23 Replies Latest reply on Jun 12, 2008 3:23 PM by Newsgroup_User

    must I use frames for this?

    macapples Level 1
      I have some external links that I'd like to keep within a site versus opening a new browser window (for branding purposes). Do I need to set up a page with frames to essentially bring those sites into my main content area?

      Thanks!
      Eric
        • 1. Re: must I use frames for this?
          Level 7
          macapples wrote:
          > I have some external links that I'd like to keep within a site versus opening a
          > new browser window (for branding purposes). Do I need to set up a page with
          > frames to essentially bring those sites into my main content area?
          >
          > Thanks!
          > Eric
          >

          your branding pruposes will be just as hurt by the outdated use of frames and numerous drawbacks
          that come with it.

          Better open a new window. Even better, just link to it so it opens in the same window.

          --
          seb (@webtrans1.com)

          high-end web design: http://webtrans1.com

          Sign-up for a free beta test of SiteLander, an ingenious website-builder:
          http://webtrans1.com/sitelander/

          music: http://myspace.com/popmodelberlin
          • 2. Re: must I use frames for this?
            Level 7
            yeah, that would probably be the only way to do it. but i'd recommend
            just opening them in a new window. i've done it with frames before, and
            it just doesn't work well. you're basically trying to fit one website
            into another, and it generally looks horrible (not to mention the
            various drawbacks involved in using frames in general). i understand the
            desire to keep people on your site, but you can achieve that by having
            the links open in a new window/tab, because your site will still be
            there when the visitor closes the new window/tab.

            macapples wrote:
            > I have some external links that I'd like to keep within a site versus opening a
            > new browser window (for branding purposes). Do I need to set up a page with
            > frames to essentially bring those sites into my main content area?
            >
            > Thanks!
            > Eric
            >
            >
            • 3. Re: must I use frames for this?
              Level 7
              .oO(courtney (n h c))

              >yeah, that would probably be the only way to do it. but i'd recommend
              >just opening them in a new window. i've done it with frames before, and
              >it just doesn't work well. you're basically trying to fit one website
              >into another, and it generally looks horrible (not to mention the
              >various drawbacks involved in using frames in general). i understand the
              >desire to keep people on your site, but you can achieve that by having
              >the links open in a new window/tab, because your site will still be
              >there when the visitor closes the new window/tab.

              It's an illusion that you can keep visitors on your own site if you open
              external links in a new window. People know how to use a "back" button -
              it's the second-most used function in a browser. New windows/tabs might
              even be confusing, because they break(!) this important function.

              Frames and the 'target' attribute are not allowed in all strict (X)HTML
              standards for good reasons. It's best to simply link to the other site,
              without trying to mess with how or where the browser will display it.
              Let the browser and the user decide such things.

              <a href=" http://example.com">another site</a>

              That's it. Can't get easier.

              Micha
              • 4. Re: must I use frames for this?
                macapples Level 1
                Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated. I'll go back and discuss new window v.s link aways with the client.

                Eric
                • 5. Re: must I use frames for this?
                  Level 7
                  This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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                  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

                  sorry, but i disagree. what if the visitor is taken to the other site
                  and starts clicking around in that site? then they have to click the
                  back button who knows how many times to get back to the page they were
                  on to begin with. i, personally, would much rather just have to click
                  the close button once on the new tab or window, than click "back"
                  however many times it takes me to back to the original page. obviously,
                  everyone has their own preferences, but i'm gonna have to go with one
                  click over several on this one. not to mention, what if the new site has
                  some kind of form on it that they fill out? i doubt i have to tell you
                  what happens with a lot of forms when you try to click back to where you
                  were before the form.

                  also, what if the visitor gets caught up in the new website and forgets
                  where they started in the first place? the back button won't help then.
                  they're just gone. and my company has lost a potential customer. but if
                  the new site is in a different tab or window, when they close it they'll
                  see my site again, and be all like, "oh yeah! i was looking at this site
                  before. guess i'll look at it some more."

                  i guess i'm not so worried about people who don't notice when a new
                  window or tab is opening. it's fairly obvious when that happens. and if
                  it's that much of a concern, you can add an alert pop-up that lets them
                  know the link is opening a new window. i have a link on one of the
                  websites i work on that has an alert that says something like "this link
                  is opening a different website in a new window. close that window to
                  return to this site." i did this because having it open in the same
                  window was confusing people. they thought the new site was part of ours.

                  i'd be interested in other people's thoughts on this.

