12 Replies Latest reply on Dec 14, 2009 11:41 PM by Mylenium

    Passing files PS to AE Yikes what happened

    HarryPutnam Level 1

      I've been working on an DV clip, rotoscoping out  some footage, then saved from AE as the default lossless avi.  Then imported into PS for more touchup, using the eraser on each frame.

       

      I've been able to save the clip as a psd place marker that AE imports as video.  No problems till now.

       

      This time when I save it back to a psd file that AE can import, when I do so, the result appears to be two videos playing at the same time but from different positions geometrically, and time wise, so what I see is a the video jumping up and down like a mexican jumping bean.  And of coures its useless like that.

       

      When I play the file on PS timeline it plays like a regular piece of video.

       

      Far as I know I've done nothing different with this file than others in the series, but obviously I have. since the others didn't jump up and down wildly

       

      In case this is not something readily recognizable by experienced people, I'll captured and posted some of the wild girations, but while I work on that if anyone has an idea please let me know..

       

      .

        • 1. Re: Passing files PS to AE Yikes what happened
          HarryPutnam Level 1

          HarryPutnam wrote:

           

          I've been working on an DV clip, rotoscoping out  some footage, then saved from AE as the default lossless avi.  Then imported into PS for more touchup, using the eraser on each frame.

           

          I've been able to save the clip as a psd place marker that AE imports as video.  No problems till now.

           

          This time when I save it back to a psd file that AE can import, when I do so, the result appears to be two videos playing at the same time but from different positions geometrically, and time wise, so what I see is a the video jumping up and down like a mexican jumping bean.  And of coures its useless like that.

           

          When I play the file on PS timeline it plays like a regular piece of video.

           

          Far as I know I've done nothing different with this file than others in the series, but obviously I have. since the others didn't jump up and down wildly

           

          In case this is not something readily recognizable by experienced people, I'll captured and posted some of the wild girations, but while I work on that if anyone has an idea please let me know..

           

          .

          I prepared two screen captures in video, of the behaviour I see:.

           

          Here is what I see in PS CS4

          Here is what I see in AE CS4 when the place holder file is imported

          • 2. Re: Passing files PS to AE Yikes what happened
            Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

            Funky. Here's what I suspect: On some frame you have perfectly removed all outside pixels, in the others there are still a few ones left, even if they only have like 0.1% opacity. This may confuse AE. I'd simply render the clip from PS (File --> Export --> render Video) instead of using the PSD version...

             

            Mylenium

            • 3. Re: Passing files PS to AE Yikes what happened
              HarryPutnam Level 1

              Mylenium wrote:

               

              Funky. Here's what I suspect: On some frame you have perfectly removed all outside pixels, in the others there are still a few ones left, even if they only have like 0.1% opacity. This may confuse AE. I'd simply render the clip from PS (File --> Export --> render Video) instead of using the PSD version...

               

              Mylenium

              Thanks.

              Haa... I didn't know about PS export functions.  Its my first time messing with video in PS.  this could be a real life saver, in this case but for one thing.   The renedered export really sucks in terms of quality.  Its lost a good 30% of its clarity.

               

              I don't really see any other options than those under `Quicktime export'.  Where I'm shoosing AVI and `best' settings.

               

              The result is pretty bad.  Under even the first level of zoom .. its much worse than what is going into PS.

               

              Its only SD DV video to start, so a loss of this scale is pretty bad.

               

              Its SD DVvideo that has been imported into AE, masked and worked on, exported as  AE default lossless.  Imported into PS and now exported from PS using File/export.

               

              Using the other method of saving as PSD that AE can import as movie doesn't appear to cause any noticable loss.  And until this clip it seemed to work with no problems, However, Exporting from PS as video appears to cause major loss of quality.

               

              Maybe I should be using different export settings  ... as Sequence perhaps.  I don't have any experience with that kind of export.  Or how I'd go about getting it back into AE for further work.

               

              Do you think there is any way from this point, to get this piece of video saved in PSD placeholder that AE will import without all the jumping around?

