32 Replies Latest reply: Dec 8, 2009 5:41 PM by Sunday Morn RSS

    How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?

    Sunday Morn

      I'm using the PrintBooklet feature of Indesign.

       

      I'm using "2-up perfect bound".

       

      All I want to do is: print "even pages only, reverse", then flip the paper, feed it back into the printer, and print "odd pages only, reverse"on the other side.  (In both cases, I will check ALL pages, as I want the program to go thru the whole book in doing that.) 

       

      Problem:  I can't get the section in Print Settings to "un-grey" that "Even pages only, Odd pages only" stuff.

       

      In other words, I have a small test booklet consisting (as one looks at the screen)  of 8 pages, page           1 (by itself on the screen)

                                                                                                      ...................pages 2 and 3 (facing each other on the screen)

       

                                                                                                      ...................pages 4 and 5 (facing each other on the screen)

                                                                                                      ...................pages 6 and 7 (facing each other on the screen)

                                                                                                      ..........and page 8 (by itself on the screen)

       

      (Those are the logical page numbers - the physical page numbers, being 1,2,3, and 4 -  2 logical pages facing each other, but not as they face each other on the screen - instead, as I want them to print facing each other.)

       

      So what I want to happen, is:

                                                                                                      have the printer print ONLY logical pages 8 and 5 (on one piece of paper),

                                                                                                      then logical pages 1 and 4 (on another  piece of paper)

                                                                                                      (those were the "even pages only", in reverse order)

       

                                                                                                      I'd take those physical pieces of paper, flip them over, put them back in the                                                                                                             printer, and have the printer print logical pages 6 and 7 on the back of 8 and 5,

                                                                                                      then logical pages 2 and 3 (on the back of 1 and 4)

                                                                                                      (those were the "odd pages only", in reverse order)

       

      This makes what I call TWO 4-page (page referring in this case to logical page) signatures.  They can be folded and then what the reader will read is (beginning from the title page, which is logical page 1): 1, turn the page, 2 and 3, turn the page to see the back of the first 4-page signature (4), look over to the first page of the second 4-page signature and read 5, turn the page, read 6 and 7, then turn to the last page which is 8.

       

      I could do this in Pagemaker 6.5, using the BuildBook feature.     

       

      Thanx!

       

      Sunday Morn

       

        • 1. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
          Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

          Print Booklet won't do this directly. If you have a full version of Acrobat installed you can print to the Adobe PDF virtual printer, then do the manual duplexing printing from Acrobat.

           

          If you don't have a full version of Acrobat, you can use a script to impose the file, then export to PDF and print from Reader.

          • 2. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
            Sunday Morn Community Member

            Peter -

             

            I guess that means Adobe Acrobat 9, which I apparently have to purchase - I can see from a google that I can get it for $88.  Will do.

             

            Thanks..

             

            Sunday Morn

            • 3. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
              Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

              Version isn't important as long as it's a full Acrobat, not just reader.

               

              $88 would be a bargain, even for an upgrade. Be sure the product is legitimate and not an education version (unless you qualify for education licensing).

               

              As I mentioned before you can use a script to impose, then EXPORT spreads, and print from reader.

               

              http://pdsassoc.com/downloads/Buildbooklet.zip

              http://products.carlsenenterprises.com/

              • 4. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                Sunday Morn Community Member

                Peter -

                 

                Thank you for your prompt reply.

                 

                The first link I downloaded, and will have to look at.  I have never written a script before.  I was a computer programmer a long long time ago .....

                 

                The second link came up with a can't find msg.

                 

                May be lazy and get  - no, I can't - the $88 version is for  Windows, not for Mac - Acrobat from get-mvp-.....com.  Will have to pay more if I decide to get it.

                 

                Thanks!

                 

                Sunday Morn (afternoon by now!)

                • 5. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                  Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                  No skill is required to run a script that someone else has written. Just put it in the scripts folder and run it.

                   

                  I've been using the first one for years, and I don't write scripts myself.