                  Michael Fesser wrote:
                  > .oO(courtney (n h c))
                  >
                  >
                  >> yeah, that would probably be the only way to do it. but i'd recommend
                  >> just opening them in a new window. i've done it with frames before, and
                  >> it just doesn't work well. you're basically trying to fit one website
                  >> into another, and it generally looks horrible (not to mention the
                  >> various drawbacks involved in using frames in general). i understand the
                  >> desire to keep people on your site, but you can achieve that by having
                  >> the links open in a new window/tab, because your site will still be
                  >> there when the visitor closes the new window/tab.
                  >>
                  >
                  > It's an illusion that you can keep visitors on your own site if you open
                  > external links in a new window. People know how to use a "back" button -
                  > it's the second-most used function in a browser. New windows/tabs might
                  > even be confusing, because they break(!) this important function.
                  >
                  > Frames and the 'target' attribute are not allowed in all strict (X)HTML
                  > standards for good reasons. It's best to simply link to the other site,
                  > without trying to mess with how or where the browser will display it.
                  > Let the browser and the user decide such things.
                  >
                  > <a href=" http://example.com">another site</a>
                  >
                  > That's it. Can't get easier.
                  >
                  > Micha
                  >

                  --------------050306090903030305030509
                  Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
                  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

                  <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
                  <html>
                  <head>
                  <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
                  <title></title>
                  </head>
                  <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
                  sorry, but i disagree. what if the visitor is taken to the other site
                  and starts clicking around in that site? then they have to click the
                  back button who knows how many times to get back to the page they were
                  on to begin with. i, personally, would much rather just have to click
                  the close button once on the new tab or window, than click "back"
                  however many times it takes me to back to the original page. obviously,
                  everyone has their own preferences, but i'm gonna have to go with one
                  click over several on this one. not to mention, what if the new site
                  has some kind of form on it that they fill out? i doubt i have to tell
                  you what happens with a lot of forms when you try to click back to
                  where you were before the form.<br>
                  <br>
                  also, what if the visitor gets caught up in the new website and forgets
                  where they started in the first place? the back button won't help then.
                  they're just gone. and my company has lost a potential customer. but if
                  the new site is in a different tab or window, when they close it
                  they'll see my site again, and be all like, "oh yeah! i was looking at
                  this site before. guess i'll look at it some more."<br>
                  <br>
                  i guess i'm not so worried about people who don't notice when a new
                  window or tab is opening. it's fairly obvious when that happens. and if
                  it's that much of a concern, you can add an alert pop-up that lets them
                  know the link is opening a new window. i have a link on one of the
                  websites i work on that has an alert that says something like "this
                  link is opening a different website in a new window. close that window
                  to return to this site." i did this because having it open in the same
                  window was confusing people. they thought the new site was part of
                  ours. <br>
                  <br>
                  i'd be interested in other people's thoughts on this.<br>
                  <br>
                  Michael Fesser wrote:
                  <blockquote cite="mid:4o0r44djucc737jht96rggpke128ihgvui@4ax.com"
                  type="cite">
                  <pre wrap="">.oO(courtney (n h c))

                  </pre>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                  <pre wrap="">yeah, that would probably be the only way to do it. but i'd recommend
                  just opening them in a new window. i've done it with frames before, and
                  it just doesn't work well. you're basically trying to fit one website
                  into another, and it generally looks horrible (not to mention the
                  various drawbacks involved in using frames in general). i understand the
                  desire to keep people on your site, but you can achieve that by having
                  the links open in a new window/tab, because your site will still be
                  there when the visitor closes the new window/tab.
                  </pre>
                  </blockquote>
                  <pre wrap=""><!---->
                  It's an illusion that you can keep visitors on your own site if you open
                  external links in a new window. People know how to use a "back" button -
                  it's the second-most used function in a browser. New windows/tabs might
                  even be confusing, because they break(!) this important function.

                  Frames and the 'target' attribute are not allowed in all strict (X)HTML
                  standards for good reasons. It's best to simply link to the other site,
                  without trying to mess with how or where the browser will display it.
                  Let the browser and the user decide such things.

