Unfortunately, Premiere Elements will not interface with AVCHD Lite video.
Hopefully, someone will chime in soon with a way to convert the files to editable video.
I am in the process of working on this very same Premiere Elements 8 Panasonic fz35 AVCHD Lite issue (probably same user) elsewhere. The user referred to me to the following Sept 2009 post at your forum
saying that he had tried the Premiere Elements 7 patch in Premiere Elements 8 patch and it did not work. I doubted the applicability of said patch for AVCHD Lite editing in Premiere Elements 7 and subsequently in Premiere Elements 8. That Sept 2009 thread has more questions than answers and no real follow up support.
Yesterday I downloaded the same AVCHD Lite file posted by David in that Sept 2009 thread to see how it would handle in Premiere Elements 8 WITHOUT any patch. David’s AVCHD Lite was from a Canon, had .mov file extension, and was 720p60 (1280 x 720 at 59.94 progressive frames per second). I had no trouble bringing this file into Premiere Elements 7 or 8 and successfully editing it on the Timeline…..
As a template for Timeline editing, Premiere Elements project preset (new product dialog) = NTSC HDV HDV 720p30. When you bring this file into the workspace, go to the Project Media view, right click the file there, and select Interpret Footage, there is nothing to be done there since the footage is already set by the program to be interpreted at 59.94 frames per second (source medium). Rendering of the Timeline produced a good quality and stable view and playback in the Edit Mode Monitor. I stopped at that point to await feedback from the user.
It is hoped that the user will send me a copy of his file for testing if necessary since I could not find an online download sample for it. Perhaps if we are dealing with the same user here and at my other location, he can post a copy of the AVCHD Lite file (if under 5 MB) from his Panasonic in this thread. I am still not clear if the issue is still in the thinking about stage or whether the user has actually tried to import the AVCHD Lite and cannot for quality or other reasons.
At this point, I would take exception to a blanket statement that AVCHD Lite does not work in Premiere Elements 8, or, in this specific case, Premiere Elements 7.
To be continued, if necessary….
I have just downloaded your AVCHD Lite file, will check it out in my Premiere Elements 7 and 8, and report back with my findings as soon as possible.
I should have results for you by tomorrow morning since I am just about to call it a day.
To be continued.
I just took a look at your AVCHD Lite that you posted
The gspot utility did not tell me too much about the properties of the file:
a. No video or audio codecs listed
b. Did give 3.69 file size
c. No frame size or frame rate
d. It did say "File Type MPEG-2 Transport Stream; Mime Type: video/mp2t
I imported this file into Premiere Elements 8, using the project preset (new project dialog) = NTSC HDV HDV 720p30.
Once the workspace opened, I looked at its Properties in the Project Media view by right clicking the file there and selecting Properties. Premiere Elements 8 Properties told me:
1280 x 720
29.97 frames per second (I thought that you said that you were shooting 60 frames per second, so we need to clarify that)
pixel aspect ratio = square
Average Data Rate 1.2 MB/second
Video duration was about 3 seconds.
When I right clicked the file in the Project Media view and selected Interpret Footage, the Frame Rate was set at 29.97 frames per second by the program, not 60 frames per second as I had expected based on my study of David's Canon's AVCHD Lite with the .mov file extension.
Everything displayed well and play back well in the Edit Mode Monitor. Before going further, I need to know:
1. Was this 720p30 or 720p60 that you sent? My information that I am getting from the program says 30 frames per second, not 60 frames per second. I will check into that further tomorrow. Since your file has an .m2ts file extension I also want to see how it is handled by the HD converter Koyote Soft. But if you have the resources to handle the AVCHD projects that you will be doing, you should be OK as is.
2. What problems do you have with this file when/after you import this into your Premiere Elements 8?
I had no Premiere Elements problems with either David's AVCHD Lite .mov or your AVCHD Lite .m2ts. The video quality was excellent. There was not much sound in your 3 second clip to judge the sound quality, but it sounded normal for a Mall background.
This some follow up information that I am posting here and at the other forum:
I have pulled the Panasonic FZ35 User Manual to take a look at the settings offered and found the following.
That camera offers shooting with compression representing AVCHD Lite MPEG4/H.264 AVC OR Motion JPEG. I am not sure if the wrapper format is .mts or .m2ts for that AVCHD Lite and either .avi or .mov for the Motion JPEG.
These are the options that I found and I would like you to indicate which one represents the same that you sent for download:
AVCHD Lite (with audio)
1. SH: 1280 x 720 - 60 frames per second - 17 Mbps only with card.
2. H: 1280 x 720 - 60 frames per second - 13 Mbps only with card.
3. L: 1280 x 720 - 60 frames per second - 9 Mbps only with card.
MOTION JPEG (with audio)
1. HD: 1280 x 720 - 30 frames per second - only with card
2. WVGA: 848 x 480 - 30 frames per second - only with card
3. VGA: 640 x 480 - 30 frames per second - only with card
4. QVGA: 320 x 240 - 30 frames per second
All this goes to the video that you sent and its properties...
a. Because it has the .m2ts file extension, I would say AVCHD Lite
b. Because it shows 30 frames per second, that would push it into the Motion JPEG category and the HD setting.
Was what you sent a converted copy or the original from the camera?
