19 Replies Latest reply on Jan 25, 2010 12:05 PM by Rob_Minter

    DNG Converter 5.6 and Canon S90 RAW Images

    Rob_Minter

      This has been an ongoing query with the Adobe Customer Support Centre since November 12 last year. Refer case no #0181279281. Although the documentation that accompanies DNG 5.6 states that the Canon S90 is a supported camera, the converted images come out far too saturated and are not usable. Has anyone been able to rectify this problem? I use Photoshop CS3.

        • 1. Re: DNG Converter 5.6 and Canon S90 RAW Images
          MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

          Can you provide an example raw file that has this problem? I can take a look. If so, please post it to YouSendIt.com and then paste the link in this forum (or if you do not wish to share the raw file publicly, email to me at madmanchan2000@yahoo.com).

           

          Eric

          • 2. Re: DNG Converter 5.6 and Canon S90 RAW Images
            Rob_Minter Level 1

            Hi Eric,

             

            Thanks. The link to the file is http://www.yousendit.com/download/S1VCeVd0UnFTRTdIRGc9PQ

             

            Earlier, I had posted examples of the RAW and the DNG files here: http://dobbino.blogspot.com/2009/11/dng-converter-canon-s90-raw-files.html

             

            Cheers for now,

            Rob.

            • 3. Re: DNG Converter 5.6 and Canon S90 RAW Images
              Level 4

              Rob_Minter wrote:

               

              Thanks. The link to the file is http://www.yousendit.com/download/S1VCeVd0UnFTRTdIRGc9PQ

              Cheers for now,

              Rob.

               

              Rob,

               

              The image is substantially underexposed.  Correcting the Exposure in ACR by +1.45 and selecting the Camera Faithful ACR profile for the conversion (rather than Adobe Standard), a substantial difference in apparent saturation is immediately noticeable.

               

              Gladiola_CR2.jpg

               

              Is that closer to your expectations?

              • 4. Re: DNG Converter 5.6 and Canon S90 RAW Images
                Level 4

                Tai Lao wrote:

                 

                Rob,

                 

                The image is substantially underexposed.  Correcting the Exposure in ACR by +1.45 and selecting the Camera Faithful ACR profile for the conversion (rather than Adobe Standard), a substantial difference in apparent saturation is immediately noticeable.

                 

                Gladiola_CR2.jpg

                 

                Is that closer to your expectations?

                 

                 

                EDIT:  I forgot to mention that I did run the CR2 file through the DNG Converter 5.6 and the resulting DNG file is IDENTICAL to the original CR2 file you posted when both are opened in ACR 5.6 hosted by Bridge or by Photoshop indistinctly.

                • 5. Re: DNG Converter 5.6 and Canon S90 RAW Images
                  Rob_Minter Level 1

                  Hello Tai,

                   

                  Thanks for all you have done so far. I must say I'm a bit surprised at your findings. If you would bear with me a little longer I would be most grateful.

                   

                   

                  Firstly, I have uploaded my converted DNG file form the CR2 file sent previously. You can find it here:

                  http://www.yousendit.com/download/S1VEeW42U1AxUUNGa1E9PQ.

                  Please compare this to your converted file to see whether it's the same.

                   

                  Secondly, I have also uploaded a PowerPoint file showing screepdumps of what the CR2  image looks like when opened with the Canon software, and the DNG file when opened with ACR 4.6 (note: I am using Photoshop CS3). I appreciate that the image is underexposed, but I would have thought that both the DNG and the CR2 files should look the same, i.e. both should show the underexposure?. The link to the PowerPoint file is http://www.yousendit.com/download/S1VEeW4xeWFrWTlMWEE9PQ

                   

                  Thanks again.

                  Rob.

                  • 6. Re: DNG Converter 5.6 and Canon S90 RAW Images
                    ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    The DNG and CR2 you've posted look identical when both viewed in ACR or Lightroom.

                     

                    The difference you're seeing is the fact you're using two different RAW converters to process the file, DPP for the CR2 and ACR for the DNG, and each has their own "defaults".

                     

                    DPP picks up what Contrast and such you've set in camera and uses Canon's proprietary algorithms, and ACR uses the defaults of Brightness=50, Contrast=25, Blackpoint=5, Toning Curve=Medium Contrast using Adobe's proprietary RAW conversion algorithms.

                     

                    You're not going to get Adobe to "fix" something with ACR to make it work the same as DPP.  Adobe has no inside knowledge of what Canon does in DPP so ACR will never be exactly the same, and as you can see, Adobe's defaults have more contrast (which increases the saturation as well).  You can easily set your own ACR defaults to something with less contrast.