                  &lt;a href=<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=" http://example.com">"http://example.com"</a>&gt;another site&lt;/a&gt;

                  That's it. Can't get easier.

                  Micha
                  </pre>
                  </blockquote>
                  </body>
                  </html>

                  --------------050306090903030305030509--
                  • 6. Re: must I use frames for this?
                    Level 7
                    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
                    --------------050207030400080007010702
                    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
                    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

                    sorry, i left this part out of my last message, and just wanted to
                    mention that i'm aware of the page history button next to the back
                    button that allows you to choose which page to go back to, and use it
                    often. but many people do not know about that handy option, and would
                    instead just keep clicking the button until they get back to where they
                    want to be.

                    that's all!

                    courtney (n h c) wrote:
                    > sorry, but i disagree. what if the visitor is taken to the other site
                    > and starts clicking around in that site? then they have to click the
                    > back button who knows how many times to get back to the page they were
                    > on to begin with. i, personally, would much rather just have to click
                    > the close button once on the new tab or window, than click "back"
                    > however many times it takes me to back to the original page.
                    > obviously, everyone has their own preferences, but i'm gonna have to
                    > go with one click over several on this one. not to mention, what if
                    > the new site has some kind of form on it that they fill out? i doubt i
                    > have to tell you what happens with a lot of forms when you try to
                    > click back to where you were before the form.
                    >
                    > also, what if the visitor gets caught up in the new website and
                    > forgets where they started in the first place? the back button won't
                    > help then. they're just gone. and my company has lost a potential
                    > customer. but if the new site is in a different tab or window, when
                    > they close it they'll see my site again, and be all like, "oh yeah! i
                    > was looking at this site before. guess i'll look at it some more."
                    >
                    > i guess i'm not so worried about people who don't notice when a new
                    > window or tab is opening. it's fairly obvious when that happens. and
                    > if it's that much of a concern, you can add an alert pop-up that lets
                    > them know the link is opening a new window. i have a link on one of
                    > the websites i work on that has an alert that says something like
                    > "this link is opening a different website in a new window. close that
                    > window to return to this site." i did this because having it open in
                    > the same window was confusing people. they thought the new site was
                    > part of ours.
                    >
                    > i'd be interested in other people's thoughts on this.
                    >
                    > Michael Fesser wrote:
                    >> .oO(courtney (n h c))
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>> yeah, that would probably be the only way to do it. but i'd recommend
                    >>> just opening them in a new window. i've done it with frames before, and
                    >>> it just doesn't work well. you're basically trying to fit one website
                    >>> into another, and it generally looks horrible (not to mention the
                    >>> various drawbacks involved in using frames in general). i understand the
                    >>> desire to keep people on your site, but you can achieve that by having
                    >>> the links open in a new window/tab, because your site will still be
                    >>> there when the visitor closes the new window/tab.
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >> It's an illusion that you can keep visitors on your own site if you open
                    >> external links in a new window. People know how to use a "back" button -
                    >> it's the second-most used function in a browser. New windows/tabs might
                    >> even be confusing, because they break(!) this important function.
                    >>
                    >> Frames and the 'target' attribute are not allowed in all strict (X)HTML
                    >> standards for good reasons. It's best to simply link to the other site,
                    >> without trying to mess with how or where the browser will display it.
                    >> Let the browser and the user decide such things.
                    >>
                    >> <a href=" http://example.com">another site</a>
                    >>
                    >> That's it. Can't get easier.
                    >>
                    >> Micha
                    >>

                    --------------050207030400080007010702
                    Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
                    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

