15 Replies Latest reply on Dec 22, 2009 8:36 AM by the_wine_snob

    Max Still Size (for Credits)

    Ed.Macke Level 3

      After struggling with scrolling text (for credits) on my last project, I remembered and found a thread where somebody (Hunt?) suggested using Photoshop to create an image of the credits, and scroll that image. Well, that worked incredibly well. Not only was it 10x easier, but it allowed me to do things you can't in the Titler (or at least not easily), e.g. warp the text to a curve, add still images that scroll with the text. Brilliant!!


      However, my question is this: I routinely see advice that PRE doesn't like still images larger than 1000 x 720 or so, but the "credits" tips says to create an image 720 x 4000 pixels.


      Can PRE safely handle images that big? I didn't have any problems, but maybe I was lucky. I hate pushing PRE to do things it doesn't want to, because that rarely ends well.

       

      Also, while my credits didn't exceed 4000 pixels, I could see that happening in future projects. What's the advice there? Should I make the image as large as necessary, or should I create a second image? I could see where making a seamless scrolling transition from image #1 to image #2 could be challenging???

        • 1. Re: Max Still Size (for Credits)
          Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

          Obviously, those 4000 pixels are to allow you to create a very long text roll.

           

          And,  yes, you probably can use a graphic that long in your project with very few problems. As long as you remember to render often as you work.

          • 2. Re: Max Still Size (for Credits)
            the_wine_snob Level 9

            Ed,

             

            Steve is correct. That tip was for very, very long credits. For normal screens of credits, I stick to the Frame Size of the Project. I also try to break my long credits into logical separate files, i.e. actors, crew, locations, etc. With Keyframing, I can then animate each one, so that they follow one, right after the other.

             

            In PS, I use the Presets for my Project, i.e. NTSC 720 x 480 PAR = 1.22 (for NTSC 16:9 Widescreen), or whatever you need. If you have an HD Project, choose that. I also use the Preset with the Guides, so I can see my Title Safe Area.

             

            Hope that helps, and sorry to confuse you on the very long credit titles. That 4000 pxl. dimension is the largest file dimension that PrPro (and PrE, I think) can handle. I like the multiple credit files, so I do not overly stress the program, or the system. Now, if you do not have logical breaks, and do have a lot of credits, I'd go with what is necessary, up to, but not exceeding that 4000 pxl. dimension.

             

            Good luck,

             

            Hunt

            • 3. Re: Max Still Size (for Credits)
              Ed.Macke Level 3
              As long as you remember to render often as you work.


              Gotcha. And save often, too  


              And what about if my credits were too long for 4000 pixels (I'm not sure how many lines of text that would hold)? Is there a theoretical or practical max? Could I go to 5000? 10,000? 20,000?


              I just picture trying to sync together 2 scrolling images as a bit challenging (placement, speed, etc... maybe I'm wrong) so my first option would be to just make the image "long" enough.

              • 4. Re: Max Still Size (for Credits)
                the_wine_snob Level 9
                Is there a theoretical or practical max? Could I go to 5000? 10,000? 20,000?

                 

                Yes, 4000 pixels in the largest dimension, at least for PrPro, and I assume similar with PrE. If your credits will not fit into 4000 pixels, you will be looking at splitting them into separate files.

                 

                For common reference, I use about 32 pt. type for credits in a bold, sans-serif font. I adjust my Leading, for readability.

                 

                Good luck,

                 

                Hunt

                • 5. Re: Max Still Size (for Credits)
                  Ed.Macke Level 3

                  Ack, you replied while I was replying to the reply! I hate when that happens!

                   

                  Hope that helps, and sorry to confuse you on the very long credit titles

                  Oh, on the contrary, no confusion at all, more just wondering how to extend it to longer credits - which I think we've answered! The original tip was very helpful - it's a really cool trick.

                   

                  With Keyframing, I can then animate each one, so that they follow one, right after the other.

                  OK, so how do you do this so that the end result is seamless? My only keyframing (IIRC) with a single image was adjusting the vertical position. I think my starting keyframe was position 0 and ending was -2000, or something like that. BTW, my results can be seen here... the credits are at the end, obviously, but the whole video's only 1 minute long.


                  The problems that I could foresee would be a) getting Image #2 positioned just so so that it started right where Image #1 ended, and b) ensuring that the scrolling speed of Image #2 matched Image #1 - do you just do the match of X number of pixels over Y number of seconds or something?

