39 Replies Latest reply on Dec 20, 2009 7:37 PM by the_wine_snob

    Avatar trailer and CS5

    medeamajic Level 2

      I seen the promotional material for Avatar. I see Adobe has anounced the next version of Premiere will be 64 bit and include the Mercury Playback Engine (WOW). Is this a hint that CS5 will be ready for NAB 2010?

       

      Will Adobe Systems Inc, the Red Digital Cinema Camera Company and Nvidia be putting on one hell of a presentation at NAB 2010?

        • 1. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
          Chuck A. McIntyre Level 3

          Interesting video interview with James Cameron:

           

          http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/industry/4339455.html?page=1

           

          Looking forward to seeing the movie.

          • 2. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
            JBrown321 Level 1

            I am looking forward to the film as well. Very encouraging and exciting to see all the Adobe software including Premiere being used on the Avatar film process. If you guys haven't already seen the clip check out http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/production/ and click the see how it was made clip and select the one in the middle. Very very cool!

            • 3. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
              Doughboy12 Level 1

              I along with many others were fortunate enough to see 35 minutes (various clips) of Avatar at Autodesk University 2009 the first week of December. As I said to my wife, it was "THE MOST VISUALLY STUNNING THING I HAVE EVER SEEN PERIOD." (We did see it in full dolby and 3D with the glasses and all)

              • 4. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                Chuck A. McIntyre Level 3

                Here is an interesting email interview with James Cameron:

                 

                http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117983864.html?categoryid=1009&cs=1

                 

                I remember a while back in the forum, someone was asking about 24P, getting a good "film look" and minimizing the "strobe" appearance. Cameron feels that the value of a high frame rate is too often overlooked.

                • 5. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                  medeamajic Level 2

                  I hope we get more info about PP CS5 and AE CS5. Some info has leaked but not much. It would be nice to see more talk about Adobe being used for Avatar. I hope Adobe can start making a list of feature films that used Adobe products during the production. A list of post production houses would be nice as well. I think PP CS5 is going to give FCP an upper cut and a black eye.

                  • 6. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                    tclark513 Level 3

                    medeamajic wrote:

                     

                    I hope we get more info about PP CS5 and AE CS5. Some info has leaked but not much. It would be nice to see more talk about Adobe being used for Avatar. I hope Adobe can start making a list of feature films that used Adobe products during the production. A list of post production houses would be nice as well. I think PP CS5 is going to give FCP an upper cut and a black eye.

                     

                    Which info are you referring to as being "leaked"?

                    • 7. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                      joshtownsend Level 2

                      Also Adobe made it clear they were not commiting to Mercury acceleration being in CS5...yet.

                       

                      About the avatar video....I'm wondering how the hell they got After Effects keying and putting in a CGI character IN REAL TIME while SHOOTING???? How is that even possible? I love AE but it's not real-time at all.......

                      • 8. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                        Doughboy12 Level 1
                        About the avatar video....I'm wondering how the hell they got After Effects keying and putting in a CGI character IN REAL TIME while SHOOTING???? How is that even possible? I love AE but it's not real-time at all.......

                        Whoever said they did that? Did I miss something?

                        I know the "environments" were real time but not the CGI characters?

                        • 9. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                          joshtownsend Level 2

                          It's there...when they talk about AE. There shooting a scene in the hospital like Avatar room.

                           

                          They pull a key, have a blue CGI guy in the shot that and then mention how Cameron 'needing to see the actors in real time, while shooting' so they used AE??!!!! It's a handheld shot and the CGI blue would have to have been motion tracked in the shot they show. It's too low resolution to see how the project was set up. It almost looks like they render something in a half second.

                           

                          I'm thinking it's gotta be fluff. Maybe they have hardware converting the to SD on the fly so they can key it in after the take is done(still don't see how they can do 3d track that fast).

                           

                          I think there just exagerating when they say real time and pull and Michael-Moore-edit so it looks like there shooting live with AE.

                          • 10. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                            Doughboy12 Level 1

                            I don't know the reference you are talking about so I can’t say for sure but the "finished rendered" characters are NOT in the real-time shooting, as far as I know. That is what the post production guys do. Put up a link please?