                     

                    With newer versions of ACR you can select from several different Adobe-created camera profiles including Camera Faithful that should be more similar to what the Canon conversion is, and you can even create your own custom camera profiles using a Color Checker that you can tweak further, but unless Canon and Adobe merge as a company and have access to eachother's intellectual property, you're not going to see the same conversion from DPP vs ACR.

                    • 7. Re: DNG Converter 5.6 and Canon S90 RAW Images
                      Level 4

                      Rob_Minter wrote:

                       

                      Hello Tai,

                       

                       

                       

                      Firstly, I have uploaded my converted DNG file form the CR2 file sent previously. You can find it here:

                      http://www.yousendit.com/download/S1VEeW42U1AxUUNGa1E9PQ.

                      Please compare this to your converted file to see whether it's the same.

                       

                       

                      Yes, I downloaded your DNG file.  It is in fact IDENTICAL to your CRD file.

                       

                       

                      Rob_Minter wrote:

                       

                      …, but I would have thought that both the DNG and the CR2 files should look the same, i.e. both should show the underexposure?.

                       

                      YES, and they do. 

                       

                       

                      Rob_Minter wrote:

                       

                       

                      Secondly, I have also uploaded a PowerPoint file showing screepdumps of what the CR2  image looks like when opened with the Canon software, …

                       

                       

                      I don't even have to look at your Powerpoint file (I much prefer not to launch Powerpoint unless my life depends on it).

                       

                      The fallacy here is your expecting the ACR rendition and the Canon interpretation to look the same.  ssprengel has already explained that to you in his previous post.

                       

                      ACR is not designed to emulate the camera manufacturer's software.  To learn how to use ACR 4.6, I would recommend Jeff Schewe's book; there are versions for CS2, CS3 and CS4, but you should get the CS4 edition and upgrade to CS4 ASAP.  You are leaving a lot of image quality behind by sticking to the obsolete CS3.  ACR 5.6 is literally light-years ahead of ACR 4.6.  Otherwise, stick to your Canon software.

                      • 8. Re: DNG Converter 5.6 and Canon S90 RAW Images
                        ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Or to experiment with ACR5 and ACR6 conversions for free until the end of April, download the Lightroom 3 beta from Adobe Labs:

                         

                        http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/lightroom3/

                         

                         

                        You can see what ACR 5 conversion is like using Develop / Settings -> Process 1, and get a preview of what the ACR 6 conversion will be like (without Luminance NR being implemented) using Settings -> Process 2 which is the default for images that are imported without evidence of being processed in ACR (without an XMP sidecar or embedded metadata).

                         

                        I'd expect CS5/ACR6 be available or close to it by the time the beta expires in 3 months.

                         

                        If you think you want to upgrade to CS4, then download the trial, upgrade to ACR 5.6 and see how it works. 

                         

                        Lightroom will be less disruptive to your current CS3 installation if you think you want to wait for CS5.

                        • 9. Re: DNG Converter 5.6 and Canon S90 RAW Images
                          Rob_Minter Level 1

                          Rob_Minter wrote:

                           

                          Hello Tai,

                           

                           

                           

                          Firstly, I have uploaded my converted DNG file form the CR2 file sent previously. You can find it here:

                          http://www.yousendit.com/download/S1VEeW42U1AxUUNGa1E9PQ.

                          Please compare this to your converted file to see whether it's the same.

                           

                           

                          Yes, I downloaded your DNG file.  It is in fact IDENTICAL to your CRD file.

                           

                           

                          Rob_Minter wrote:

                           

                          …, but I would have thought that both the DNG and the CR2 files should look the same, i.e. both should show the underexposure?.

                           

                          YES, and they do.  Well - maybe they do with the most current software, but they DO NOT with the software I currently have.

                           

                           

                          Rob_Minter wrote:

                           

                           

                          Secondly, I have also uploaded a PowerPoint file showing screepdumps of what the CR2  image looks like when opened with the Canon software, …

                           

                           

                          I don't even have to look at your Powerpoint file (I much prefer not to launch Powerpoint unless my life depends on it). My apologies for putting your life at risk - not all of us have unlimited software options, so we use what we have to try and get messages across.

                           

                          The fallacy here is your expecting the ACR rendition and the Canon interpretation to look the same.  ssprengel has already explained that to you in his previous post. And I appreciate his informative response.

                           

                          ACR is not designed to emulate the camera manufacturer's software.  To learn how to use ACR 4.6, I would recommend Jeff Schewe's book; there are versions for CS2, CS3 and CS4, but you should get the CS4 edition and upgrade to CS4 ASAP.  You are leaving a lot of image quality behind by sticking to the obsolete CS3.  ACR 5.6 is literally light-years ahead of ACR 4.6.  Otherwise, stick to your Canon software. I have been using ACR 4.6 for more than two years now with images from my Canon 40D - there has never been an issue with the DNG files, they look identical to the CR2 images from the camera. So actually, I don't really need the book, but thanks for the suggestion. And I don't want to stick with the Canon software, it's not as good or as user-friendly as ACR, which is why I started this query. If the answer is that one must spend more money on an upgrade the sobeit - Adobe should just come up front and say so - the impression given is that DNG Converter will give one a file that is identical to the original - there is no mention anywhere that one has to have the latest softwear to be able to use the converted file. 