                  • 6. Re: Max Still Size (for Credits)
                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                    Assuming that you have text over black, or over Transparent (in Photoshop), you do the Keyframing exactly the same. I always adjust my Duration to suit, locate my first Keyframe at the beginning of the Title, and then place a Keyframe at the Frame (PageUp, then one click of left arrow cursor key). I then go back and get to my first Keyframe, where I use Effect>Motion>Position to put my credits just off screen at the bottom. Then, I go the final Keyframe and do the same, except off of the screen at the top. I do this for each of my credit Titles, and stack them one atop the other on separate Video Tracks. I stagger them and check their alignment. Let's say that we have three credit Title files: actors, crew and locations. I will work on actors first, then move the CTI back to before its last line has moved too far up the screen, and drag my crew Title to that point, so that it follows along. With the same Duration, the speed of the scroll is the same. I do not try for line accuracy, but go with spacing of about 4 line-breaks. When done, I move on to my locations Title and do the same thing.

                     

                    If there is a great disparity in the lines of text per credit Title, you'll probably want to alter the Duration to keep the speed close in your scrolls.

                     

                    BTW - how many lines of text do you have in your credits and are there any logical breaks, such as the actors, crew, location that I used as an example?

                     

                    Good luck,

                     

                    Hunt

                    • 7. Re: Max Still Size (for Credits)
                      Ed.Macke Level 3

                      Sounds like my workflow is almost identical, except that I figured out about how fast I wanted the credits to scroll, and then adjusted the duration until I got the speed I wanted.

                       

                      But I've done it the other way around, too, on previous videos.

                       

                      I will work on actors first, then move the CTI back to before its last line has moved too far up the screen, and drag my crew Title to that point,

                       

                      Ah! That's the trick. Seems obvious, now that you point it out!

                       

                      If there is a great disparity in the lines of text per credit Title, you'll probably want to alter the Duration to keep the speed close in your scrolls.

                      So would it be fair to say you're not real concerned with keeping the speed exactly the same, just basically the same?

                       

                      BTW - how many lines of text do you have in your credits and are there any logical breaks, such as the actors, crew, location that I used as an example?

                      Well, in the video I just did, I only had, what?, maybe 20 lines of credits that took 15 seconds? Very simple. The YouTube link is posted above - you can see exactly what I did FWIW.


                      But in one video I did a while ago, I had a PIP "outtakes" segment playing while the credits rolled by - it was pretty complex (at least for me). Those credits were pretty lengthy and involved - that's where I'm thinking this technique could really shine. Unfortunately, I don't have that video online.

                      • 8. Re: Max Still Size (for Credits)
                        the_wine_snob Level 9
                        So would it be fair to say you're not real concerned with keeping the speed exactly the same, just basically the same?

                         

                        So long as they appear to be moving at the same speed, I think the audience will be busy reading the credits, and not paying that much attention to a very slight differential in the speed.

                         

                        Now, with just one credit file, I would also do the Ease-Out/Ease-In for the two Keyframes. In the case of multiple files, I'd keep the Velocity linear, so there is no change between the credits coming on screen and leaving it.

                         

                        Just my thoughts,

                         

                        Hunt

                        • 9. Re: Max Still Size (for Credits)
                          Ed.Macke Level 3
                          I would also do the Ease-Out/Ease-In for the two Keyframes

                           

                          OK on everything so far, except that... what is "Ease-Out"?

                          • 10. Re: Max Still Size (for Credits)
                            the_wine_snob Level 9
                            what is "Ease-Out"?

                             

                            Well, when you're backing out of a parking spot in a busy mall, well that's an Ease-Out...

                             

                            With Keyframes, when you place them, their Velocity is linear. The motion starts at full speed, and ends at full speed. Many find this abrupt, so the Velocity Graph of the motion/Effect can be altered. Ease-Out (from first Keyframe) and Ease-In (into the next Keyframe) are basically Presets to alter that Velocity Graph, so that the motion/Effect begins slowly and builds up speed, and then slows down to the next Keyframe. This can be done with Constant Bezier. If you look closely at any of these, you'll see that they are just like the Paths created with Pen Tool, and it'll have little handles to control the curve.

