5 Replies Latest reply on Dec 15, 2009 3:37 PM by HarryPutnam

    Passing Files AE to PS - there must be more to the story

    HarryPutnam Level 1

      In a previous thead Mylenium wrote:

      Mylenium wrote:

       

      If I change that to OFF.  The clarity lessens quite noticably.  I mean instantly when turned to off it becomes something like 30-50 percent worse.

       

      I think we have different definitions of good and worse. Actually you get 50% pixels more and you get the correct temporal representation of where those pixels would be "inbetween" frames. It's actually what people consider the "proper" way of working with interlaced footage when rotoscoping - you leave field interpretation off and work in comps that have double the source framerate in order to see each field in correct temporal relation. So for NTSC you would put your 29.97fps footage in a 59.94fps comp. Then you would either work directly with fields off or in two passes: do the primary roto with field interpretation set to the primary dominance field (lower in your case), then when done, reverse the field interpretation to see the fields that are half way between the others to add refinements. The point of the exercise: You would want to get maximum control to avoid nasty surprises with motion blur or things you just didn't see. For final rendering, you would then again simply nest your 59.94fps comp into a 29.97fps comp, revert to the original lower field interpretation and enable field rendering with lower fields in teh render settings.

       

      Mylenium

       

      There must be more to the story... Following what I understand your suggestion above to be,  I tried a small sample of the file I've been working with.

      I put a 29.97 fs NTSC clip into a comp set at 59.94fs - Tiurned Field Selection from lower first to OFF and masked part of the background out for

      15 frames.

      Then in the same composition I created a new comp back at 29.97  and plopped the 59.94 comp in it and selected Comp/MakeMovie  to render a file I can edit in PS.

       

      After rendering Lossless AVI When I open the file in PS, I find the background is black instead of transparent, which of course means its useless for my purposes.

       

      So somewhere in there I've lost the ability to pass the file back and forth between AE and PS and do usefull work.

       

      Apparently I'm not understanding your suggestion or not following it the way you intended.

        • 1. Re: Passing Files AE to PS - there must be more to the story
          HarryPutnam Level 1

          HarryPutnam wrote:

           

          In a previous thead Mylenium wrote:

          Mylenium wrote:

           

          If I change that to OFF.  The clarity lessens quite noticably.  I mean instantly when turned to off it becomes something like 30-50 percent worse.

           

          I think we have different definitions of good and worse. Actually you get 50% pixels more and you get the correct temporal representation of where those pixels would be "inbetween" frames. It's actually what people consider the "proper" way of working with interlaced footage when rotoscoping - you leave field interpretation off and work in comps that have double the source framerate in order to see each field in correct temporal relation. So for NTSC you would put your 29.97fps footage in a 59.94fps comp. Then you would either work directly with fields off or in two passes: do the primary roto with field interpretation set to the primary dominance field (lower in your case), then when done, reverse the field interpretation to see the fields that are half way between the others to add refinements. The point of the exercise: You would want to get maximum control to avoid nasty surprises with motion blur or things you just didn't see. For final rendering, you would then again simply nest your 59.94fps comp into a 29.97fps comp, revert to the original lower field interpretation and enable field rendering with lower fields in teh render settings.

           

          Mylenium

           

          There must be more to the story... Following what I understand your suggestion above to be,  I tried a small sample of the file I've been working with.

          I put a 29.97 fs NTSC clip into a comp set at 59.94fs - Tiurned Field Selection from lower first to OFF and masked part of the background out for

          15 frames.

          Then in the same composition I created a new comp back at 29.97  and plopped the 59.94 comp in it and selected Comp/MakeMovie  to render a file I can edit in PS.

           

          After rendering Lossless AVI When I open the file in PS, I find the background is black instead of transparent, which of course means its useless for my purposes.

           

          So somewhere in there I've lost the ability to pass the file back and forth between AE and PS and do usefull work.