                  • 6. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                    Sunday Morn Community Member

                    Hi Peter,

                     

                    Unaccustomed as I am to using Indesign, I tried two things to start:

                     

                    Scenario #1:

                    1. made an 8-page doct file (not a book)(pages 1-8, in that order, using double-page spreads)

                    2. used the script from the first link above (BuildBooklet.jsx) on it

                    creating an 8-page signature

                     

                    but I wanted a 4-page signature (two, actually), so I did

                     

                    Scenario #2:

                    1. Did a File/New Book

                    2. Added the original 8-page doct file created in 1. of Scenario #1 as the first doct of the book

                    3. double-clicked on the script  thinking it would do the whole book (actually just one doct)  (BuildBooklet.jsx) but it didn't run

                    4. looked at the first doct and it was in its original format (pages 1-8, in that order)

                    unchanged

                     

                     

                    What did I do wrong?

                     

                    Thanks!

                     

                    Sunday Morn

                    • 7. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                      Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                      The sript works with ordinary facing pages documents set up in consecutive order, so if you have 8 pages, you need an 8-page doc set up as facing pages. Page 1 will appear by itself, 2-7 will be on 3 2-page spreads, and page 8 will be alone. You musthave a multiple of 4 pages.

                       

                      When it is run, the script will make a new file with a copy of your pages. These pages will be shuffled into 2-page spreads in proper order for printing on your duplex printer or non-duplex printer if you flip the sheets manually. You can eihter print direct from ID or export the imposed doc to PDF, but in either case you must select the "spreads" option checkbox to get both halves of each spread to stay together.

                      • 8. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                        Sunday Morn Community Member

                        Peter -

                         

                        Yes, but what bothers me is that when I got buildbooklet.jsx to work it gave me <1> signature made from those 8 (logical) pages rather than <2>.

                         

                        What I want to end up with (assuming that the resulting "book" contains only 8 logical pages) is:

                         

                        on the first physical (letter-size) piece of paper:

                        4 and 1 on the outside of the piece of paper:(4 on the left and 1 on the right)

                        and (if you flip that piece of paper):

                        2 and 3 on the inside  (2 on the left and 3 on the right)

                         

                        then

                         

                         

                        on the second physical (letter-size) piece of paper:

                        8 and 5 on the outside of the piece of paper:(8 on the left and 5 on the right)

                        and (if you flip that piece of paper):

                        6 and 7 on the inside  (6 on the left and 7 on the right)

                        Without printing what I got, I can see that I won't get that from this (Scenario 1) output, because the pages as reorganized by the script read:
                        8 on the left, 1 on the right
                        2 on the left, 7 on the right
                        6 on the left, 3 on the right
                        4 on the left, 5 on the right.
                        (nowhere in those pages is a page reading 4 on the left, and 1 on the right, for example)
                        Sunday -
                        • 9. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                          Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                          How is this document set up? Page size and orientation, number of pages in each spread?

                           

                          It sounds like you haven't got things set up correctly. Running the script should yield an eight-page file with four two-page spreads.

                          • 10. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                            Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                            Sorry, I wasn't reading carefully enough. The script is working correctly. Pages 1 and 8 must be together for saddle stitching. You need to insert one signature insde the other and stitch with this script. The order you are proposing would be appropriate for perfect binding, which is a different scenario.

                             

                            I don't know why the Carlsen linkk is not going to the right place, but it isn't. However, the script appears to be available here: http://www.brothersoft.com/booklet-ce-211859.html

                             

                            I haven't used it, but it does support perfect binding, I believe.

                            • 11. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                              Sunday Morn Community Member

                              Peter -

                               

                              This is a real challenge for me, esp since I have other stuff in my life going on (who doesn't?). 

                               

                              The good news: I ordered Acrobat 9 the other day for Mac, and it should arrive today.  I was going to pay them approx $35 for the privilege of having it around as a default in case I couldn't use the script option (retn fee plus priority S&H).  So I can just keep it!

                               

                              The bad news: 2nd link you found is for Windows only, and I have a Mac.

                              I know I have an elaborate situation, and one I can't change.  I still don't miss my PC.
                              Thanks for spending so much time on this. If you hear of a Mac link, let me know.  Assuming the software arrives this aft, I will open it tonit (after which I can't return it).  I will check this forum before I open it.
                              Sunday

                              • 12. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                That's a javascript, which is completely cross-platform. I don't know why it says Windows. True, the download file is in zip format, but it will unzip on Mac, too, and all the Mac resource fork components are there.

                                • 13. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                  Sunday Morn Community Member

                                  Peter -

                                   

                                  Thanks - will go back for it.