Also, please confirm what the file extension is for AVCHD Lite from your Panasonic as well as the file extension for the MOTION JPEG counterpart from your Panasonic.
Windows Media Player and gspot info are pushing in the direction of Main Concept (Adobe 2) AVC/H.264 for the video sent.
Just an Add on to the Add on...
It looks like your Panasonic has a CCD sensor that captures 30 frames per second, but duplicates them to record 60 progresive frames per second in the case of the AVCHD Lite.
I used AVCHD lite with the L setting. This gave me 1hr and 54 minutes on a SDHC 8mb card. The file I sent had an extension of .m2ts. I believe AVCHD lite does not produce h.264 files. Canon's sx20 which supports HD uses h.264 but you can only get about 54 minutes to one hour on a sdhc 8mb card. Also, Canon provides only one setting of HD versuss Panasonics three levels of HD-SH, H.and L.. I picked the FZ35 because I wanted more movie capacity on a SDHC card.
The clip I sent you was not a converted file.
I checked the frame rate on the clip as imported on Photofun studio 4.0 supplied by Panasonic. It was 60fps. I checked the clip as imported into the Organizer and it was also 60fps(59.97). I believe that the conversion to 30fps occurs when the clip is imported into Premiere Elements with a HDV 720p30fps video preset. If this is the best that can be done it is barely acceptable.
I have read elsewhere that some other video editing software from Sony, Nero and Cyberlink can handle avchd lite. I have also read on another lengthy forum a load of complaints about the lack of support on Premiere Elements and Premiere CS4 for avchd. There were promises that Adobe would do something about this-but they haven't. It is unfortunate that Adobe which is supposed to have the best editing software and just released a new version of Premiere Elements which is not much of an improvement over version 7 has not provided support for AVCHD lite.
I sent an email to Adobe support a week ago asking them what video preset I should use for AVCHD lite 1280x720p 60fps and have not heard from them. They were supposed to respond in 3 business days!!!
You have gone out of your way to provide support. I really appreciate it!!!
Let me know if you find out what you find out about the 30fps reading vs what it shoud be -ie 60fps. If you can import the file into the Elements organizer you may see what I saw for the frame rate.
The Panasonic FZ35 users manual on p.113 under fps says
(Sensor output is 30fps)
I downloaded Sony Vegas Platinum and started a project. I looked at the frame rate. It was 59.97. Sony supports AVCHD so it didn't have to use an HDV video preset of 30fps . Since Premiere Elements doesn't support true AVCHD lite you have to use the HDV preset which downgrades the clip refresh rate.
Before doing anything else, could you please
(a) download the 20091018_120655.m2ts that you posted and that I am evaluating.
(b) read the Premiere Elements 8 as well as the Elements Organizer properties of that specific file, especially with regard to frame rate
(c) and let me know whether you see 59.94 (60) or 29.97 (30) frames per second.
Now back to the post that I had already prepared.
First the background information since my previous post:
Premiere Elements 8
Canon EOS 7D vs Panasonic FZ35 “AVCHD LITE”
I would question your description of the video from the Canon EOS 7D as just H.264 and not a subset of AVCHD.
It is my understanding that AVCHD has the video compression/codec = MPEG-4 AVC/H.264. AVCHD Lite (typically, but not always, 1280 x 720 p30 or p25) is a subset of AVCHD and is often characterized as Lite because it has the same video codec as AVCHD, but the resolution is less than AVCHD’s 1920 x 1080 (square pixels) or 1440 x 1080 (HD anamorphic).
In the case of the Canon EOS 7D is appears that its 1280 x 720p 60 (MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 compression) offering fits into the criteria for AVCHD Lite. But, keep in mind that it appears to have a QuickTime .mov wrapper which may confer different properties than another AVCHD Lite with a different wrapper format.
Enter the case of the Panasonic FZ35 where its 1280 x 720p60 and compression type of MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 fit the profile to be called AVCHD Lite. But in this case, the wrapper format is not QuickTime .mov, but rather .m2ts.
As indicated in the prior post, I am looking at video editing, using the Premiere Elements 8 project preset (new project dialog) = NTSC HDV HDV 720p30 and a downloaded Canon 7D AVCHD Lite recorded at 60 frames per second and the Panasonic FZ35 AVCHD Lite sample that you sent which is supposed to be recorded at 60 frames per second. This is my dilemma. Whereas, Premiere Elements 8 Properties and the Elements Organizer tell me that the Canon video is 1280 x 720 60 frames per second, both the Premiere Elements 8 Properties and the Elements Organizer tell me that the video that you sent is 1280 x 720, but 29.297 frames per second not the 59.94 (60) frames per second that you tell me should exist.
I have looked into the online details of how these cameras are capturing and recording images, but have not put the puzzle together as of yet. The Canon sensor is the CMOS type which appears to be an interlaced type, capturing fields per second. However, in the case its AVCHD Lite recording, the frame rate for it is 60 progressive frames per second. I am assuming that the Canon sensor captures using 60 fields per second, followed by a duplicating process involving interlaced fields, but I do not know that for sure at this time. On the other hand, the Panasonic has a CCD type sensor outputting at 30 frames per second (presumed 30 progressive frames) and recording as 60 frames per second in what is described in online articles as a duplicating process resulting in 60 frames per second.