                             

                            An analogy to understand the constant Velocity of a regular Keyframe and Ease-Out/Ease-in, think of a rocket sled, like the first astronauts trained on, and G-forces were studied. They ignite and in a few inches are going Mach 1. They also hit a water trough and stop almost instantly. Keyframes are even quicker than that. A jetliner starts slowly and builds up speed. When it lands, it hits the deck pretty fast, and then slows over a good distance. This is Ease-Out/Ease-In.

                             

                            With the credits example, we're starting with nothing showing on the screen, so we do not see the abrupt start, and we're finishing off-screen, so we do not see the abrupt stopping. This allows us to use a constant Velocity, so there is no issue trying to match our Velocity, or our speed. That can be adjusted by the Duration.

                             

                            In your Effect Keyframe mini-Timeline, if you Rt-click on any Keyframe, you can alter the Velocity Graph. PrPro actually has a Graph to view, and a few more options for adjusting Velocity. In PrE, I think you're limited to Ease-Out/Ease-In, Continuous Bezier, and maybe one more. I also do not know how much adjustment is available for the Velocity.

                             

                            Hope that that helps,

                             

                            Hunt

                            • 11. Re: Max Still Size (for Credits)
                              the_wine_snob Level 9

                              Ed,

                               

                              Here is a look at the PrPro Timeline with two long Titles, with the Program Monitor open, and the Effects Control Panel open, showing the Velocity Graph, plus the Velocity Controls for the Keyframes. I chose PrPro, rather than PrE, to show the full Velocity Graph, and to also show the Video Tracks closer together for this example. Most of the controls are the same in PrE, with some limitations on the Velocity Controls, and the look of the Effects Control Panel.

                               

                              Hope that this helps:

                               

                              Long_Titles.jpg

                               

                              Hunt

                              • 12. Re: Max Still Size (for Credits)
                                Ed.Macke Level 3

                                Ah, yes, a picture is worth 1,000 words! I see the overlap you were talking about, too.


                                It all makes sense now. I've used the bezier curves for volume and opacity fade-in's and out's, so I'm familiar with the concept.


                                I didn't know you could do that for the Velocity. Actually, I didn't know there was a Velocity!


                                Thanks, as always, to everybody for the explanation!

                                • 13. Re: Max Still Size (for Credits)
                                  the_wine_snob Level 9

                                  Glad that you got it.

                                   

                                  The Keyframes are a bit more easily seen and adjusted in PrPro (IMHO), and one does see the Velocity graph. It is borrowed from AfterEffects, but the one there is even more intricate, as AE is really an animation/compositing program. That is one of the reasons that I chose to show the screen-cap in PrPro, rather than PrE - there is a bit more to show, and I thought that it tied the concept up more neatly. The mechanics are really the same in each NLE, it's just easier to show some aspects in PrPro, like the two Video Tracks next to each other. In PrE, you would have the attached Audio Track in between. This does mean that there is a bit of "reading between the lines," but as things work the same way, it will not be difficult to translate between the two programs.

                                   

                                  Happy Editing and Happy Holidays!

                                   

                                  Hunt

                                  • 14. Re: Max Still Size (for Credits)
                                    Missteach Level 1

                                    Slightly off topic here but I'm winding up for Xmas after a busy year.  I've just finished a Xmas movie for a client (using PE4 and PPCS3)  and he wanted loads of rolling credits at the end to be fitted into a 15 second time frame - (his strange requirement).  It meant that the 50 odd lines of credits went by in a blur!!!    His response was 'nobody reads them' which begged the question why he wanted to include them.

                                    • 15. Re: Max Still Size (for Credits)
                                      the_wine_snob Level 9
                                      His response was 'nobody reads them' which begged the question why he wanted to include them.

                                       

                                      My guess would be that there were legal obligations involved. Maybe these were satisfied by being able to say, "hey, you DID get credit, like promised, but it did go by rather quickly... "

                                       

                                      I see this all too often with commercial films/videos. I like to read the credits, but find that I have to use the Pause button very often. Then, when it gets to the © screen, things slow to a crawl. Same with the screen with the Producers' credit - slow. I often want to see what software was used in the production, or who composed the music, or performed it. Those go by in a blur.

                                       

                                      I still like the old advice to give the audience enough time to read the Titles/credits 1.5x, but I've also been instructed to do, just as you outline.

                                       

                                      Hunt