                                   

                                  Sunday

                                  • 14. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                    Sunday Morn Community Member

                                    Peter -

                                     

                                    Installed second script. 

                                     

                                    Used. 

                                     

                                    Said "perfect-bound". 

                                     

                                    Had best luck with 1 sheet per signature (2 gave me a page with 8 facing 1, which I didn't want, and 4 it wouldn't allow, saying it needed 16 logical pages to do a signature that large).

                                     

                                    Even 1 sheet per signature gave me a page with 8 facing 1, if I used "interleaved fronts and backs".

                                     

                                    So I was down to 1 sheet per signature, "Fronts, then backs" or  "Fronts, then backs (in reverse order)". (2 diff. scenarios - tried each)

                                     

                                    Tried to print the pages output from these scenarios. Indesign and the script had created separate pdf files so I couldn't seem to get Adobe Reader to print more than 1 page at a time (maybe there's a way, I just couldn't find it.)

                                     

                                    So tried to print using the Print Booklet feature of InDesign, which I know you didn't mean for me to use, but I couldn't see any other way.

                                     

                                    With the Fronts, then backs (in reverse order) output, and In Reverse Order checked in Print Settings, it printed 8....5, then 3....2.

                                     

                                    But then what, I said to myself.  I put those two pages back in the printer, print side facing up, and tops of pages facing to the right, but how to get 6....7 and 1.....4 to print on the other side?  What to change in the PrintBooklet dialog screen?  (Maybe that's why you said I don't want to use InDesign to print).

                                     

                                    So here I am.  Any suggestions? ("Fronts, then backs" would have a similar problem, I believe).

                                     

                                    Sunday

                                    • 15. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                      Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                      I've never tried the Carlsen script, so I only know what the author has said it will do. Not much help, I'm afraid. Can I ask though, why you would want to perfect bind two sheets?

                                       

                                      And yes, the reason I steered you away from Print Booklet is that it doesn't handle ranges terribly well. I think you might be able to do it, though, now that I'm wracking my memory, by specifying 2-up consecutive and entering your ranges (whcih would be a real nightmare with a longer doc). Normally I tell people to use Print Booklet and specify Adobe PDF as the printer, then print from Acrobat one side at a time (or odds and evens), but you didn't have Arobat before, so you didn't have the PDF printer available. If you decide to keep Acrobat (you said you ordered it?), then that will probably be the easiest way to continue.

                                      • 16. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                        Sunday Morn Community Member

                                        Peter -

                                         

                                        I print books for a concern that is going to take the pages, fold them, and bind them.

                                         

                                        The outer side of each fold (and there can't be any other folds inside it!) will be touching this strip of goo that melts in the binding machine (similar to a toaster).

                                         

                                        Thus this "toaster" takes the outer fold of each strip (like a folded piece of lettuce in a pita wrap - sorry to mix metaphors) and links it, goo-wise, to the folded inside of the pita wrap (in this case, the cover of the book).

                                         

                                        Yes, I will keep Acrobat, and yes, it came yesterday.

                                         

                                        You've been a "beacon in time of need" (trying not to get into any more metaphors I might mix!) and I may yet need your help, but I will try not. 

                                         

                                        Sunday Morn

                                        • 17. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                          Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                          Mixed or not, the explanation is clear and makes sense. You perfect bind regardless of the number of pages. That's your workflow. Simple.

                                           

                                          Did using Print Booklet and Acrobat solve the problem?

                                          • 18. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                            Sunday Morn Community Member

                                            Peter -

                                             

                                            Successfully exported the sample booklet to a pdf file, and am now about to install Acrobat and print.  It may be Wednesday before I get back, as M and T are my busiest days away from home, and it will not be till Wed that I really give Acrobat a workout.

                                             

                                            Thanks!

                                             

                                            Sunday

                                            • 19. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                              Sunday Morn Community Member

                                              Peter -

                                               

                                              Thought I'd get back to you and tell you how I was doing. 

                                               

                                              Re using Acrobat to print:  turns out update 9.1.3 is necessary to get Acrobat find-tuned to do what I want it to do (the manual duplexing), and I ordered 9.0 from Adobe, so I am having to download some upgrades and install them in order: 9.1, 9.1.1, 9.1.2, and 9.1.3.  There is a 9.2, but the "Indesign secrets" blog I looked at specified to the 9.1.3 level, so I'm going to stop there.