              • 4. Re: Passing files PS to AE Yikes what happened
                Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

                Check your footage interpretation! Sounds like you exported with field on from AE, but forgot to enable it when you re-imported the result. PS doesn't know about fields, so ideally even in AE any clip being sent to PS would have fileds turned off to see the maximum available pixel data and retain consistent field order.

                 

                Mylenium

                • 5. Re: Passing files PS to AE Yikes what happened
                  HarryPutnam Level 1

                  Mylenium wrote:

                   

                  Check your footage interpretation! Sounds like you exported with field on from AE, but forgot to enable it when you re-imported the result. PS doesn't know about fields, so ideally even in AE any clip being sent to PS would have fileds turned off to see the maximum available pixel data and retain consistent field order.

                   

                  Mylenium

                  OK, I'm getting confused here due to a very skimpy knowledge of what I'm doing.

                   

                  How I got started using the PS psd placeholder method was from a rotoscoping tutorial  on line HERE

                  There is no mention whatever about the fields being off or on.  The only thing I really took away from that tutorial was that I could mess with video footage inside PS with access to the eraser/clone/paint etc etc.  In fact it closes by saying you can pass files back and forth by using the lossless default setting in AE ... and the PSD format in PS, no mention whatever of fields.

                   

                  You are saying when I originally imported the clip from the bunch of DV clips captured from camera,  into AE,  I should have turned fields off?  When I look at interpretation I see it is set to on with lower field first.And that is how I exported it...or rather I didn't do any thing to turn it off.

                   

                  Importing it back from PS It also shows lower field first and if I turn it on/off upper/lower  appears not to make any difference... still jumps wildly.

                   

                  So I guess you are saying, it MUST be turned off on the first import into AE right?.  And if that isn't done its likely to cause what I'm seeing?

                   


                  • 6. Re: Passing files PS to AE Yikes what happened
                    HarryPutnam Level 1

                    Mylenium wrote:

                     

                    Check your footage interpretation! Sounds like you exported with field on from AE, but forgot to enable it when you re-imported the result. PS doesn't know about fields, so ideally even in AE any clip being sent to PS would have fileds turned off to see the maximum available pixel data and retain consistent field order.

                     

                    Mylenium

                    Sorry to bug you so much... but a little more on this.

                     

                    I've been saying I imported to AE direct from a captured clip but that wasn't really the sequence of events. 

                     

                    I really first edited this clip in premier.  Cut it down to the part I wanted and exported as MS avi uncompressed.

                    Again, I suspect the field setting was on and lower first.  Now wondering if I should be using different settings from premier too.

                     

                    For example, for uncompressed MS avi the field choices are `upper', `lower' and `progressive'.  There is no OFF.   So should that be set to progressive?

                     

                    (The final target here is a web presentation in flash (f4v))

                     

                    The work flow would look like - Cut down to size and export from premier - import into AE and mask out as much background as I can - Export from AE for import into PS if it appears there is touchup that needs doing.  -  Pass back and forth as needed - final assembly and other elements then introduced in AE for final export as flash

                     

                    So how to handle the `fields' setting thru all that?

                    • 7. Re: Passing files PS to AE Yikes what happened
                      HarryPutnam Level 1

                      Mylenium wrote:

                       

                      Check your footage interpretation! Sounds like you exported with field on from AE, but forgot to enable it when you re-imported the result. PS doesn't know about fields, so ideally even in AE any clip being sent to PS would have fileds turned off to see the maximum available pixel data and retain consistent field order.

                       

                      Mylenium

                      I must be miss understanding here... If I have an NTSC DV clip and import it into AE, then turn off fields with interpretation dialog.  The video instantly looks really terrible,  The difference in clarity between having lower field first, as against `off' is very large  So large that its pretty much a non-starter.

                      • 8. Re: Passing files PS to AE Yikes what happened
                        Andrew Yoole MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                        Image quality during preview should look worse with field interpretation ON (lower or upper).  AE's preview only looks at one field while interpretation is on, but will render both fields appropriately during renders.

                         

                        So you should see notably sharper previews with field interpretation OFF.  Is that the case?

