24 Replies Latest reply on Oct 8, 2006 2:08 PM by tyree_2

    bones that stretch without programming

    tyree_2 Level 2
      www.bleed3d.com/bones%20grow.htm

      I have seen the question of whether or not bones can stretch asked and the reply has been no, an emphatic no. and quickly pointed out but it can be done thru programming. While I knew this not to be true I waited to see if anyone else was going to post something. showing that simply is not the case. I havent seen any such post. so here is something simple showing it
        • 1. Re: bones that stretch without programming
          duckets Level 1
          Eww... weird choice of model to demo your code with. Maybe this should come with a NSFW warning!
          • 2. Re: bones that stretch without programming
            tyree_2 Level 2
            duckets you must be some kind of conservative. To be more concerned about what you think it looks like. instead of noticing what it is actually doing those are exported bones stretching. there is no code making them stretch. that is straight from max. something that is not supposed to be possible to bring into a w3d.
            maybe you could be more concerned about the fact that whats percieved to be a limitation of what can be done in the 3d authoring environment and the w3d actually is not. Maybe thats of more importance than what it looks like
            • 3. bones that stretch without programming
              Necromanthus Level 2
              quote:

              Originally posted by: tyree_2
              duckets you must be some kind of conservative. To be more concerned about what you think it looks like. instead of noticing what it is actually doing those are exported bones stretching. there is no code making them stretch. that is straight from max. something that is not supposed to be possible to bring into a w3d.
              maybe you could be more concerned about the fact that whats percieved to be a limitation of what can be done in the 3d authoring environment and the w3d actually is not. Maybe thats of more importance than what it looks like


              tyree_2,

              First of all, in order to argue with Ben, you need to reach his level !
              Secondly, as general rule: you can scale the bones, but you can NOT animate the scaling
              And that's because this kind of animation is NOT exported (and not recognized by Director Shockwave anyway)
              Thirdly, your "example" is worthless because the entire bones chain is scaled.
              And finally, because it's obviously you need to learn, take a look at this short movie:

              http://www.geocities.com/necromanthus/scale_bone.html

              What's there ?
              A cylinder (3 segments, 16 polys per segment) and a chain of 4 bones (the last one is a "dummy").
              The second bone has a 3 frames animation (in the 2nd frame is scaled with 200%).
              Of course, for the cylinder is used the physique modifier and all of them are grouped before exporting.
              Result: NO animation in the exported W3D file !
              You may test it with any kind of 3D modeler (including 3DS Max 9 !).

              I hope it's clear enough now (for you at least).
              • 4. Re: bones that stretch without programming
                duckets Level 1
                Hehe, that's great tyree_2. I'm far from conservative, and I actually found it pretty funny, sorry if you couldn't tell that from my post. I noticed what your bones are doing, but it would be more interesting if you gave some details of how you're doing it, rather than just giving a link to a "growing bone" ;-)
                • 5. Re: bones that stretch without programming
                  Necromanthus Level 2
                  quote:

                  Originally posted by: duckets
                  I noticed what your bones are doing, but it would be more interesting if you gave some details of how you're doing it, rather than just giving a link to a "growing bone" ;-)


                  In fact he messed up the entire scene ...
                  Here is what he did (viewed from the right angle !):
                  http://www.geocities.com/necromanthus/tyree_2.html

                  His bones animation is reduced to a simple keyframe animation.
                  There're 2 dummies involved in this motion: the chain root node and the last chain bone (always treated as dummy).
                  That's all.