                                               

                                              http://indesignsecrets.com/acrobats-adobe-pdf-printer-replaced-in-snow-leopard.php (see "For this new feature to work...")

                                               

                                              (The first one was a real big one, and I just have dial-up, so it took me somewhere around 6-8 hours.)

                                               

                                              Am downloading the last one now.  Will install tomorrow and retry the printing.

                                               

                                              I also have to import the old .p65 file into Indesign, and since it (Indesign) shifts things around a little bit, will have to do some adjusting there.

                                               

                                              But .... things are getting done, albeit slowly.

                                               

                                              Thanks for your help.  I will keep you posted.  Who know, maybe someone else will have to do this.

                                               

                                              Sunday Morn (again)

                                              • 20. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                                Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                                I'm glad you're making progress. Why do you need to re-open the Pagemaker file?

                                                • 21. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                                  Sunday Morn Community Member

                                                  Peter -

                                                   

                                                  I'm using the old .p65 file because that seems the quickest way to duplicate the book I printed with Pagemaker under Windows.  I need to fool with the flow a little bit, but when I tried placing the raw text of the book I'm going to print into the double-faced shell, I got all kind of weird tags - even when I placed the text as modified by Pagemaker tags into the shell, this happened.  So the quickest way to duplicate the Windows/Pagemaker printed book seems to be to click on the old .p65 file, and slide it around a bit (the type size, fonts, etc. are a perfect duplicate of what was in the old book).  I asked Adobe over the phone when I bought Indesign, and they said I could convert the old files.

                                                   

                                                  Sunday

                                                  • 22. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                                    Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                                    Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you'd already opened the PM file in ID once, and wondered why you would need to do that again.

                                                    • 23. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                                      Sunday Morn Community Member

                                                      Hi, Peter -

                                                       

                                                      Am focusing on the conversion of that .p65 file to Indesign, and am having a problem. (YOU MIGHT WANT TO READ THE CONCLUDING SENTENCE OF THIS POST FIRST, WHERE I THINK OUT THE PROBLEM TO WHAT MUST BE ITS REAL ORIGIN) 

                                                       

                                                      I can click on the .p65 file, and it converts it to an .indd file, but after I do that I have to shift text around a bit.  That's not a huge problem - I print out the file, mark all the places where I want to shove something over to another page, etc. , but then when I go to do it on the computer two more problems arise, one definitely connected to the double-page spread, and the other possibly connected to the double-page spread:

                                                       

                                                      The one definitely connected to the double-page spread: Indesign (in converting the .p65 file), swaps the contents of two of the pages in each 4-page signature, so that where I had:

                                                       

                                                      page 4 containing text D ......... and (opposite it on the double-page spread) page 1 containing text A

                                                      then page 2 containing text B ....  and (opposite it on the double-page spread) page 3 containing text C

                                                      (all this so that I could fold the printed page once and have the reader read A,B,C, and D in that order before going on to the next 4-page signature)

                                                       

                                                      now I have:

                                                      page 4 containing text C ......... and (opposite it on the double-page spread) page 1 containing text A

                                                      then page 2 containing text D ....  and (opposite it on the double-page spread) page 3 containing text C

                                                      (which is not good because the reader would read the pages in the following order once the page was folded: A,B,D, and C)

                                                       

                                                      I hate to say this, but it does that for every 4-page signature.

                                                       

                                                      And (and here's the kicker), I was even willing to take that, just as an experiment, and swap out every C with D, but then it appears that when I try to do that, and successfully create the first 4-page signature the way I want it, Indesign copies some the stuff from the 4-page signature (usu. text A, which I did not even touch, further on down the file, so that I find it again as I am trying to move on and correct the next 4-page signature.

                                                       

                                                      Actually, that second problem is not connected to the double-page spread, because it doesn't happen when I'm fooling with an ordinary, unconverted double-page file.  I can delete things all I like and they don't get copied elsewhere.

                                                       

                                                      I JUST DISCOVERED WHAT MUST BE THE REAL PROBLEM: WHEN I BRING THE .P65 FILE INTO INDESIGN, IS THERE ANY WAY TO TELL IT TO START ON A SINGLE-PAGE SPREAD, SO THAT I CAN HAVE PAGE 1 (ALL BY ITSELF) ON THE FIRST SCREEN, THEN PAGE 2 AND 3, THEN PAGE 4 AND 5, ETC.