                        • 9. Re: Passing files PS to AE Yikes what happened
                          HarryPutnam Level 1

                          Andrew Yoole wrote:

                           

                          Image quality during preview should look worse with field interpretation ON (lower or upper).  AE's preview only looks at one field while interpretation is on, but will render both fields appropriately during renders.

                           

                          So you should see notably sharper previews with field interpretation OFF.  Is that the case?

                          No exactly the reverse.  Assuming I'm looking at what you are speaking of.  I have a mini DV ntsc clip imported into AE.

                          If I go to `interpret footage'/main/Fields and Pulldown/Seperate Fields/   I see `lower first'

                           

                          If I change that to OFF.  The clarity lessens quite noticably.  I mean instantly when turned to off it becomes something like 30-50 percent worse.

                           

                          In the accompanying screen shots.. The Project monitor is at 400 % zoom

                           

                          First with lower field first set

                          LowerFieldFirst.png

                           

                          Now Fields turned off:

                           

                           

                          FieldsOff.png

                          • 10. Re: Passing files PS to AE Yikes what happened
                            Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

                            If I change that to OFF.  The clarity lessens quite noticably.  I mean instantly when turned to off it becomes something like 30-50 percent worse.

                             

                            I think we have different definitions of good and worse. Actually you get 50% pixels more and you get the correct temporal representation of where those pixels would be "inbetween" frames. It's actually what people consider the "proper" way of working with interlaced footage when rotoscoping - you leave field interpretation off and work in comps that have double the source framerate in order to see each field in correct temporal relation. So for NTSC you would put your 29.97fps footage in a 59.94fps comp. Then you would either work directly with fields off or in two passes: do the primary roto with field interpretation set to the primary dominance field (lower in your case), then when done, reverse the field interpretation to see the fields that are half way between the others to add refinements. The point of the exercise: You would want to get maximum control to avoid nasty surprises with motion blur or things you just didn't see. For final rendering, you would then again simply nest your 59.94fps comp into a 29.97fps comp, revert to the original lower field interpretation and enable field rendering with lower fields in teh render settings.

                             

                            Mylenium

                            • 11. Re: Passing files PS to AE Yikes what happened
                              HarryPutnam Level 1

                              Mylenium wrote:

                               

                              If I change that to OFF.  The clarity lessens quite noticably.  I mean instantly when turned to off it becomes something like 30-50 percent worse.

                               

                              I think we have different definitions of good and worse. Actually you get 50% pixels more and you get the correct temporal representation of where those pixels would be "inbetween" frames. It's actually what people consider the "proper" way of working with interlaced footage when rotoscoping - you leave field interpretation off and work in comps that have double the source framerate in order to see each field in correct temporal relation. So for NTSC you would put your 29.97fps footage in a 59.94fps comp. Then you would either work directly with fields off or in two passes: do the primary roto with field interpretation set to the primary dominance field (lower in your case), then when done, reverse the field interpretation to see the fields that are half way between the others to add refinements. The point of the exercise: You would want to get maximum control to avoid nasty surprises with motion blur or things you just didn't see. For final rendering, you would then again simply nest your 59.94fps comp into a 29.97fps comp, revert to the original lower field interpretation and enable field rendering with lower fields in teh render settings.

                               

                              Mylenium

                              Egad, this sounds way more complicated than I had thought... the tutorials on line don't mention any of this.  At least not the ones I saw or the ones referrenced in the AE help file as resources.    Well I didn't really watch every one all the way through so maybe they do and I missed it.

                               

                              Much more to think about here.

                               

                              Is it possible to change a comp from 29.97 to 59.94 (without ill effects) after work has already progesses half way or more?

                              • 12. Re: Passing files PS to AE Yikes what happened
                                Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

                                Is it possible to change a comp from 29.97 to 59.94 (without ill effects) after work has already progesses half way or more?

                                 

                                AE works based on real time units, not absolute frame count, so there is no harm in switching frame rates after the fact. 1 second is a second, no matter whether it's sliced up into 30 frames or 60, if you understand.

                                 

                                Mylenium