cherney MVP

                          Yikes, sorry for being harsh. I don't understand how I could whack "Post" on that message. Anyhow,

                          [Jongware] wrote:


                          That said, if your font has a "combining macron" (and not the stand-alone character), all versions of ID will happily place it over the preceding character.

                           

                          Are you really sure about that? I had no end of hassle back in CS2 with combining accents in Vietnamese. I can't say I ever tried to use combining accents during that time on anything that was, you know, nice and easy and European, but I must have written 100k of raw text email that year about how combining accents in Vietnamese didn't work in ID.

                          • 10. Re: Creating a small "o" with a dash over it??
                            Scott Falkner Community Member

                            THis is Adobe’s OpenType version of Goudy Old Style. I cannot test the PostScript version. The macron is available in the Glyphs panel, and I entered it with a double-click. I positioned it over the “o” with manual kerning, but needed no baseline shift. This means that any resizing of the text will keep the text looking the same. Of course, since this is entirely done in text, it will flow as the text is edited as well. You really should not use a line for this, as the option to do it with text is superior in every way.

                             

                            Screen shot 2009-10-29 at 7.51.23 PM.png

                            • 11. Re: Creating a small "o" with a dash over it??
                              [Jongware] MVP
                              ..  I can't say I ever tried to use combining accents ..

                               

                              It's not something you can try on for size, the font has to contain them.

                               

                              Accents come in two distinct flavours: combining and non-combining (aka. non-spacing and spacing -- the other way around). The non-combining usually are centred in a half-em space, with that half-em being its character width. Typing them will insert them to the right of your base character, 'above' an empty space. As Scott shows, you need to move the accent to the left by eye.

                              The combining ones, on the other hand, have a zero width and are drawn on the left hand side of 'empty space'. If you insert them right after a base character, this accent will automatically appear above this character. It is not perfect because the font designer has to decide which character width to base the positioning on (a, e, o, u, or even dotless i -- or even w, n, m, c ... ) and it will look good for some combo's where others still need some manual fine tuning.

                               

                              Fonts that include separate accents usually just have the spacing ones. Off-hand, Arial Unicode MS is one font that has both 'flavours' -- I can insert first an 'a', then a '̀' to see (and if you don't have that font on your system, it looks like this: à).

                               

                              OpenType fonts may contain tables that positions arbitrary accents onto any character, and always in the correct position, but ID lags behind with proper support for this.

                              • 12. Re: Creating a small "o" with a dash over it??
                                [Jongware] MVP

                                By the way, one way to have diacritics at your fingertips is to use Peter Kahrels Compose script. It allows easy access to all built-in combined characters and can also handle the non-combining accents I mentioned above.

                                I use this script so often that I assigned a hotkey to it, and almost consider it a part of ID now.

                                 

                                A full review is on http://indesignsecrets.com/easy-diacritics-and-other-tough-glyphs.php

                                • 13. Re: Creating a small "o" with a dash over it??
                                  Joel Cherney MVP

                                  [Jongware] wrote:

                                  ..  I can't say I ever tried to use combining accents ..
                                  
                                  

                                   

                                  It's not something you can try on for size, the font has to contain them.

                                   


                                  I thought that your post was all old news to me - but I actually learned something. My experience, in ID CS, CS2, and CS3, had been that when attempting to place a Vietnamese RTF document that had been keyed in a font using combining accents, characters relying on combining accents were very likely to drop. Because I never key things directly into ID, I'd never even tried to use combining accents by typesetting them in InDesign. Whaddya know, combiners work just fine in CS3.

                                   

                                   

                                  • 14. Re: Creating a small "o" with a dash over it??
                                    Mr. Met Community Member

                                    How many of us will ever type in Vietnamese? For English, there are keystrokes that will put an accent over most of the common letters that need them. Will work with a ton of fonts that don't have that glyph.

                                     

                                    Took me a few minutes but I found my cheat sheet. These use to ship with QX or Adobe apps back in the 90s.

                                     

                                    compositecharacters.jpg

                                    • 15. Re: Creating a small "o" with a dash over it??
                                      [Jongware] MVP
                                      Will work with a ton of fonts that don't have that glyph.

                                       

                                      That's not quite true.

                                      You are describing the OS built-in feature that temporarily stores the accent and checks the next key press for a valid combination -- "valid",  as in, "this is a common combination". Then it sends this character code to the program as a single character.

                                       

                                      Experiment #1: insert any accented character into InDesign your way. Position the cursor immediately to the right of that character; hold shift and move one position left. Does the Info panel show a single character ("a", "o", "i", or whatever you chose)? If you select the character to its left, do you get just the accent? No -- ID got one single (accented) character.

                                       

                                      Experiment #2: Some fonts, such as Minion, come with an extended Latin set of accented characters. One of these is 'n acute'. So, press option-e (to get an acute), then 'n'. Do you get an n-acute? (The answer is -- most likely -- "No".)

                                       

                                      Experiment #3: Select a font that does not have one of these accented glyphs (most users will have such fonts, PD, downloaded somewhere, you know). Insert an accented character from your list that's not in the font, according to the Glyph list. It will be inserted as a pink box.

                                      • 16. Re: Creating a small "o" with a dash over it??
                                        Joel Cherney MVP

                                        Mr. Met wrote:

                                         

                                        How many of us will ever type in Vietnamese?

                                         

                                        Well, I'll only key in Vietnamese once a month or so, but I'll place Vietnamese RTFs documents on a daily basis. And, while keying combining accents directly into InDesign works quite well (which was a surprise for me), over the years I've found placing RTFs with obvious use of combining accents to be problematic in older versions of ID, such as CS2. Sometimes ID will catch the drop and flag it as a substituted character, but in other cases (where, say, o-with-horn typed with a combining hook above drops to y with acute) it won't flag it at all.

                                         

                                        I'm grumpy enough about your "Oh, who needs to type in those obscure languages?" comment to shoot your post to pieces, but fortunately Jongware has already done so.