                            • 11. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                              joshtownsend Level 2

                              I understand that man. The CGI character would be for on-set reference, like they did in LOTR with Gollum.

                               

                              I'm talking about the 'making of' clip that's linked to the Adobe main page. The link from the third post. http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/production/

                               

                              They talk about using PS, Ppro, InDesign, AE ect and how they used it for AVATAR. You can't link to the video direct because it's flash embeded on the production suite page. You click on it and the trailer pops up then the next vid is the making of.

                              • 12. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                the_wine_snob Level 9
                                It's a handheld shot and the CGI blue would have to have been motion tracked in the shot they show. It's too low resolution to see how the project was set up. It almost looks like they render something in a half second.

                                 

                                Josh,

                                 

                                Maybe we got a bit of CGI in the trailer, about working with CGI? Who knows where the "special effects" end?

                                 

                                Nice to see you back around,

                                 

                                Hunt

                                • 13. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                  Doughboy12 Level 1

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  OK, I watched it now. Actually I watched that part about 10 times to understand what was going on and compared it to what he said.

                                  It appears to me that he is talking about "real time" and what he means is not as it is shot but instantly after. If you look at it closely, you see what they are doing is composting the two shots. Thanks for the link. It took my browser about 20 seconds to start the vid...kept waiting for something to happen, that is why i never watched it the first time. Oh, and the fact that I met him and listened to him talk for about an hour. Not that I remember 1/4 of what he said. Too amped for what he was about to show us. Later.

                                  • 14. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                    joshtownsend Level 2

                                    Sup hunt,

                                     

                                    I'm always lurking.... But latley I've been learning NUKE and falling in love..... Be back around more when CS5 comes out.

                                    • 15. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                      Doughboy12 Level 1

                                      Bottom Line...see it in 3D or better yet see it in IMAX 3D if you can.

                                      • 16. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                        medeamajic Level 2

                                        I am wondering if AE CS5 is going to be 100% realtime. Maybe the folks working on Avatar had a beta version of CS5 during production. Who knows for sure what realy happened on the set?

                                         

                                        I think more news about CS5 and the MBE will be here soon (6-7 weeks).

                                        • 17. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                          tclark513 Level 3

                                          medeamajic wrote:

                                           

                                          I am wondering if AE CS5 is going to be 100% realtime. Maybe the folks working on Avatar had a beta version of CS5 during production. Who knows for sure what realy happened on the set?

                                           

                                          I think more news about CS5 and the MBE will be here soon (6-7 weeks).

                                          Don't count on it.

                                          • 19. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                            Chuck A. McIntyre Level 3

                                            This new technology is truly amazing.  From Audodesk's site:

                                             

                                            Reference:

                                            http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?id=14270942&siteID=123112

                                             

                                            "James Cameron and his production company, Lightstorm Entertainment, pioneered a new method for making visual effects movies with advanced virtual cinematography techniques. Using Autodesk® MotionBuilder® and Autodesk® Maya® software, the team created a virtual stage or “volume” in which they could capture actors’ performances and apply them directly to computer graphics (CG) characters, while viewing the results in real-time. This unique soundstage gave Cameron the ability to direct a high quality CG performance as if it were live action."

                                             

                                            Here is a link to a very interesting PDF:

                                            http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/the_new_art_of_virtual_moviemaking_-_autodesk_whitep aper.pdf

                                             

                                            Imagine the possibility of creating new films starring legendary actors and actress. All star casts including John Wayne, Katharine Hepburn, Rock Hudson, Cary Grant, James Dean, Elvis Presley, Marilyn Monroe, Tyrone Power, Errol Flynn etc...

                                            • 20. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                              joshtownsend Level 2

                                              That makes more sense. That means they were using AE to do quick composite's after the shot is done. Great stuff but not 'real-time'.

                                               

                                              Thanks for the link Charles that is brilliant stuff. Glad Autodesk is finally getting there act together. Cheap SMOKE for mac, MAYA 2010 shipping with TOXIK (high end compositor) and MATCHMOVE (3d tracking) and AVID MEDIA COMPOSER finally solid. I can see why Adobe doesn't give a flip about becoming a player in feature film editing/comping.