                           

                          Thanks for your time.

                          • 10. Re: DNG Converter 5.6 and Canon S90 RAW Images
                            Rob_Minter Level 1

                            I thank you most sincerely for your constructive responses. Looking at my options, I think I will wait until CS5 is released and then do an upgrade (CS4 was released shortly after I purchased CS3, and not all of us have spare cash to throw around on upgrades). CS3 has been serving me well up to now, but I will wait for CS5 before spending anything more. But I do really appreciate the time you have taken to explain the processes in the depth that you have - thank you.

                            • 11. Re: DNG Converter 5.6 and Canon S90 RAW Images
                              Level 4

                              Rob_Minter wrote:

                               

                              - the impression given is that DNG Converter will give one a file that is identical to the original - there is no mention anywhere that one has to have the latest softwear to be able to use the converted file.

                               

                              The DNG Converter DOES generate an identical image.  No one is saying you need to upgrade your software in order to process the DNG.  Sorry, but you cannot continue to claim that the DNG is not identical to the original CR2.  It is IDENTICAL.  See ssprengel's posts.

                               

                              The suggestion to upgrade is because of the added functionality of ACR 5.6.

                               

                              But the image generated by the DNG is unambiguously, absolutely and undeniably IDENTICAL to that of the CR2 file, regardless of what version of ACR you are using.

                               

                              Reading the totality of your posts, including this latest one, I am still pretty convinced that you would benefit from studying Mr. Schewe's book.  I'm just trying to be helpful, not argumentative.

                               

                              Good luck.

                              • 12. Re: DNG Converter 5.6 and Canon S90 RAW Images
                                Rob_Minter Level 1

                                Thanks for the response. One final question and then I will close off this query - and I accept totally that the converted files are identical to the originals - if I upgrade to ACR 5.6, will the image look the same (on my monitor) as when it is opened in ACR 4.6?

                                 

                                BTW - I'm also not trying to be argumentative. I do appreciate the time you all have put into helping me understand what is going on. Thank you.

                                • 13. Re: DNG Converter 5.6 and Canon S90 RAW Images
                                  Level 4

                                  Rob_Minter wrote:

                                   

                                  …if I upgrade to ACR 5.6, will the image look the same (on my monitor) as when it is opened in ACR 4.6?

                                   

                                   

                                  Rob,

                                   

                                  Well, for starters, you cannot open the CR2 in ACR 4.6 directly.  You know that, of course, otherwise you wouldn't have to mess with the DNG Converter in the first place.  

                                   

                                  If you use ACR 5.6 and if you have correctly installed the additional camera profiles that will get added to ACR 5.6 once you correctly install the DNG Converter 5.6, you will have a variety of choices to open your CR2 file or a DNG derived from that file.  Even the "Adobe Standard" profile for your particular will most likely improve the rendition, but you can choose the "Camera Faithful" or any of the other five profiles specifically provided for your camera model.

                                   

                                  GadiolaCR2.jpg

                                  Note that the screen shot is a medium-resolution JPEG only.

                                  This ACR rendition was generated in ACR 5.6 with the "Adobe Standard" profile

                                  and an Exposure correction of +1.45.

                                   

                                  Also note that only the profiles for the specific camera that generated the raw file will show in the profile menu of the Camera Calibration tab at any given time.  Other cameras will cause that profile menu to show different profiles.  In actuality, the installation of the DNG Converter adds a gazillion profiles for all supported cameras, so it's a good thing that only the camera-model-specific ones show. 

                                   

                                  GladiolaCR2_b.jpg

                                   

                                  This ACR rendition was generated in ACR 5.6 with the "Camera Faithful" profile

                                  and an Exposure correction of +1.45.

                                   

                                   

                                  The rendition of the image will be different with each of the profiles (as you can see above), but even so, I doubt any of those profiles will match the rendition of the totally obsolete ACR 4.6.  The ACR 5.6 rendition is bound to be better.

                                   

                                  Each new version of ACR includes improvements, enhancement and bug fixes that are not publicized or even admitted. 

                                   

                                  If you have mastered the use of ACR, you can match the rendition of just about any raw converter and any other profile, especially if you calibrate your camera, which is extremely easy to do in ACR 5.6.  You can save as many presets as you want.