                    <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
                    <html>
                    <head>
                    <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
                    </head>
                    <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
                    sorry, i left this part out of my last message, and just wanted to
                    mention that i'm aware of the page history button next to the back
                    button that allows you to choose which page to go back to, and use it
                    often. but many people do not know about that handy option, and would
                    instead just keep clicking the button until they get back to where they
                    want to be.<br>
                    <br>
                    that's all!<br>
                    <br>
                    courtney (n h c) wrote:
                    <blockquote cite="mid:g2m9ni$f7j$1@forums.macromedia.com" type="cite">
                    <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
                    <title></title>
                    sorry, but i disagree. what if the visitor is taken to the other site
                    and starts clicking around in that site? then they have to click the
                    back button who knows how many times to get back to the page they were
                    on to begin with. i, personally, would much rather just have to click
                    the close button once on the new tab or window, than click "back"
                    however many times it takes me to back to the original page. obviously,
                    everyone has their own preferences, but i'm gonna have to go with one
                    click over several on this one. not to mention, what if the new site
                    has some kind of form on it that they fill out? i doubt i have to tell
                    you what happens with a lot of forms when you try to click back to
                    where you were before the form.<br>
                    <br>
                    also, what if the visitor gets caught up in the new website and forgets
                    where they started in the first place? the back button won't help then.
                    they're just gone. and my company has lost a potential customer. but if
                    the new site is in a different tab or window, when they close it
                    they'll see my site again, and be all like, "oh yeah! i was looking at
                    this site before. guess i'll look at it some more."<br>
                    <br>
                    i guess i'm not so worried about people who don't notice when a new
                    window or tab is opening. it's fairly obvious when that happens. and if
                    it's that much of a concern, you can add an alert pop-up that lets them
                    know the link is opening a new window. i have a link on one of the
                    websites i work on that has an alert that says something like "this
                    link is opening a different website in a new window. close that window
                    to return to this site." i did this because having it open in the same
                    window was confusing people. they thought the new site was part of
                    ours. <br>
                    <br>
                    i'd be interested in other people's thoughts on this.<br>
                    <br>
                    Michael Fesser wrote:
                    <blockquote cite="mid:4o0r44djucc737jht96rggpke128ihgvui@4ax.com"
                    type="cite">
                    <pre wrap="">.oO(courtney (n h c))

                    </pre>
                    <blockquote type="cite">
                    <pre wrap="">yeah, that would probably be the only way to do it. but i'd recommend
                    just opening them in a new window. i've done it with frames before, and
                    it just doesn't work well. you're basically trying to fit one website
                    into another, and it generally looks horrible (not to mention the
                    various drawbacks involved in using frames in general). i understand the
                    desire to keep people on your site, but you can achieve that by having
                    the links open in a new window/tab, because your site will still be
                    there when the visitor closes the new window/tab.
                    </pre>
                    </blockquote>
                    <pre wrap=""><!---->
                    It's an illusion that you can keep visitors on your own site if you open
                    external links in a new window. People know how to use a "back" button -
                    it's the second-most used function in a browser. New windows/tabs might
                    even be confusing, because they break(!) this important function.

                    Frames and the 'target' attribute are not allowed in all strict (X)HTML
                    standards for good reasons. It's best to simply link to the other site,
                    without trying to mess with how or where the browser will display it.
                    Let the browser and the user decide such things.

                    &lt;a href=<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                    href=" http://example.com">"http://example.com"</a>&gt;another site&lt;/a&gt;

                    That's it. Can't get easier.

                    Micha
                    </pre>
                    </blockquote>
                    </blockquote>
                    </body>
                    </html>

                    --------------050207030400080007010702--
                    • 7. Re: must I use frames for this?
                      Level 7
                      courtney (n h c) wrote:
                      > i'd be interested in other people's thoughts on this.

                      I think it should be left to the user to decide. If I want to leave a
                      website, but be able to easily go back to it, I open the link in a new
                      tab or window, shift and click in Firefox to open it in a new window, or
                      ctrl and click to open it in a new tab.

                      Don't force your opinions on your users, just because you like to surf
                      in a particular way doesn't mean they do, give them the respect that
                      they deserve, and let links work the way they were intended.

                      Why are target attributes invalid in XHTML?

                      Steve
                      • 8. Re: must I use frames for this?
                        Level 7
                        Target attributes are only invalid in Strict doctypes.

                        --
                        Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                        Adobe Community Expert
                        (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
                        ==================
                        http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                        http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                        ==================


                        "Dooza" <doozadooza@gmail.com> wrote in message
                        news:g2mb6v$gnt$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                        > courtney (n h c) wrote:
                        >> i'd be interested in other people's thoughts on this.
                        >
                        > I think it should be left to the user to decide. If I want to leave a
                        > website, but be able to easily go back to it, I open the link in a new tab
                        > or window, shift and click in Firefox to open it in a new window, or ctrl
                        > and click to open it in a new tab.
                        >
                        > Don't force your opinions on your users, just because you like to surf in
                        > a particular way doesn't mean they do, give them the respect that they
                        > deserve, and let links work the way they were intended.
                        >
                        > Why are target attributes invalid in XHTML?
                        >
                        > Steve

                        • 9. Re: must I use frames for this?
                          Level 7
                          .oO(courtney (n h c))

                          >sorry, but i disagree. what if the visitor is taken to the other site
                          >and starts clicking around in that site? then they have to click the
                          >back button who knows how many times to get back to the page they were
                          >on to begin with.