                                              • 21. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                                fuaho Level 1

                                                While it may be Autodesk software and not AE, the mere fact that the setup:

                                                 

                                                " ...translates actors’ movements into digital characters in real time within a low-resolution computer-generated environment. So riding a fake banshee mockup onstage instantly translated to CG footage."

                                                 

                                                And:

                                                 

                                                "Cameron could watch from the sidelines as his actors’ performances were instantly mapped to their CG characters and displayed via an on-set screen."

                                                 

                                                The real whiz-bang of this is exactly that you don't have to record the point-cloud and then apply it to the CG later just to see what you've got. The throughtput is fast enough to create real-time control of the CG, albeit lo-rez, so the director knows what the final Hi-rez performance will extrapolate to and how it is working in the scene.

                                                 

                                                Coupled with the motion-capture camera, the face-capture point-cloud and the motion-capture point-cloud in hi-rez in post, this entire process is AWESOME!!!

                                                 

                                                From Monster House (2006) to Beowulf (2007) to Avatar (2009)!!!  

                                                • 22. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                                  medeamajic Level 2

                                                  Adobe should try to buy Carrara from Daz. A 3-D animation program is the only thing missing from Adobe. If Adobe had their own 3-D program I am sure it could be designed to work in realtime with AE CS5.

                                                  • 23. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                                    joshtownsend Level 2

                                                    Realtime 3d models are and have been realtime for over a decade.

                                                     

                                                    In video games. Think about it.

                                                     

                                                    Hell...new games even have real time ambiant occulsion.

                                                     

                                                    What's really cool is the realtime multipoint tracking of 120 cameras then recreating the camera in 3d space realtime. Really cool stuff. What gets me excited is this "Or he could use a portable, motion-tracking virtual camera to walk through the volume and view the CG environment of the movie on its LCD screen"

                                                    • 24. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                                      the_wine_snob Level 9
                                                      A 3-D animation program is the only thing missing from Adobe.

                                                       

                                                      3D has been growing in Photoshop-Extended for some time now. It is still rudimentary, compared to most 3D programs, and models still have to be Imported, but work is being done in that direction. Maybe CS5 will be PS-Extended 3D?

                                                       

                                                      Now, Corel did buy a much lower-level 3D company (Cool 3D?), so maybe they'll work 3D into Painter?

                                                       

                                                      Hunt

                                                      • 25. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                                        joshtownsend Level 2

                                                        Cinema 4d has the most streamlined integration with AE. If Adobe were gonna buy a 3d program to integrate that would be the one. They work perfect together. Problem with commercial 3d work is they are dependant on multi-pass exr-typ files and AE is soooo sloowww when dealing with them.

                                                         

                                                        Photoshop based 3d works but is stupid slow even with a super computer. Hell there's even a IK script for AE that lets you do rig animation in AE using photoshop 3d.  http://aeportal.blogspot.com/2009/12/duik-tools-tutorial-ik-script-for-after.html

                                                         

                                                        Too bad it's almost useless because....well...it's mind numbing slow when doing your 3d through photoshop.

                                                        • 26. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                                          medeamajic Level 2

                                                          I am sure the folks at Adobe are aware of what is needed to make Adobe compete on par with the competition. I imagine After Effects CS5 will be much more powerful than what we have now.

                                                          • 27. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                                            dradeke Adobe Employee

                                                            Actually, my coworker who was the VFX supervisor with James Cameron on Titanic (I've held his Oscar) said that you shouldn't see it in IMAX, but digital 3D...

                                                             

                                                            DoNotPushMe wrote:

                                                             

                                                            Bottom Line...see it in 3D or better yet see it in IMAX 3D if you can.

                                                            • 28. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                                              joshtownsend Level 2

                                                              Is that because of native aspect ratio or IMAX conversion? Cool stuff man.

                                                              • 29. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                                                Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional

                                                                I saw it in IMAX 3D yesterday.  It was an amazing cinematic spectacle. 

                                                                The story wasn't half-bad, either.