                  • 6. Re: bones that stretch without programming
                    tyree_2 Level 2
                    well necormanthus that ******** example isnt anything like mine. for one, with your smart *** there is no scaling going on. of any kind, the bone not the dummy is being transformed, not scaled, there is no scaling at all, anywhere. its because of the type of bones that they are. Their spline bones.and I know about the group thing. grouping then scaling. I dont use that type of ********. Im an animator. I animate clothes I animate lightning. I animate glass breaking I even take the volume smoke that I make put bones on that and animate that as a w3d. I animate all this as a w3d. things you never considered most likely have never seen from a w3d
                    and while skilled duckets may be he is a skilled programmer. Im a skilled artist skilled at being creative with a love for animation you obviously dont have necormanthus. An animator would let no perceived limitation stop him from animating what he wants to animate, the way he wants to animate it . And if I couldnt actually control the animation I wouldnt bother doing it. And that no animation that you say doesnt get exported is actually being paused on one frame told to play on another and reset on yet another in director. that no animation, that is, that doesnt exist or gets exported. with your smart ***. Maybe you should try spending some time pushing the software beyond its limitations. instead of telling me what the limitations are and to live within them. That is If your mentally capable of doing that. I have a degree in computer science and computer animation but Im an artist/animator, Im entirely too creative to be a programmer. I have been studying the different aspects of art my entire life. I think on a creative level you simply do not. You are not my creative equal. which is why I can take a set of bones and have them appear to be scaling when they are actually being transformed. Dont compare yourself to me. Dont try and correct me. Try and push yourself beyond what you perceive to be a limitation of what you can do, at this point. With your smart ***


                    and if anybody wants to know how I do anything just say so and I will tell them hopefully it will help push the medium along
                    • 7. Re: bones that stretch without programming
                      Necromanthus Level 2
                      quote:

                      Originally posted by: tyree_2
                      well necormanthus that ******** example isnt anything like mine.


                      In fact that ******** is your work. Here is the runtime version of your "buggy motion" exported from 3DS Max:
                      http://www.geocities.com/necromanthus/buggy_motion.html


                      Maybe you are a skilled artist.
                      Maybe you have a degree in computer science and computer animation.
                      But you're a BEGINNER in Director Shockwave, W3D exporter and runtime environments.
                      If you didn't understand anything from my previous posts, you can not pass the beginner level.
                      p.s.
                      Because I don't wanna waste space with another message, something related with another "amazing" topic of yours:
                      - havok based animation doesn't exist !
                      - Havok physics is another fish in another ocean.
                      - in that demo there're 25 PREDEFINED keyframe animations and one PREDEFINED bones animation (that girl).
                      Nice animations btw, but your demo has nothing to do with Havok !
                      Why ?
                      Just start learning and you'll find the answer.
                      cheers
                      • 8. Re: bones that stretch without programming
                        tyree_2 Level 2
                        I was refering to the cylinder I didnt see the other post you made and in reply to that. if I wanted it to be completely vertical straight up and down from every view I would just straighten out the bones, since I control the bones and the bones are tied to mesh but who would have thought of that. thats just crazy talk.

                        and the havok based animation is predefined but I didnt define it thats all havok animation using reactor from max. I didnt hand animate a single thing in there. I just adjusted the controls which in turn change how it animates. there are a lot of people that simply dont know that scene and specifically character animation that are made using reactor can be exported with a biped to w3d. Thats an alternative to the actual runtime havok that gives you a different result everytime it plays. instead of letting havok create the animation at runtime. a person could export the reactor/havok animations and play them whenever they wanted them to occur and have more control over them both before and after they export
                        • 9. Re: bones that stretch without programming
                          _lw Level 1
                          this discussion is somehow strange in a forum that is dealing more with techincal problem then "artistic" problem.

                          @tyree_2:
                          >something that is not supposed to be possible to bring into a w3d.
                          Bones can be exported, yes thats not a new feature, what are you talking about ? Who said that this stuff in not supposed to be possible? Where do you find this kind of wrong informations?

                          @ necromanthus:
                          >you can scale the bones, but you can NOT animate the scaling
                          hm, because i work with Cinema4D i never had any problems with it? Bones can be keyframeanimated with position, transform, scale.
                          here a quick test (sorry for the other crap in the scene...ah, and ESC brings the mouse back...)
                          http://kisd.de/~lutz/3dtest/test_01

                          Is this different from the max exporter?