By the way, I think that I have a better handle on your mention of a Patch for Premiere Elements 7. A further look into that suggests that you were referring to project presets that could be added to the project preset list (new project dialog)…first cited by Adobe for Canon 24p, 25p, and 30p video and Premiere Pro. I have used them (as is) with Premiere Elements and that was the basis for a thread here “1080p versus 1080i” originated by SiriNeosBoss.
Your “patch” description threw me off.
I started doing some tests, exporting the videos from Premiere Elements 8 and will report back on that and other matters soon if you want me to continue. Please update me on your workflow decision.
The frame rate in the organizer is 59.94. The frame rate in premiere elements is 29.97. I believe this occurs because the only preset available is HDV at 30FPS. The properties in premiere shows up as an mpeg movie. With the Sony Vegas software the frame rate is 59.94. Sony does not downgrade the refresh rate from 59,94 to 29.97. It maintains the refresh rate. As you know 30fps refresh rate is very low and can cause flicker. I was in the computer business for 35 years and built color monitors for computer terminals and pcs. A minimum acceptable refresh rate for monitors was 45 -60fps. If you didn't meet those requirements you couldn't sell the product!!
Another important question is what is refresh rate when exporting to a dvd or a hard drive.
Thanks again for your help. .
It is late where I am so I will just leave you this quick message.
Your video that I downloaded from this thread gives me 29.97 frames per second in the Photoshop Elements Organizer, the Elements Organizer, and Premiere Elements Properties. So, I do not understand how you are getting 59.94 frames per second (the expected frame rate) in your Organizer.
In what Organizer do you see the frame rate of 59.97 for your video...Photoshop Elements 8 Organizer, Premiere Elements 8 Organizer, Elements Organizer?
I will try to look into this further.
I saw the 59.94fps in the Photshop Elements 8 Organizer. I viewed the clip in the Photoshop Elements organizer and then clicked on the Fix, Edit Videos. This brought up the Premiere Elements screen. I then clicked on the Edit, Show Properties in Premiere which brought to the select file menu. I then selected the clip of interest and got properties of the clip which showed the frame rate of 29.97.
Based on your latest information, I went back to recheck the frame rate information that is coming out of Photoshop Elements and Premiere Elements.
Very strange. If I try to bring your file (1280 x 720 59.94 (60) frames per second .m2ts into the Photoshop Elements 7 Organizer, it will not import as .m2ts or .mts, but will if I change the file extension to .mpg. However, then the Properties information for the .mpg there does not give the frame rate. And, once that file gets to Premiere Elements Properties, it shows a frame rate = 29.97 frames per second.
However, if I try to bring your file (1280 x 720 59.94 (60) frames per second .m2ts into the Photoshop Elements 8 Organizer, it WILL import and show a frame rate of 59.94 frames per second. But, once that file gets to Premiere Elements 8 Properties, it show the frame rate = 29.97 frames per second. Further, if I open the Elements Organizer in Premiere Elements 8, I can see that the file has a frame rate there = 59.94 frames per second.
It has always been my belief that the Premiere Elements Properties reflect the metadata for the video and are not impacted by the Premiere Elements project preset (new project dialog) or the Edit Menu/Project Settings. So, I do not have an explanation at this time for what I am observing.
I have not been seeing this behavior when I use the Canon video which I believe also to be a variant of AVCHD Lite. I am going to go back and recheck that one more time and report on that later.
If these results remain the same number wise according to the read outs, it this acceptable to you even if you video audio is otherwise acceptable for viewing? If so, then we can talk export possibilities.
I have also posted these observation in your other post elsewhere.
Your results match up with my results on the organizer and premiere elements.
I have done some work on exporting. I exported to my hard drive a wmv file and a avi file. The clip was under 5 mb. The wmv file was set to 1280x720p and 60fps. The output file was 1mb. I couldn't determine what the output file characteristics were. I assuming that a wmv file which is used for emailing is low resolution given the small file size.
I also exported to the hard drive using avi. I configured it to 1280x720/60fps. The output file size was 1.4gb. At this rate I could eat up a liot hard drive space particularly with more practical video clip sizes. It would also take a lot of time rendering the file-probably hours!!
I tried to use the mpeg configuration but I couldn't configure it to 1280x720/60fps. The resolution was low and 29.94fps.
I would be interested in finding out how to export to my hard drive and subsequently burn a disk to be shown on my hdtv and still maintain an hd file.
Thanks for the input. I spoke to Adobe Tech Support on the phone toniight They told me to convert the files to mpeg using Koyotesoft.com. They also gave me a link to Adobe forum -.http://forums.adobe.com/thread/454585?tstart=0 which describes two methods for converting the files.
I have one question for you. In your book on Premiere Elements 8 you recommend burning a disk for a clip using software other that supplied with Premiere Elements. You recommend storing the edited clip on the pc and then burning a dvd from the stored clip on the pc. What software do you recommend using to burn the clip stored as a file on the pc? Can you use the disk burning software supplied with Windows XP?
I have not had a chance to get further into export of your Panasonic .m2ts, when I saw your post about news from Adobe about your question.
I have and use Koyote Soft and gave the video that you posted a try with it. I converted your AVCHD-Lite 1280 x 720 @ 59.94 frames per second (with .m2ts file extension) into MPEG-2 1280 x 720 @ 60 frames per second (with an .mpg file extension), using the Koyote Soft program. Unlike the .m2ts version, this MPEG-2 version did display 60 frames per second in both Photoshop Elements Organizer and Premiere Elements Properties.