                          They have to click at most two times. OK, they would have to know that
                          in every modern browser the back button has two functions ...

                          >i, personally, would much rather just have to click
                          >the close button once on the new tab or window, than click "back"
                          >however many times it takes me to back to the original page. obviously,
                          >everyone has their own preferences, but i'm gonna have to go with one
                          >click over several on this one. not to mention, what if the new site has
                          >some kind of form on it that they fill out? i doubt i have to tell you
                          >what happens with a lot of forms when you try to click back to where you
                          >were before the form.

                          Still just two clicks. ;) But I understood your point.

                          >also, what if the visitor gets caught up in the new website and forgets
                          >where they started in the first place? the back button won't help then.

                          And how should a new window help here? After a while of surfing they
                          probably won't care anymore about the site where they started from.
                          But that's just too many "what if"s.

                          >they're just gone. and my company has lost a potential customer. but if
                          >the new site is in a different tab or window, when they close it they'll
                          >see my site again, and be all like, "oh yeah! i was looking at this site
                          >before. guess i'll look at it some more."

                          One main point against the 'target' stuff is that it's much easier to
                          open a new window _by_intention_ than to prevent it. If they want to
                          examine the new site independently, they can easily open it in a new
                          window if they want to (and know how). But it's much more difficult to
                          prevent that from happening unintentionally, even for experienced users.

                          The other main point is that frames (where the 'target' attribute
                          belongs to) are a deprecated feature and not part of any strict web
                          standard, simply because they're not in the sense of HTML and all
                          current browser implementations have severe usability problems (the
                          XFrames spec, which is meant to solve at least some of these problems,
                          is still just a working draft).

                          For new sites a "Transitional" document type doesn't really make sense,
                          so at least for me the 'target' attribute is just invalid. That's it.

                          >i guess i'm not so worried about people who don't notice when a new
                          >window or tab is opening. it's fairly obvious when that happens.

                          Not necessarily. With a fullscreen non-tabbed browser many users won't
                          notice when a new browser window was opened, they're just wondering why
                          the back button doesn't work anymore. And even with a tabbed browser a
                          new tab is not always obvious if there are already a dozen others open.

                          >and if
                          >it's that much of a concern, you can add an alert pop-up that lets them
                          >know the link is opening a new window.

                          JS alerts are even more annoying than new windows. If you want to tell
                          your visitors about your intentions to open a new window, then do it
                          "inline" as normal text on the page or with some icon attached to the
                          link.

                          Micha
                          • 10. Re: must I use frames for this?
                            Level 7
                            fair enough. but what about people who don't know how to open a link in
                            a new window or tab? i promise you, there are many. probably more than
                            there are people who do know how to do it.

                            don't assume that the average web user is as computer and/or web savvy
                            as you are. remember, not everyone makes their living working on a
                            computer. i know people who don't know how to open a program if there's
                            not an icon for it on the desktop. most people i know don't even know
                            about Firefox! most people i know don't even know what i'm talking about
                            when i say "browser." i can't count on people like that knowing how to
                            open a link a new window to make sure they can return easily to my website.

                            i also don't think that i'm not giving them respect by trying to make
                            things easier for them.

                            Dooza wrote:
                            > courtney (n h c) wrote:
                            >> i'd be interested in other people's thoughts on this.
                            >
                            > I think it should be left to the user to decide. If I want to leave a
                            > website, but be able to easily go back to it, I open the link in a new
                            > tab or window, shift and click in Firefox to open it in a new window,
                            > or ctrl and click to open it in a new tab.
                            >
                            > Don't force your opinions on your users, just because you like to surf
                            > in a particular way doesn't mean they do, give them the respect that
                            > they deserve, and let links work the way they were intended.
                            >
                            > Why are target attributes invalid in XHTML?
                            >
                            > Steve
                            • 11. Re: must I use frames for this?
                              Level 7
                              courtney (n h c) wrote:
                              > fair enough. but what about people who don't know how to open a link in
                              > a new window or tab? i promise you, there are many. probably more than
                              > there are people who do know how to do it.
                              >
                              > don't assume that the average web user is as computer and/or web savvy
                              > as you are. remember, not everyone makes their living working on a
                              > computer. i know people who don't know how to open a program if there's
                              > not an icon for it on the desktop. most people i know don't even know
                              > about Firefox! most people i know don't even know what i'm talking about
                              > when i say "browser." i can't count on people like that knowing how to
                              > open a link a new window to make sure they can return easily to my website.
                              >
                              > i also don't think that i'm not giving them respect by trying to make
                              > things easier for them.