                          @all:
                          what is the point of this discussion? Artist vs. Technocrats?

                          cheers!
                          • 10. Re: bones that stretch without programming
                            Necromanthus Level 2
                            quote:

                            Originally posted by: hondo3000

                            @ necromanthus: >you can scale the bones, but you can NOT animate the scaling
                            hm, because i work with Cinema4D i never had any problems with it? Bones can be keyframeanimated with position, transform, scale.


                            Hi Lutz,
                            In 3DSMax, MAYA, SoftImage and LightWave you can NOT animate the scaling.
                            In fact you can, but the motion is not exported.
                            Of course, there is a workaround for that: you can use aditional dummies and create a keyframe motion.

                            In my first message you can find the algorithm. Try it in Cinema 4D.
                            If that algorithm works in Cinema 4D, you should study the content of the exported W3D file.
                            I think you'll find few keyframe motions there.
                            In this case it means that Cinema 4D is doing the required extra job for you ...
                            cheers

                            • 11. Re: bones that stretch without programming
                              Level 7
                              Tell it how it is Necro!

                              ;)

                              Richard


                              • 12. Re: bones that stretch without programming
                                Necromanthus Level 2
                                quote:

                                Originally posted by: Richard
                                Tell it how it is Necro!


                                I can't stop thinking at those two lovely monkeys of yours.
                                I bet they're full of dummies and keyframe motions (especially the eyes & mouth areas)
                                ha ha ha
                                p.s.
                                Do you think I'm very interested in this subject ?
                                No, I'm not.
                                But I had many requests for a bones / bonesPlayer tutorial, and I don't know anything about Cinema 4D and few other apps able to export the W3D file.
                                That's all.
                                • 13. Re: bones that stretch without programming
                                  _lw Level 1
                                  >I think you'll find few keyframe motions there.
                                  >In this case it means that Cinema 4D is doing the required extra job for you ...

                                  hm, there is only one motion for the bonesplayer, not more. I am wondering why other apps do not export animated scaling of bones? But i think the big 3D software-houses lost their interest in the shockwave3D format. I hope the next Director release will bring some interest back.

                                  By the way, the viewport of the new Release of Cinema4D supports "enhanced openGL" features like normalmaps, realtimeshadows and so on... But the Mac version is not able to export shockwave3D files anymore because no universal binarie-sdk is available.

                                  cheers!

                                  • 14. Re: bones that stretch without programming
                                    Necromanthus Level 2
                                    quote:

                                    Originally posted by: hondo3000
                                    hm, there is only one motion for the bonesplayer, not more.

                                    Very strange. Did you follow that algorithm: a chain with 4 bones, no rotations, no translations, only SCALE for the 2nd bone ?

                                    quote:

                                    Originally posted by: hondo3000
                                    But i think the big 3D software-houses lost their interest in the shockwave3D format. I hope the next Director release will bring some interest back.

                                    At this moment there is a HUGE interest in Shockwave 3D.
                                    It's up to Adobe ...

                                    quote:

                                    Originally posted by: hondo3000
                                    the viewport of the new Release of Cinema4D supports "enhanced openGL" features like normalmaps, realtimeshadows and so on... But the Mac version is not able to export shockwave3D files anymore because no universal binarie-sdk is available.

                                    Thanks for all these infos.

                                    cheers


                                    • 15. Re: bones that stretch without programming
                                      duckets Level 1
                                      Tyree_2, your animating skills sound pretty impressive. Maybe the demo you posted of your big purple growing bone doesn't really show off your true talents. Got any other demos we can see?

                                      quote:

                                      "and while skilled duckets may be he is a skilled programmer. Im a skilled artist"


                                      Actually I've dabbled in a little 3d animating too! here:
                                      http://www.robotduck.com/models/?footballer
                                      http://www.robotduck.com/models/?golfer
                                      Modelled, textured, rigged and animated by my own fair hands. Not amazing I know - I'm sure you could show us something better!