What was Adobe's explanation and what is the benefit of going this route other than having some metadata agree with what would be expected? Was their recommendation to use Koyote Soft to convert to a product with 30 frames or 60 frames per second? I just did this quick look at this and did not have time for anything further on this matter. Do you want me to continue to follow this or are you all set?
Thanks for continuing to follow this issue. I spoke to a tech support person in New Delhi India. He was very helpful but put me on hold to talk to other people about the problem. Obviously, they are not very knowledgeable in India. What he did say was that if you try to edit a m2ts file in Pre 8 that you will have some sort of undefined problem. I kind of doubt that this is true. You might try to use the m2ts file directly in PRE 8, with the hdv preset,edit it , store it on the pc and see what happens. I would do this myself but I haven't learned how to edit yet. The tech support person recommended Koyate just as a converter. He said nothing about 30 or 60fps, On version 6 of Elements I had a technical problem which was answered on the phone by someone in the U.S. He was knowlegeable and could have answered the kind of question we have now with a little more detail.
The Indian tech support guy was very helpful and said that Adobe would fix such problems in a later release. I pointed out to him that a later release is a year away from now and this requirement to support AVCHD lite is not new and that support should have been included in PRE 8 since PRE 7 was not much different. I have had Elements version 4 through 8. There has never been a update or patch from Adobe for these products. So I am assuming that this problem will be supported in PRE 9 next year. Given the fact that Sony Vegas Platinum 9 supports avchd lite it is a mystery to me as why Adobe doesn't.
As far as continuing to look into this issue it would be helpful.
Thanks for the input. I spoke to Adobe Tech Support on the phone toniight They told me to convert the files to mpeg using Koyotesoft.com. They also gave me a link to Adobe forum -.http://forums.adobe.com/thread/454585?tstart=0 which describes two methods for converting the files.
I have one question for you. In your book on Premiere Elements 8 you recommend burning a disk for a clip using software other that supplied with Premiere Elements. You recommend stroring the edited clip on the pc and then burning a dvd from the stored clip on the pc. What software do you recommend using to burn the clip stored as a file on the pc? Can you use the disk burning software supplied with Windows XP?
I converted to mpeg and checked the properties in elements and premiere. They showed what you described -ie 1280x720p/60fps. I then tried to export to my pc. The best I could get was using hdv -1280x720p/30fps preset. So even though the conversion to mpeg provides a 60fps clip in premiere elements I lose the 60fps refresh. Premiere elements does not support using any export preset 60fps.
Adobe should provide an update on premiere elements 8 to support avchd lite as an iinput and 60fps with mpeg export. Adobe is not competitive with Sony Vegas Platinum 9 and other movie editing software. They missed the boat. I /we should not have to wait for version 9 next year to get this support.
Here is an input from elements village relative to Premiere Elements 7. It basically seems to eliminate the requirement. for conversion by using the Interpret footage mode. Link is http://www.elementsvillage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49331
Have you followed up on Paul_LS comments and applied them to your situation:
a. importing your 720p60 into Premiere Elements with NTSC HDV 720p30 project preset (which represents 1280 x 720, 16:9, 30 frames per second)
b. in Project View Media, right clicking the video, selecting Interpret Footage, and changing Frame Rate/Assume this Frame Rate (type in 29.97).
c. with that video on the Timeline, edit it
Share/Disc/Disc, if you want to export to get a DVD-VIDEO widescreen (720 x 480, 16:9, 30 frames per second)....the disc can be DVD standard 4.7 GB/120 min or DVD DL 8.5 GB/240 min.
Share/Personal Computer/MPEG, Windows Media, Quicktime, making whatever wanted adjustments that are available under the Advance button of the export. These adjustment include bitrate where you need to consider quality gains against file size increases. These exports can be burned to disc DVD standard, DL, Blu-Ray (whatever your players support for disc type and format on that disc), BUT you need a burn software other than that which is used within Premiere Elements. You can burn to BluRay disc (Share/Disc/BluRay) within Premiere Elements if you have a BluRay burner.
Summary on Disc Burning using the burn software within Premiere Elements (based on project preset 720p30)
DVD Disc (4.7 GB/120 min or 8.5 GB/240 min)
and PAL counterpart
a. H.264 1440 x 1080i NTSC Dolby
b. H.264 1920 x 1080i NTSC Dolby
c. MPEG 2 1440 x 1080i NTSC Dolby
d. MPEG 2 1920 x 1080i NTSC Dolby
and the PAL counterparts
Until proven otherwise, I do not believe this to be an issue related to the project preset set in the New Project dialog. I suspect that there are problems in the transfer of the video to computer to which Premiere Elements is sensitive. Are you using that Photofun software to save/copy the video to the computer hard drive? If so, can you transfer the video to the computer without the Photofun software?
Did I ask before, what happens if you render the timeline by pressing the Enter Key of the computer main keyboard? Also, are you judging quality of video and audio based on the end product rather than just a preview in Premiere Elements? If you have gone through all of the above, then I think it is time to look into converting the video to something else before bringing it into Premiere Elements. Have you looked into the free software MPEG Streamclip which I believe works for AVCHD 1080i and probably 720p as well (not sure).