                                                       

                                                      OR CAN I AT LEAST ADJUST IT TO THAT AFTER I GET THE FILE IN?

                                                       

                                                      WHAT I'M HAVING NOW, WHICH I DON'T HAVE WITH THE ORDINARY, UNCONVERTED DOUBLE-PAGE FILE, IS THAT THE CONVERTED FILE BEGINS WITH A DOUBLE PAGE.  THAT'S WHAT (MAY BE) CAUSING ALL THE PROBLEMS.

                                                       

                                                      Thanks!

                                                       

                                                      Sunday Morn (actually, Thanksgiving Morn)

                                                       

                                                      Sunday Morn

                                                      • 24. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                                        Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                                        Was the pagemaker doc already imposed into printers spreads? How about page numbering -- ID would start on a left page it the first page number is even.

                                                         

                                                        I'm going to have to go back to re-read the whole thread to see what you are trying to do, but you want to start out with the ID doc in consecutive (readers spread) order.

                                                        • 25. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                                          Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                                          I've sent you a Private Message with instruction for how to send the file to me, if you want to do that, and I'll take a look at it and see if it makes more sense.

                                                          • 26. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                                            Sunday Morn Community Member

                                                            Peter -

                                                             

                                                            OK, I can send you a private file.  How do I do it?

                                                             

                                                            sunday

                                                            • 27. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                                              Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                                              When you log onto the web page you should see a button in the bar next to your name called "your stuff" and it should be orange because you have a message from me already. Click it and go to Private Messages. I've sent you an email address in plain language. If you can't figure out how to translate the punctuation, post back here.

                                                              • 28. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                                                Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                                                I've been looking at your files and I'm 99% convinced that the problems stem mostly from the fact that you are opening the imposed version. WHY ID is rearrangeing the first 4 linked frames I don't know, but I chalk it up to Conversion can be anything from near perfect to awful. If that's the only place where order is out of synch (I didn't read the whole book to check the later sections, but spot checking appeared to be OK), you could just drag the frames onto the correct pages.

                                                                 

                                                                I think that in the long run you should consider doing it right, though, which means rebuilding the file as letter-half facing pages in readers spreads. You can do this by putting your cursor anywhere in the story and choosing File > Export... and export as tagged text. As long as you haven't made an actual selection, you will get the entire story, which can then be Placed into a new facing pages document.

                                                                 

                                                                This will allow you to clean it up (and frankly, the typesetting needs A LOT of cleanup -- empty paragraphs used for spacing, leading spaces instead of paragraph indents, multiple spaces after punctuation, etc. A lot of that can be cleaned up using the find/change by list script and editing styles. Adding a few styles to push some headings into the next frame would be a good idea too) and keep your sanity while you edit, and then you can make your imposed file.

                                                                 

                                                                I'd break it apart into sections, too, at logical breaks, rather than having one continuous threaded story. That will involve some cutting and pasting, and fancy footwork (not really hard) that is described among other places at this link: http://www.listsearch.com/InDesign/Thread/index.lasso?16825#131054. I went looking for a script that does this, but didn't find one, so if any onf you lurkers have one, please fell free to post it.

                                                                 

                                                                Peter

                                                                • 29. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                                                  Sunday Morn Community Member

                                                                  Peter  -

                                                                   

                                                                  Yes!  Exporting it and placing into a new shell worked!

                                                                   

                                                                  Sunday (almost) Morn

                                                                  • 30. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                                                    Sunday Morn Community Member

                                                                    Peter -

                                                                     

                                                                    After applying the Acrobat updates, I used Acrobat as you suggested to print a book - I did a Print Booklet in Indesign, sent it to a .pdf, took the .pdf into Acrobat, and printed it "Even pages only, over All pages, Reverse", then "Odd pages only, over All pages, Reverse" on the back of the first pass  (this message is pursuant to message 19 in this thread)

                                                                     

                                                                    Thanks!

                                                                     

                                                                    Sunday Morn (almost again!)

                                                                    • 31. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                                                      Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                                                      So it sounds like all is well, now.


                                                                      • 32. Re: How to get Indesign to print 4-page signatures?
                                                                        Sunday Morn Community Member

                                                                        Peter -

                                                                         

                                                                        So far, so good!

                                                                         

                                                                        Sunday Morn