                                      quote:

                                      "Im entirely too creative to be a programmer"

                                      LOL! That's pretty funny. And to me, it sounds similar to "I'm entirely too creative to be a novelist. That's why I'm a painter".

                                      quote:

                                      "and if anybody wants to know how I do anything just say so and I will tell them hopefully it will help push the medium along"


                                      Sure, I'd like to know. and actually I thought I asked already, when I said "it would be more interesting if you gave some details of how you're doing it".

                                      Let's all push the medium along together!

                                      - Ben


                                      • 16. bones that stretch without programming
                                        _lw Level 1
                                        @necromanthus:

                                        this time i am sure that i followed the instructions. no translation, no rotation only scaling.
                                        http://kisd.de/~lutz/3dtest/bone/
                                        if you want to see the w3d file:
                                        http://kisd.de/~lutz/3dtest/bone/bone.w3d

                                        But i have to say that bones animations are a foreign terrain for me, so i can't say if i did everything correct.

                                        @duckets:
                                        Nice animations! I am only able to animate simple things like maggots or worms that behave unnatural :)
                                        (never google for pictures of maggots!!!)

                                        cheers!
                                        • 17. Re: bones that stretch without programming
                                          Necromanthus Level 2
                                          quote:

                                          Originally posted by: hondo3000
                                          this time i am sure that i followed the instructions. no translation, no rotation only scaling.
                                          http://kisd.de/~lutz/3dtest/bone/
                                          if you want to see the w3d file:
                                          http://kisd.de/~lutz/3dtest/bone/bone.w3d

                                          But i have to say that bones animations are a foreign terrain for me, so i can't say if i did everything correct.


                                          If that's what you did what can I say ... send my best wishes to the MAXON staff.
                                          The 3DSMax W3D Exporter is known as the best W3D exporter.
                                          I'm not so sure anymore ...

                                          Thanks for your time.
                                          cheers

                                          • 18. Re: bones that stretch without programming
                                            _lw Level 1
                                            sorry for using this thread again for a question about the max w3d exporter.

                                            The Cinema4D w3d exporter is quite good, but has some bad things in it.
                                            1. The complete scene is scaled with vector (1,1,-1), this leads into problems
                                            when using modelsunderray (all normals are flipped) and some other stuff related to havok
                                            2. Exports for every Model a modelresource, this makes files bigger
                                            3. when sending the first ray into a scene, it needs some time to process something, i am not sure what it is, but if you have large polycount (100.000) it can take some seconds to minutes (depending on the number of polys). After this initial process rays work normal. Does this happen with models exported from max?
                                            4 not possible to Export different scaled texturelayers.
                                            5. If all possible Texturelayers are exported (there are seven channels), only four texturelayers will be exported. Three of them will be copied together into one texture. Not sure at the moment what exactly happens there...
                                            6. Seems to be impossible to export lights with a maximum distance. (i did't get it to work, the documentations say that it is possible...)
                                            7. not possible to fill informations into the "userdata" of models

                                            some of these things made me really think about swiching over to another software with better exporter :(

                                            >The 3DSMax W3D Exporter is known as the best W3D exporter.
                                            >I'm not so sure anymore ...

                                            Ok, scaling bones seem to work, lol! Never needed bones with animated scaling, but now i will do something with it :)
                                            think the 3dsmax exporter will stay the best one.

                                            The absolute big advantage about Cinema4D is the very easy to use/learn interface, the renderer and the fantastic options to bake textures.

                                            I know the 3DsMax exporter is very good, but does it have some problems too?

                                            cheers!
                                            • 19. Re: bones that stretch without programming
                                              Level 7
                                              duckets wrote:

                                              > Actually I've dabbled in a little 3d animating too! here:
                                              > http://www.robotduck.com/models/?footballer
                                              > http://www.robotduck.com/models/?golfer

                                              Hi Ben,

                                              Looks good. But, found a bug. If you click the 'Textures' tab, then click back to
                                              'Viiewer', then back to 'Textures', you get an error message:
                                              Property not found
                                              #spritenum

                                              Happens on both footballer and golfer. I did get that error another way, clicking
                                              other buttons but always appears when foing to teh Textures tab.