Better yet, take a look at this FAQ on AVCHD Lite from the Premiere Elements User to User Forum at Adobe....
I hope that something in the above turns around your situation for the better. Please update me on your progress.
I will look for your next report. If you ever do not see a response from me within 24 hours of your post, please post asking what happened and/or send me a message through the web site's private message system.
I have not had time to do anything further since my last report that I converted your AVCHD-Lite to MPEG2 1280 x 720 60 frames per second with Koyote Soft and confirmed that the resulting .mpg did show the expected from rate of 60 frames per second for both Photoshop Elements 8 and Premiere Elements 8 in contrast to the non converted version which showed 59.94 frames per second in Photoshop Elements 8 Organizer and 29.97 frames per second in the Premiere Elements 8 Organizer.
If I recall, one of the first things that I looked at when I first received your video was Interpret Footage in Premiere Elements 8. You can indeed physically set the Frame Rate for 60 frames per second in the Interpret Footage dialog instead of what you find there (29.97) when you open the properties for the imported file. BUT, the playback of that video (now at 60 frames per second) does not play back well. In fact, the 29.97 frame rate version looks like the "normal" one...even with rendering the Timeline.
Over this coming weekend I will try to take another look at all this with regard to export of both your original and MPEG2 version from Premiere Elements and make sure that I confirm what I am seeing. Although PaulLS's suggestion for use of Interpret Footage in this type of situation is a logical one, it did not seem to work in this case.
To be continued.....
Have you had a chance to do any further investigation?
My reply comes 3 months later...but hopefully it is not too late. I created a preset-patch for Premiere Elements 8. Once it is installed, it adds editing-modes for progressive HD-video: 24p/25p/30p/50p/60p. That includes 720p50 (PAL) and 720p60 (NTSC.)
I superficially tested my custom 720p60 preset with Premiere Elements 8 Trial Edition (Windows), and some raw test-clips (*.MTS) downloaded from the web. I had no problem importing Panasonic GH1 footage into a 720p60 timeline, then rendering out to WMV. Of course, this was hardly a thorough-test ... it was a single 45 second clip with no edits (fades/color-correction/etc.) At least, though, it confirmed the underlying PE8 engine understood and properly interprets the 59.94fps timebase. (I did similar superficial testing for the custom 1080p24 and 1080p30 presets. Those were successful as well.)
(Also of note, I imported some AVCHD-lite clipsfrom my Panasonic ZS3 (720p60.) I was confused at first, because PE8 reported the clip's frame-rate as 29.97fps (instead of my expectation, 59.94fps.) But I did more reading on the subject, and concluded PE8 is correctly reporting the frame-rate. Even though AVCHD-lite stores clips in a 60p bitstream, it also sets the 'frame-doubling' indicator (that is a H264 syntax flag.) PE8 correctly takes into account the effect of the frame-doubling flag. Most other tools (including Windows 7's file browser) don't parse the frame-doubling flag, so they report AVCHD-lite as 60fps, which is technically true but misleading.)
Anyway, here's a link to the preset-patch discussion-thread: http://forums.adobe.com/thread/605768?tstart=0
In view of what I wrote back in December 2009 (post #11 of this thread),
"The Canon sensor is the CMOS type which appears to be an interlaced type, capturing fields per second. However, in the case its AVCHD Lite recording, the frame rate for it is 60 progressive frames per second. I am assuming that the Canon sensor captures using 60 fields per second, followed by a duplicating process involving interlaced fields, but I do not know that for sure at this time. On the other hand, the Panasonic has a CCD type sensor outputting at 30 frames per second (presumed 30 progressive frames) and recording as 60 frames per second in what is described in online articles as a duplicating process resulting in 60 frames per second"
Your comment caught my attention:
"......I imported some AVCHD-lite clipsfrom my Panasonic ZS3 (720p60.) I was confused at first, because PE8 reported the clip's frame-rate as 29.97fps (instead of my expectation, 59.94fps.) But I did more reading on the subject, and concluded PE8 is correctly reporting the frame-rate. Even though AVCHD-lite stores clips in a 60p bitstream, it also sets the 'frame-doubling' indicator (that is a H264 syntax flag.) PE8 correctly takes into account the effect of the frame-doubling flag. Most other tools (including Windows 7's file browser) don't parse the frame-doubling flag, so they report AVCHD-lite as 60fps, which is technically true but misleading."
In all your studies that you have presented for consideration today here and elsewhere, you focus on the import of progressive video into Premiere Elements for editing. That is only part of the equation. I would be interested to learn how you exported the video that you put on the Premiere Elements 8.0.1 Timeline... beyond "exported as wmv". And, I would be even more interested in your observations on the quality of the export with and without the use of your project presets.
A.T. Romano, you are absolutely correct. Creating progressive-presets is a minimum for importing and editing progressive-footage, but it is by no means everything, and actually doesn't help for all cases.
I communicated poorly when I said "exported as WMV." Here's what I actually did:
(0) Created a new project using "720p60" (actual 59.94fps) preset,
add the GH1 test-video (720p60) to timeline.