                              Just my opinion, as requested :)

                              Steve
                              • 12. Re: must I use frames for this?
                                Level 7
                                Murray *ACE* wrote:
                                > Target attributes are only invalid in Strict doctypes.

                                I didn't know that, thanks Murray.

                                Steve
                                • 13. Re: must I use frames for this?
                                  Level 7
                                  i know! and i appreciate it. i tried responding to this thread twice
                                  yesterday and they didn't go through for some reason!

                                  basically, i said that these are all good points, and i'll consider
                                  doing it differently in the future. i can definitely agree that not
                                  every link to a different site should open in a new window, but there
                                  are some cases where i still think it's the best thing to do.

                                  thanks for the input guys! always learning.

                                  Dooza wrote:
                                  > courtney (n h c) wrote:
                                  >> fair enough. but what about people who don't know how to open a link
                                  >> in a new window or tab? i promise you, there are many. probably more
                                  >> than there are people who do know how to do it.
                                  >>
                                  >> don't assume that the average web user is as computer and/or web
                                  >> savvy as you are. remember, not everyone makes their living working
                                  >> on a computer. i know people who don't know how to open a program if
                                  >> there's not an icon for it on the desktop. most people i know don't
                                  >> even know about Firefox! most people i know don't even know what i'm
                                  >> talking about when i say "browser." i can't count on people like that
                                  >> knowing how to open a link a new window to make sure they can return
                                  >> easily to my website.
                                  >>
                                  >> i also don't think that i'm not giving them respect by trying to make
                                  >> things easier for them.
                                  >
                                  > Just my opinion, as requested :)
                                  >
                                  > Steve
                                  • 14. Re: must I use frames for this?
                                    Level 7
                                    courtney (n h c) wrote:
                                    > i know! and i appreciate it. i tried responding to this thread twice
                                    > yesterday and they didn't go through for some reason!
                                    >
                                    > basically, i said that these are all good points, and i'll consider
                                    > doing it differently in the future. i can definitely agree that not
                                    > every link to a different site should open in a new window, but there
                                    > are some cases where i still think it's the best thing to do.
                                    >
                                    > thanks for the input guys! always learning.

                                    Your welcome :)

                                    Steve
                                    • 15. Re: must I use frames for this?
                                      Level 7
                                      .oO(courtney (n h c))

                                      >i know! and i appreciate it. i tried responding to this thread twice
                                      >yesterday and they didn't go through for some reason!

                                      I got two emails from you yesterday at 17:25 and 17:34 GMT ... were they
                                      supposed to be posted to the group? ;)

                                      Micha
                                      • 16. Re: must I use frames for this?
                                        Level 7
                                        This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
                                        --------------050002020304090606030603
                                        Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
                                        Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

                                        really?? yeah, that must be what happened. maybe my Thunderbird was
                                        acting up. i just clicked "reply" like i always do!

                                        sorry about that. :)

                                        Michael Fesser wrote:
                                        > .oO(courtney (n h c))
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >> i know! and i appreciate it. i tried responding to this thread twice
                                        >> yesterday and they didn't go through for some reason!
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        > I got two emails from you yesterday at 17:25 and 17:34 GMT ... were they
                                        > supposed to be posted to the group? ;)
                                        >
                                        > Micha
                                        >

                                        --------------050002020304090606030603
                                        Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
                                        Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

                                        <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
                                        <html>
                                        <head>
                                        <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
                                        </head>
                                        <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
                                        really?? yeah, that must be what happened. maybe my Thunderbird was
                                        acting up. i just clicked "reply" like i always do!<br>
                                        <br>
                                        sorry about that.  :)<br>
                                        <br>
                                        Michael Fesser wrote:
                                        <blockquote cite="mid:6e005496eqbd9442nprfeqfd1ckj79eu0p@4ax.com"
                                        type="cite">
                                        <pre wrap="">.oO(courtney (n h c))