                                              regards
                                              Dean

                                              Director Lecturer / Consultant
                                              http://www.fbe.unsw.edu.au/learning/director
                                              http://www.multimediacreative.com.au


                                              • 20. bones that stretch without programming
                                                tyree_2 Level 2
                                                hello duckets or ben Im not sure but. my intention for posting that. the bones scaling was to show that it could be done. not to for the sake of impressing anyone. also because I have seen the question asked by someone that was new to both director and 3d software how do they get thier character to stretch in the w3d. when they have it stretching in the max viewport but it doesnt show up once they export it. And the answer is always it cant be done. dont waste your time. Just crushing thier creative hopes. When in fact they could. Its involves a process to get it done but everything in 3d is a process. They could export to fbx filmbox, import it. the biped will be changed to bones. within 3d max you can change from one bone type to the other. change the bone type of whatever it is your trying to stretch to a bone type that does stretch or simulate stretching in the w3d. If they are having trouble getting this process to work. building a skeleton is also an option using the different bone types to get the effect there looking. There is also the keyframe method. which involves duplicating the body part that is stretched out turning it into its own object. exporting the character and the out stretched body part. Now in director use lingo within the frames, framescript to hide and show the different objects and give the impression of animation hide, play, pause and show are simple one line commands that someone new to director would not have a problem understanding.

                                                yes I have some simple things that I wouldnt mine showing you, keep in mind these are just that simple but the more impressive things I wont be showing just yet. I dont put those up until Im ready to show them all at one time

                                                a very simple test scene, note the camera work, does not use any video textures standard textures meant to look like a game
                                                http://www.bleed3d.com/tree%20path%206.htm


                                                short character animation
                                                http://www.bleed3d.com/statuesque%20flip%20bak.htm
                                                http://www.bleed3d.com/statuesque%20lift.htm

                                                this is the simplest but this one has the most uses. if you think about what it could be applied to, hair, rope, vines whatever you want it to be. that follows this basic shape
                                                http://www.bleed3d.com/spline%20lightning%202.htm

                                                this doesnt involve any actual motion but, you might find this interesting
                                                two examples of an effect
                                                http://www.bleed3d.com/crystal%20ball%202.htm
                                                http://www.bleed3d.com/crystal%20ball.htm


                                                and a not about the havok scene, that took 20 minutes to setup animate and export, you might want to consider looking into the reactor havok and its uses. you really can create many a different scenes, moods and character dramatics using it. and just let reactor do a bulk of the work for you

                                                to get the stretch effect in max thier are several different bone types they cover limb movement wich is like a hinge up and down back and fourth side to side. the other is spline which is for curves and stretches. use the spline. visually the two bone types look exactly the same. but the way they function of course isnt. keep in mind you can attach as many vertices to a bone as you choose. Or you can attach a single vertex to a bone and you will get a different effect. your not limited in the control you have over the mesh and how it moves. the number of bones you use will change how something moves. You actually dont have to put the bones inside the mesh at all. The bones will still control it but the way the mesh moves will be different as opposed to putting bones inside the mesh. changing the strenght value for whatever skin type you choose. should give you more control over the skin if the bone isnt inside the mesh. Your really not limited by having to do it a certain way. Its up to you
                                                • 21. bones that stretch without programming
                                                  Necromanthus Level 2
                                                  quote:

                                                  Originally posted by: tyree_2
                                                  Its involves a process to get it done but everything in 3d is a process. They could export to fbx filmbox, import it. the biped will be changed to bones. within 3d max you can change from one bone type to the other. change the bone type of whatever it is your trying to stretch to a bone type that does stretch or simulate stretching in the w3d. If they are having trouble getting this process to work. building a skeleton is also an option using the different bone types to get the effect there looking. There is also the keyframe method. which involves duplicating the body part that is stretched out turning it into its own object. exporting the character and the out stretched body part. Now in director use lingo within the frames, framescript to hide and show the different object and give the impression of animation hide, play, pause and show are simple one line commands that someone new to director would not have a problem understanding.