(1) Click SHARE
(2) Select "Personal Computer" (Export files for viewing on computers)
(3) Select "Windows Media" (Use for email and playback on Windows PC)
(4) change presets to "HD 720p 30"
(this is not quite what I want, so I customize it)
(5) Click Advanced
Change codec to 'Windows Media Video 9 Advanced Profile'
Change frame rate to 'Same as Source'
Increase the video bitrate (peak & average) to maximum (10.0 Mbps)
(6) save my custom profile,
(7) Click on the "Save" button (this starts the encoding process)
After that finishes, I have a *.wmv file that I can play in Windows Media Player. So basically, I didn't do any real editing -- I just loaded a single clip and wanted to test whether PE8 would render it properly (i.e. keep the 60fps motion.) The WMV-file degraded the color-quality noticeably (for example, color-banding in blue sky... this was not in the source footage.)
Regarding 1080i30 vs 1080p30, I found that Windows Media Player software (or rather, the PC's video-card) automatically performs hardware deinterlacing when playing interlaced-videos. So from a user-standpoint, there was little visual difference between a projects edited using a 1080i30 preset vs 1080p30 preset. (I used 1080p30 source-footage from my Canon HG20 -- the HG20 stores 30p in an interlaced bitstream. But PE8 had no problem reading and rendering it properly.)
And well I hate to sound like a broken record, but 1080p24 preset was a completely different story. My HG20 records 24p footage in an interlaced bitstream using a very strange pulldown-pattern. The raw HG20 24p footage looks absolutely terrible in a 1080p24 timeline. (I also tried some Panasonic GH1 AVCHD 1080p24 footage, it looks subjectively better, but in my opinion was still unusable.)
In the preset readme, I should have added this recommendation: if you have one of the 'non-native 24p' camcorders (most of the models on the market), you should stick to using the interlaced presets. Even though it is sub-optimal, the video renders better than using a true 1080p24 editing-mode.
I tried the avchd patch. I Unzipped the download. I pasted the setting file into Program Files Adobe Premiere Elements. I did not get any message that said I couldn't paste the settings file nor anything about merge. I found the settings file and opened it. It showed to files- Ntsc and Pal. I then opened Premeiere Elements with a new project. The presets were still the same. I did not find any preset for avchd 720p. Should I have found the avchd 720p preset? if not what preset should I use?
Ephraim, that's strange.
If the presets are installed (and working), then you should definitely see 720p60 in the NTSC->AVCHD category:
If you look inside your folder "Program Files/Adobe Premiere Elements 8/settings/", it should contain a folder called "SequencePresets"
If you look inside the presets zipfile, the subfolder "settings/" will have the same structure (i.e. subfolders) as the settings/ folder in your PE8 installation. Unfortunately, it's easy to accidentally unzip the presets to the wrong directory -- if that happens then the presets won't show up in PE8.
Here's what my Adobe Premiere 8 installation-dir looks like:
The blue-highlighted files are the custom-presets installed by the zipfile.
If you're having trouble getting the presets to unzip to the right folder, then you can just copy the individual sqpreset file ("HD 720p 60.sqpreset") to settings/SequencePresets/NTSC/AVCHD
I appreciated the follow up. But I think that you acknowledged the point that I was circling around, namely
"but it is by no means everything, and actually doesn't help for all cases". An example of the latter is the popular choice 1080i vs 1080p.
Could the detailed example in your last post be another one of "actually doesn't help for all cases"....Panasonic GH1 720p60 video/Premiere Elements 8.0.1 with your 720p60 project preset/export WMV as 720p60?
I could not find a Panasonic GH1 720p60 sample online, but I did find a Panasonic GH1 720p50 I picked for this look at related to this discussion.
1. Premiere Elements 8.0.1/Project Preset New Project Dialog = NTSC HDV HDV 720p 30 (came with program)
2. Premiere Elements 8.0.1 workspace/Edit Menu/Preferences/General with "Default Scale to Frame Size" checked
3. Imported 720p50 (.mts) from hard drive save location via Get Media/Files and Folders and dragged the video to the Timeline.
4. The 720p50 video had the appropriate Edit Mode Monitor Template for editing (1280 x 720) and played back well there (video and audio).
5. A check of Interpret Footage suggested that the program had interpreted the Frame Rate at 50 frames per second. And the pixel aspect ratio = 1.00 square pixels which would be expected.
6. Share/Personal Computer/Windows Media with the preset NTSC 720p30 offered the same opportunities for adjustment that you said that you used in performing this task with your 720p60 project preset.
7. The end product 720p50 was good.
So, if I had had a 720p60 video to edit in Premiere Elements 8.0.1, what would I have gained in using your 720p60 project preset instead of the 720p30 one that came with the program? Did I miss something?
You do acknowledge that 1080p24 is another matter. I have not tried that so I cannot speak to that at this time. Would it be fair to say that 1080p24 was what you targeted in your work and all the rest are nice to have but not necessarily going to give you different end results whether you use your project presets or Adobe's?
My comments are meant so that I can understand better from your responses. Yours was not an easy task. It is just that I am concerned about a non Advanced user thinking that they absolutely need these project presets to get Premiere Elements 8.0.1 to work (edit/export) with their 1080p or 720p videos at various frame rates.
A.T. Romano, I just tried the experiment you wrote, and you are correct! For some reason, I got the idea that the timebase was the master frame-rate for all footage in the project (i.e. all footage was 'rate-converted' to the timebase-rate.) But I see now that my previous assumption was wrong -- learn something new every day!