                                        </pre>
                                        <blockquote type="cite">
                                        <pre wrap="">i know! and i appreciate it. i tried responding to this thread twice
                                        yesterday and they didn't go through for some reason!
                                        </pre>
                                        </blockquote>
                                        <pre wrap=""><!---->
                                        I got two emails from you yesterday at 17:25 and 17:34 GMT ... were they
                                        supposed to be posted to the group? ;)

                                        Micha
                                        </pre>
                                        </blockquote>
                                        </body>
                                        </html>

                                        --------------050002020304090606030603--
                                        • 17. Re: must I use frames for this?
                                          Level 7
                                          .oO(courtney (n h c))

                                          >really?? yeah, that must be what happened. maybe my Thunderbird was
                                          >acting up. i just clicked "reply" like i always do!
                                          >
                                          >sorry about that. :)

                                          No problem. JFTR here's the second one (the first one was almost the
                                          same, just little differences), obviously a reply to my posting:

                                          >yeah, you make good points. it's possible that being around stupid
                                          >people all day is clouding my judgment. you assume most people know you
                                          >can go back to a specific page using the back button, i assume most
                                          >people don't even know about the back button (that's an exaggeration,
                                          >but you probably get my point.)
                                          >
                                          >but i will consider doing things differently in the future. i think it
                                          >actually depends on the situation. there are times when i don't see the
                                          >need to open a new window, but others where it really does seems like
                                          >the best option.
                                          >
                                          >oh, and that alert, there was text on the page indicating that the link
                                          >opened a new site, but some people still weren't getting it, and it was
                                          >causing issues. i think sometimes some people just don't see stuff
                                          >unless you shove it in their face!

                                          Micha
                                          • 18. Re: must I use frames for this?
                                            Level 7
                                            Michael Fesser wrote:
                                            > .oO(courtney (n h c))
                                            >
                                            >> sorry, but i disagree. what if the visitor is taken to the other site
                                            >> and starts clicking around in that site? then they have to click the
                                            >> back button who knows how many times to get back to the page they were
                                            >> on to begin with.
                                            >
                                            > They have to click at most two times. OK, they would have to know that
                                            > in every modern browser the back button has two functions ...
                                            >
                                            >> i, personally, would much rather just have to click
                                            >> the close button once on the new tab or window, than click "back"
                                            >> however many times it takes me to back to the original page. obviously,
                                            >> everyone has their own preferences, but i'm gonna have to go with one
                                            >> click over several on this one. not to mention, what if the new site has
                                            >> some kind of form on it that they fill out? i doubt i have to tell you
                                            >> what happens with a lot of forms when you try to click back to where you
                                            >> were before the form.
                                            >
                                            > Still just two clicks. ;) But I understood your point.
                                            >
                                            >> also, what if the visitor gets caught up in the new website and forgets
                                            >> where they started in the first place? the back button won't help then.
                                            >
                                            > And how should a new window help here? After a while of surfing they
                                            > probably won't care anymore about the site where they started from.
                                            > But that's just too many "what if"s.
                                            >
                                            >> they're just gone. and my company has lost a potential customer. but if
                                            >> the new site is in a different tab or window, when they close it they'll
                                            >> see my site again, and be all like, "oh yeah! i was looking at this site
                                            >> before. guess i'll look at it some more."
                                            >
                                            > One main point against the 'target' stuff is that it's much easier to
                                            > open a new window _by_intention_ than to prevent it. If they want to
                                            > examine the new site independently, they can easily open it in a new
                                            > window if they want to (and know how). But it's much more difficult to
                                            > prevent that from happening unintentionally, even for experienced users.
                                            >
                                            > The other main point is that frames (where the 'target' attribute
                                            > belongs to) are a deprecated feature and not part of any strict web
                                            > standard, simply because they're not in the sense of HTML and all
                                            > current browser implementations have severe usability problems (the
                                            > XFrames spec, which is meant to solve at least some of these problems,
                                            > is still just a working draft).
                                            >
                                            > For new sites a "Transitional" document type doesn't really make sense,
                                            > so at least for me the 'target' attribute is just invalid. That's it.
                                            >
                                            >> i guess i'm not so worried about people who don't notice when a new
                                            >> window or tab is opening. it's fairly obvious when that happens.
                                            >
                                            > Not necessarily. With a fullscreen non-tabbed browser many users won't
                                            > notice when a new browser window was opened, they're just wondering why
                                            > the back button doesn't work anymore. And even with a tabbed browser a
                                            > new tab is not always obvious if there are already a dozen others open.
                                            >
                                            >> and if
                                            >> it's that much of a concern, you can add an alert pop-up that lets them
                                            >> know the link is opening a new window.
                                            >
                                            > JS alerts are even more annoying than new windows. If you want to tell
                                            > your visitors about your intentions to open a new window, then do it
                                            > "inline" as normal text on the page or with some icon attached to the
                                            > link.
                                            >
                                            > Micha