           

          Apparently I'm not understanding your suggestion or not following it the way you intended.

           

          I may have found my error... In colors setting, I had just RGB... change that to RGB + Alpha.  Also the Field Rendering I neglected.. So turn that back on to lower first.

           

          Now when I import the rendered file it has those horizontal thingies on each side that you see when fields are OFF.  So turning field rendering back on apparently didn't remove them.

          So far this is not working out for the betterment of the project...so still needing guidance here.

          • 2. Re: Passing Files AE to PS - there must be more to the story
            Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

            Harry, I really don't understand you. If you lose the transparency, then this would point to incorrect render settings or a layer being behind the transparent items. It is not related to any nesting you do nor the field order. I recomemnd you check the output module settings for whether they are properly set to RGB+Alpha and your CoDec is set to support alpha in the first place. also, to save disk space, consider using Quicktime with animation or PNG compression instead of AVIs.

             

            Mylenium

            • 3. Re: Passing Files AE to PS - there must be more to the story
              HarryPutnam Level 1

              Mylenium wrote:

               

              Harry, I really don't understand you. If you lose the transparency, then this would point to incorrect render settings or a layer being behind the transparent items. It is not related to any nesting you do nor the field order. I recomemnd you check the output module settings for whether they are properly set to RGB+Alpha and your CoDec is set to support alpha in the first place. also, to save disk space, consider using Quicktime with animation or PNG compression instead of AVIs.

               

              Mylenium

              Sorry if I sound like a blithering idiot, but that may not be far from the mark.  The transparancy was just my lack of setting RGB+Alpha as posted.

               

              Are you saying to export in Quicktime or PNG for further work in PS?.  I was under the impression it needed to be in lossless avi (the `make movie' default).

               

              Remember what the aim was.... to work masking/rotoscoping in AE and do further tourchup in PS, using file types that will work back and forth.

               

              Let me try this again.  This is how I understood your instructions

               

              1) import one clip of NTSC avi.  Captured from MINIdv camera

                   The clip is at 29.97 fs with fields set to lower first.

               

              2) As per your instructions I open a comp set to 59.94 fs and drop the clip into it.

               

              3) Interpret footage/main/ turn fields OFF

                  Note:  When fields are set to OFF  I see horizontal lines thru the video image as per my posted image in the other thread.

               

              4) Go thru with my masks... masking out the background (rotoscoping).  Theoretically I'm getting a chance to set my masks by both upper and lower  fields.  In other words very accurately

               

              5) Open a new comp set to 29.97fs with fields ON and set to lower first

               

              6) Export the clip with render settings at 29.97fs and with fields ON and set to lower first.  Lossless AVI

               

              Now comes the rub.

               

              6) Import that file into PS.   But whoops.   Those horizontal lines that were apparent when turning Fields OFF, are still there.

               

              And finally, if I forgo the rigamarole of putting 29.97fs into 59.94 fs and back again etc etc.

              And just work the masks with fields ON as they are already in the clip... Then export to the default lossless avi.... It can be opened in PS and look like notrmal video... further touch up etc.

               

              From this end it appears the sequence of work you suggest results in an un-usable piece of footage once it gets to PS.

              • 4. Re: Passing Files AE to PS - there must be more to the story
                TimeRemapper Level 4

                I know this will stray slightly off topic, but what is it that you're doing in Photoshop that you're having a hard time doing in After Effects?

                The clone tool in AE works very well! And, it's non-destructive to boot!

                • 5. Re: Passing Files AE to PS - there must be more to the story
                  HarryPutnam Level 1

                  TimeRemapper wrote:

                   

                  I know this will stray slightly off topic, but what is it that you're doing in Photoshop that you're having a hard time doing in After Effects?

                  The clone tool in AE works very well! And, it's non-destructive to boot!

                  A good bit more than slightly, since the whole subject is about passing files back and forth... and its been covered in earlier companion thread

                   

                  I'll stay with the current subject if you don't mind.