Well, that being the case, I guess the remaining benefit of editng a project with a correct timebase, is that your edits are frame-accurate. For example, if you needed to edit 720p60 footage with single-frame precision, then a 30p timebase wouldn't be accurate enough.
Also, my GH1 test-video (720p60 AVCHD) came from here: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicdmcgh1/page19.asp
I was able to implement the patch into premiere elements 8 and when I opened pe8 I found the new presets for avchd 720p.
According to one of your posts the underlying pe8 software recognizes the new presets. How does it handle it any differently than hdv720p preset? If you were able to produce this patch in the three months since the issue first came up why couldn't Adobe do the same? This is not a fair question to ask you but the sense of the question is where was Adobe when the issue came up and why didn't they support avchd lite on this new version when their competitor Sony supports avchd lite. After all avchd lite although relatively new was implemented in Jan 2009 or earlier.
Implementation for a recording scheme, or CODEC, takes some time. As has been pointed out in this thread, many things have to be taken into account, or something will not work correctly. Deciding on which schemes will be supported is one of marketing and sales. A corporation, like Adobe has to look into a "crystal ball," and try to decide if their install-base, or potential install-base, will be large enough for a new scheme, to support the time to code and implement a particular scheme. That can be a tough call. Just trying to make the decision to work on a scheme takes some time, as ROI needs to be considered.
Some companies, like Sony, have both a hardware and a software development department. If the "camera guys" come up with a new CODEC, or a major variation on one, they run down the hall to share the specs with the software group. It's then relatively easy to code in support. Also, the camera folk can give their projections on sales of the new camera, to support the cost of development of support in the NLE program.
A company, like Adobe, must wait until the new camera comes out, reverse-engineer the CODEC/scheme (they usually do not get a white-paper from the camera mfgr., especially if that mfgr. also makes a competitive software, so they are starting at zero. They also do not get the projected sales figures, and have to guess how many units this will cover. It is not quite as easy, as it sounds.
The same thing happens with still camera RAW schemes. It takes Adobe a while to get the new cameras and their proprietary schemes into ARC.
In video, it would be so easy if all camera mfgrs. just stuck with tape and either miniDV SD, or HDV. Problem solved. Instead, each mfgr. loves to take CODEC's (either older ones, or brand new ones) and tweak the heck out of them, coming up with a whole new scheme. The playing field changes about every quarter.
I would anticipate that PrE 9 will have expanded support for more CODEC's. However, in that time, camera mfgrs. will have some new ones. It is a never-ending circle.
One thing that would help would be the implementation of the Desktop Preset, like in PrPro, where one can customize almost all attributes of the footage. However, there are fewer CODEC's available for editing in PrPro, than in PrE to begin with, so Desktop is not the ultimate answer - one still must edit with the CODEC. Also, PrE is a US$150 program, while PrPro is a US$900 program. There should be some differences.
Just some thoughts,
Thanks for your reply. Having worked in the computer business for 35 years and having managed software group as large as 200 I can appreciate what it takes to put in product features,adding more complexity to the software and testing the software for bugs to insure quality. What I don't understand in this case is why a non-Adobe person was able to add the avchd lite etc presets and why Adobe which I believe reads the forum didn't do it themselves. Could it be that they want to sell version 9 with the feature and get more revenue?
In my experience competing with IBM where my company designed and manufactured an IBM clone computer terminal we also had to have competitive features. When IBM added new features to their terminals we responded immediately. It is difficult-but necessary in this competitive world.
I have still one open question regarding this patch. What does the software do differently in handling avchd lite 720p vs. using the hdv 720p preset?
Thank for your continued responses.
Before I get into some comments about your new project presets for Premiere Elements 8.0.1, I wanted to ask if you were aware of the work of “Adenosine” who made a similar offering to the Premiere Elements community last year for Premiere Elements 7. Adenosine’s offerings of downloadable project presets for Premiere Elements 7 included:
1080p24, 1080p30, 720p60, 1080p60
Special 720p30, 720p24
First, thanks for the link to a source for a 720p60 file for testing. Much appreciated. We will give that specific file a workout since we can make direct comparisons.
I will do some testing with it. But these are further comments on what I wrote previously as well as on your responding comments.
“For some reason, I got the idea that the timebase was the master frame-rate for all footage in the project (i.e. all footage was 'rate-converted' to the timebase-rate.) But I see now that my previous assumption was wrong -- learn something new every day!
Well, that being the case, I guess the remaining benefit of editng a project with a correct timebase, is that your edits are frame-accurate. For example, if you needed to edit 720p60 footage with single-frame precision, then a 30p timebase wouldn't be accurate enough.”
I wanted to detail that point that you made to which I have applied bold text. When I took my 720p50 video into Premiere Elements 8.0.1 with Adobe’s NTSC HDV HDV 720p30 project preset, the 1280 x 720 editing template in the Edit Mode Monitor was a correct one (in this case, whether or not I had checked or unchecked Default Scale to Frame Size in Edit Menu/Preferences/General). And, when I looked at the Interpret Footage frames per second for this 720p50 video, a frame rate of 50 frames per second was found in Interpret Footage suggesting that the program had interpreted the footage as 50 frames per second, not 30 frames per second. HOWEVER, if I looked at the expanded Timeline and actually counted the number of frames per second or if I calculated the frames per second based on duration of the video and total frames in the Render dialog, there were 30 frames per second counted on the Timeline, not 50 frames per second, with the use of this 720p30 project preset project. Nonetheless, no problems were encountered editng the video on the Timeline.