                                   

                                  That's why I strongly recommend Jeff Schewe's book.  As far as I'm concerned, it's required reading.

                                   

                                  Finally, there are many other reasons to upgrade to ACR 5.6, like the spot Adjustment Brush and the Targeted Adjustment Tool (TAT).

                                   

                                  Don't take my word for it, download the CS4 trial version and update that to ACR 5.6 (it comes with 5.0, also very obsolete).  You can keep different versions of Photoshop on your disk.  On the Mac, you can even run different versions simultaneously by launching the older version(s) first.

                                   

                                  Uninstalling CS4, though, may mangle your CS3 install, so keep that in mind.  My feeling is, though, that once you use CS4, you won't ant to look back at CS3.  DISCLAIMER:  I have no connection to Adobe whatsoever.

                                   

                                  I cannot speak to Lightroom because I do not use it, for a number of reasons that are not relevant to your issue.

                                   

                                  Respectfully,

                                   

                                  Wo-Tai-Lao Wo-Tai-P'ang. 

                                  • 14. Re: DNG Converter 5.6 and Canon S90 RAW Images
                                    Level 4

                                    Just in case you're reading this through emails, be advised that I edited my previous post (#13) and added a second image.  Edits are not reflected in emails from the forum.

                                     

                                    Notice the substantial difference in the histograms of the two renditions, keeping in mind that only the Profile changed between the two.  Each of the other four profiles (there are six for your camera) will generate a different rendition of the same image, ceteris paribus.

                                    • 15. Re: DNG Converter 5.6 and Canon S90 RAW Images
                                      Level 4

                                      Rob,

                                       

                                      Regarding your comments (in your blog) re the noise in the DNG images rendered by ACR 4.6, that is to be expected.  Both Canon and Nikon massively compress the shadows to reduce the visible noise.  ACR, on the other hand, is designed to provide you with as much detail as is available and does not compress the shadows in that brutal fashion.

                                      • 16. Re: DNG Converter 5.6 and Canon S90 RAW Images
                                        Rob_Minter Level 1

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                        Thank you for the additional image. The image produced by the “Camera Faithful” profile is what I would have expected to see after opening the DNG in ACR, having previously viewed the CR2 file (and the camera-produced JPEG) in Zoombrowser (a program I have been virtually forced to use for the S90). The images look very similar, even though the CR2 and JPEG files were not exposure-adjusted.

                                         

                                        Just for interest, I am attaching a screendump from my version of Adobe  Bridge, which shows three files – CR2, DNG and JPEG, of an image taken with my Canon 40D. You will note that each image looks virtually identical, and this is why I was so surprised to see the “saturated” image from the S90.

                                         

                                        Things now appear (to my layman’s mind, anyway) to be a lot more complicated than they were before, and obviously I have a lot of work to do to get to understand the new methods. So I will definitely take your advice and get Jeff Schewe's book. I have just returned from our local bookstore and they don’t have anything by the author. Looking at Amazon, I see there is a book “Real World Camera Raw with Adobe Photoshop CS4by Bruce Fraser and Jeff Schewe – I presume this is the one you are recommending?

                                         

                                        Regarding the upgrade to CS4, I think I might just wait a few months for CS5 so that I don’t (as was the case when I purchased CS3) end up with obsolete software within a month or two of purchase. I am seriously contemplating downloading the trial, and will probably uninstall CS3 before doing so.

                                         

                                        Thank you also for your explanation of the increased noise in the RAW image – makes complete sense.

                                        • 17. Re: DNG Converter 5.6 and Canon S90 RAW Images
                                          Level 4

                                          Rob_Minter wrote:

                                           

                                          Looking at Amazon, I see there is a book “Real World Camera Raw with Adobe Photoshop CS4by Bruce Fraser and Jeff Schewe – I presume this is the one you are recommending?

                                           


                                           

                                          Yes.  There are editions for previous versions, as Real World Camera Raw with Adobe Photoshop CS3, etc.

                                          • 18. Re: DNG Converter 5.6 and Canon S90 RAW Images
                                            Rob_Minter Level 1

                                            Thanks. Have found it at a reasonably local site, kalahari.net and have ordered it. Should be here in about a week.

                                             

                                            BTW - I was able to select the Camera Faithful option in ACR 4.6, and opened up the image to my liking. I obviously have a long way to go with ACr, hence the ordering of the book.

                                             

                                            Thanks again for all your effort. I'm not sure how to close off this session on the Forum, but all my issues have now been satisfactorily resolved.

                                            • 19. Re: DNG Converter 5.6 and Canon S90 RAW Images
                                              Rob_Minter Level 1

                                              I know that this query is now closed, but I thought I would just let you know that I have edited the blog post to reflect the fact that the problem was mine and not caused by the software.