                                                  Instead of wasting your time with all these stupidities, just attach a dummy (or more) to your biped and STRETCH anything you like.
                                                  You're stubborn and you don't give up. This might be good for your future career (if any ...).
                                                  But please, stop spreading stupidities and "amazing workarounds" !
                                                  cheers
                                                  • 22. Re: bones that stretch without programming
                                                    Level 7
                                                    necromanthus wrote:

                                                    > You're stubborn and you don't give up.

                                                    Hi Remus,

                                                    The same could be said about you ;)

                                                    Anyway, be kind :). Sometimes workarounds do actually have value. And if someone
                                                    wants to experiment with different approaches, what's wrong with that. And if that
                                                    person wants to share those experiments in a forum, well that's fine too. This is
                                                    the place to discuss anything whether it be good, bad or ugly .

                                                    Hope all is going well with your Director endevours.

                                                    regards
                                                    Dean

                                                    Director Lecturer / Consultant
                                                    http://www.fbe.unsw.edu.au/learning/director
                                                    http://www.multimediacreative.com.au



                                                    • 23. Re: bones that stretch without programming
                                                      Necromanthus Level 2
                                                      quote:

                                                      Originally posted by: Dean U
                                                      necromanthus wrote:
                                                      The same could be said about you

                                                      I don't give up, but I'm NOT stubborn.
                                                      I'm open to any VALUABLE new information.
                                                      -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                                      quote:

                                                      Originally posted by: Dean U
                                                      Anyway, be kind :). Sometimes workarounds do actually have value. And if someone
                                                      wants to experiment with different approaches, what's wrong with that. And if that
                                                      person wants to share those experiments in a forum, well that's fine too. This is
                                                      the place to discuss anything whether it be good, bad or ugly .

                                                      Hope all is going well with your Director endevours.

                                                      Dean,
                                                      I don't wanna talk about biped constraints and the ability to load/save BIP files (you lose them all if you follow his "workaround").
                                                      What's really stupid: just try to stretch a bone inside of your body and tell me the result.
                                                      LOL
                                                      Director Shockwave community needs VALUABLE support, not stupidities and worthless "workarounds".
                                                      But you already know all of these ...

                                                      keep up the great work there.
                                                      cheers

                                                      • 24. Re: bones that stretch without programming
                                                        tyree_2 Level 2
                                                        the reason someone would have for going thru all those steps is because they dont know, they dont know if it will work, they dont know what they will learn along the way, but they are sure to learn something, simply by going thru the process. since max made the biped standard. a large number of people dont use the bones at all. or pay attention to them and thier uses. doing something like this might cause an interest where there otherwise wouldnt be one. if you need something to move besides a character a biped is a hard fit. doing something like this could cause a person to stumble into knowledge, or realize something they didnt and lead to the best idea they ever had. Who knows, but what is known, is that, you cant create something different by doing the same thing everyone else is doing. Random creation, requires random exploration. You cant constantly come up with something different if your not constantly experimenting. Take those two brothers that made the matrix films, films had been around long before they started making them and techniques were already in place. Speilberg didnt need any camera tricks neither did lucas and they were both extremely successful. So why even bother doing it, do it because it is different. and you dont know. You dont know what will come from it. While In the process of making something. Doing it in a way that is not different. will likely cause you to end up with something that is just that. Not different the same as everything else thats out there
                                                        If your in the business of creating original content, how original can you be. If your willing to put a cap on the process you use to create original content

                                                        and if the biped is animated before you change it to bones, you dont lose any of that animation its all still there. you dont need the constraints just animate the stretching