                                                                 

                                                                -Jeff

                                                                • 30. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                                                  Chuck A. McIntyre Level 3

                                                                  Jeff:

                                                                   

                                                                  There are four IMAX theaters in our general area. I 'm planning on taking my family to the one near Lake Lanier, up 85 off of 20. How was the crowd/wait situation? I'm sure the theater was packed.

                                                                   

                                                                  imax.jpg

                                                                  • 31. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                                                    Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional

                                                                    We went to the one in Buford.  It's at the Mall of Georgia.  We bought our tickets on Fandango, and we arrived about 50 minutes before showtime.  We were the fourth group in line for the 12:20 PM show on a Friday.  By 30 minutes before showtime, the line was back out to the theater entrance.  By showtime, there was a cheek in every seat.  Plan accordingly since this is the last weekend before Christmas.

                                                                     

                                                                    -Jeff

                                                                    • 32. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                                                      Curt Wrigley Level 4

                                                                      Check the theater first to see if it is a real IMAX theater before paying the IMAX price.  Theaters have been half scamming folk charging more for an "IMAX Experience" when it is not a real IMAX theater.

                                                                       

                                                                      Im anxious to see it; but Im gonna wait a week... I have a crowdaphobia thing.

                                                                      • 33. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                                                        shooternz Level 6

                                                                        Its difficult not to add with pride ....a shameless plug for the film industry achievements of my lil ole country...way down here in the SouthPacific

                                                                         

                                                                        Namely WETA Workshops

                                                                         

                                                                        http://www.wetanz.com/avatar-trailer-wow/

                                                                        • 34. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                                                          Chuck A. McIntyre Level 3

                                                                          shooternz:

                                                                           

                                                                          Have you toured the WETA facility? I noticed on their website that nearly every job they offer requires a PhD. Last I heard their render farm utilizes 30,000 processors. I'm sure the new Nvidia technologies will be a welcome addition. This morning, I showed my wife a couple of the TV commercials WETA has worked on. Take a look at the "Shark" and "Snowball". Very creative and funny:

                                                                           

                                                                          WETA Link

                                                                          • 35. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                                                            shooternz Level 6

                                                                            Hi Chuck

                                                                             

                                                                            No, I have not toured their facility.   I like to think of them as "my competition"

                                                                             

                                                                            (Thats a joke . ok.)

                                                                             

                                                                             

                                                                            • 36. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                                                              the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                                              Charles,

                                                                               

                                                                              30,000 processors! Isn't that one of Harm's older "cast-off" systems?

                                                                               

                                                                              Nice stuff and thanks,

                                                                               

                                                                              Hunt

                                                                              • 37. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                                                                Chuck A. McIntyre Level 3

                                                                                I took my wife and daughter to see Avatar at the IMAX in Buford Georgia. I took Jeff's advice and allowed an extra hour. Highway 20 was bumper to bumper beginning about 4 miles before the theater. Mostly people going Christmas shopping at the Mall of Georgia, I suppose.

                                                                                 

                                                                                The film is amazing. The 3d gives gives you a sense of being right there watching. This is the beginning of a whole new era in film making. Cameron suggested a sequel in one of the interviews and wants to film at a higher frame rate for the next one. In just a couple of places, I could see why. It was very minor though. Aside from a brief lapse into Hollywood style political drivel, I thoroughly enjoyed the film.

                                                                                • 38. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                                                                  D&R Films Level 1

                                                                                  Looks to be about 90% hollywood political drivel, but hey.. it's "fantasy" so I can give it a pass... heh.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I'm in Acworth GA, so I'll look for a theatre on this side of town. I lived in Lawrenceville a couple of years ago so I'm familiar with the Mall Of GA traffic.

                                                                                  • 39. Re: Avatar trailer and CS5
                                                                                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                                                    Sounds like it might be worth the effort to do the Imax version. Not sure of play dates out here in the desert. At least we do not have to worry too much about Winter storms!

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Thanks for the H/U.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I'm pretty well inoculated to "Hollywood drivel," so that should roll off my back... We get many of those folk here during the year, so I've heard most of that before, and just ignore it - "thank you Mr. Coppola, thank you Mr. Baldwin." That sort of thing.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Hunt