So if I had used a 720p50 project preset my earlier example, I should have expected to count actually 50 frames per second on the Timeline. Great you say for 720p50 edits with single frame precision, but how many among us really needs single frame precision in most cases. In what I have done (see 1080i/1080p as well as 720p details) I have not seen noticeable differences in the end product with vs without additional project presets.
The issue of what is really happening on the Fields level is complicated, especially when you get into 24p matters, be it 480p24, or higher.
The standard-presets were limiited to 25fps and 30fps timebases. Those users who wanted to perform frame-accurate editing @ 24p/50p/60p couldn't with the standard editing presets. This preset-patch (hopefully) gives that ability. Whether they need it or not, is another story. It sounds like you are much more knowledgeable than me in the area of Premeire Elements and NLE -- you have many hours of experience working with video production, whereas I have very little. So perhaps in your wider experience, you already know the # of situations requiring frame-level accuracy are very, very limited. In which case, most casual users don't need to bother with adding the custom-presets, they can contune to use PE as they always have.
As for not seeing an appreciable difference projects edited in 30i vs 30p mode, I agree with your assessment. In my simplistic testing, as long as the source-footage and output-formats agree (i.e. interlaced -> interlaced, or progressive -> progressive), the rendered output was correct. (And as you pointed out, the project-timebase doesn't make a difference: 24 vs 25 vs 30 ... ) I'm wondering what PE8 does diffferently in progressive vs interlaced-mode. Does it affect how plugins operate on the video, or how certain built-in effects are rendered?
Also, I hope I don't sound overly defensive in my responses. Each post I read teaches me something new. (I'm still looking for the 'intrepret footage' feature in PE8 trial-edition -- can't seem to find it, haha!)
And yes, actually I posted the PE7 preset-patch. Then I forgot my account-info, so I created a new account. (I used to always use my personal email address for webforum-registration, but I had a bad, bad experience a few years back. The server host was compromised by a email-address harvesting virus, and from that point on, I got tons of spam daily. Also, I felt guilty about leaving 1080p50 out of PE7...)
Thank you again for the follow up discussion and sharing your work for both Premiere Elements 7 and 8.
You asked about Interpret Footage in Premiere Elements 8.0/8.0.1....when you bring media into the program with its Get Media/Files and Folders, you will be in the Organize (Blue Tab activated) interface. Then, if you click on the Project Tab in the row below that Organize Tab, you will see the Project Media view. And, when you right click your video file there, you will get a drop down list of choices which includes Interpret Footage.
I will reserved any additional comments for another time.
I have finally gotten back to using Premiere Elements 8. My question has to do with using the new presets. In previous posts we discovered that FZ35 avchd lite 720p clips show a rate of 59.97 fps when imported into elements organizer. When it gets to premiere 8 it shows a rate of 29.97 in the interpet footage view. From what I understand if I use the custom presets I should edit using 29.97fps and output using the same fps. I am assuming that the use of 59.97 fps should not be used. Please comment.
I have meant to respond sooner but got hung up on troubleshooting some of my own Photoshop Elements and Premiere Elements programs.
There is a lot of details and speculation that I could go into but, the bottom line is,,,,,,,,,,
if you decide to use the new project preset 720p60 of jkent62, when you get to a Share/Personal Computer/export (maybe MPEG), I would use the 59.94 frames per second if that is the frame rate for what you recorded and imported into Premiere Elements. The motion of the video should be as recorded. As proof of that, do another export using the frame rate of 29.97 frames per second, instead of 59.94, and prove it for yourself.
jkent62 created the supplemental project presets reportedly to give the user a better editing template from which to edit in cases where a particular project preset was not part of the Adobe package. I wish to confine my statements to your specific video, Premiere Elements 8, and the 720p60 project preset of jkent62 and not generalize.
I have observed that whether or not you use 720p30 (Adobe) or 720p60 (jkent62), in Premiere Elements 8, you will see a frame rate of 29.97 in the Project Media View Properties or in Interpret Footage when these properties are opened and looked at. The template for editing 1280 x 720 is the same in that Edit Mode Monitor for 720p30 and 720p60. The difference is, if you look closely at the Timeline, there are 30 frames per second there when the project preset = 720p30 and 60 frames per second when the project preset = 720p60 and NOT 30 frames per second as would be suggested in the Project Media View parameters. Further if you render the Timeline and look at the total number of frames being rendered, that confirms 30 frames per second on the Timeline using project preset 720p30 for your recorded 720p60 and 60 frames per second on the Timeline using your project preset 720p60 for your recorded 720p60. Especially for 1080i and 1080p, I question whether you or the general user needs single frame editing of the Timeline. Although previewing the motion of the video (30 vs 60 frames per second) in the editing process is a consideration, I wonder if that really impacts the end product for you or the general user.
I will not attempt to speculate on why Project Media View parameters in your case are reflecting 30 frames per second instead of 60. I have not found that the case for comparible video from other cameras. I am tempted to think that Premiere Elements may be confused by your camera's metadata handling of the captured video and converting it to 60 frames per second based some doubling schemes.
The real bottom line is, no matter what guidelines you are given, try it and prove it to yourself.