                                            there's nothing wrong with opening a new browser window.
                                            target="_blank" may be deprecated or even "invalid" in strict HTML, it will still be one of the most
                                            usefull features of the web 20 years from now.


                                            --
                                            seb (@webtrans1.com)

                                            high-end web design: http://webtrans1.com

                                            Sign-up for a free beta test of SiteLander, an ingenious website-builder:
                                            http://webtrans1.com/sitelander/

                                            music: http://myspace.com/popmodelberlin
                                            • 19. Re: must I use frames for this?
                                              Level 7
                                              Michael Fesser wrote:
                                              > .oO(courtney (n h c))
                                              >
                                              >> really?? yeah, that must be what happened. maybe my Thunderbird was
                                              >> acting up. i just clicked "reply" like i always do!
                                              >>
                                              >> sorry about that. :)
                                              >
                                              > No problem. JFTR here's the second one (the first one was almost the
                                              > same, just little differences), obviously a reply to my posting:
                                              >
                                              >> yeah, you make good points. it's possible that being around stupid
                                              >> people all day is clouding my judgment. you assume most people know you
                                              >> can go back to a specific page using the back button, i assume most
                                              >> people don't even know about the back button (that's an exaggeration,
                                              >> but you probably get my point.)
                                              >>
                                              >> but i will consider doing things differently in the future. i think it
                                              >> actually depends on the situation. there are times when i don't see the
                                              >> need to open a new window, but others where it really does seems like
                                              >> the best option.
                                              >>
                                              >> oh, and that alert, there was text on the page indicating that the link
                                              >> opened a new site, but some people still weren't getting it, and it was
                                              >> causing issues. i think sometimes some people just don't see stuff
                                              >> unless you shove it in their face!
                                              >
                                              > Micha

                                              most people don't know the difference between the browser address bar and google's search bar. they
                                              just type the url into google's search bar, and if you tell them "no, the browser's address bar" say
                                              don't understand and think you're a geek. Which we are all on this forum.
                                              The web will never be strict and should never be strict, because people are not (and should not) be
                                              supposed to be geeks to use it or MAKE it.
                                              Long live target="_blank"!


                                              --
                                              seb (@webtrans1.com)

                                              high-end web design: http://webtrans1.com

                                              Sign-up for a free beta test of SiteLander, an ingenious website-builder:
                                              http://webtrans1.com/sitelander/

                                              music: http://myspace.com/popmodelberlin
                                              • 20. Re: must I use frames for this?
                                                Level 7
                                                .oO((_seb_))

                                                >there's nothing wrong with opening a new browser window.

                                                It's just your own opinion. Not everyone thinks like that, which is why
                                                there will never be a final solution in such discussions.

                                                >target="_blank" may be deprecated or even "invalid" in strict HTML, it
                                                >will still be one of the most usefull features of the web 20 years from
                                                >now.

                                                For me it's one of the most stupid, annoying and HTML-abusing features
                                                (same as frames, where the 'target' attribute comes from). Because of
                                                that I will _never_ use it on my own sites. For me the drawbacks far
                                                outweigh the benefits, if there are any at all.

                                                A while ago I even thought about setting up a local filter proxy to
                                                automatically remove 'target' attributes from all the pages I visit.
                                                Meanwhile at least Firefox has an option to ignore it, hopefully other
                                                browsers will follow.

                                                But this is just my opinion on that. YMMV, of course.

                                                Micha
                                                • 21. Re: must I use frames for this?
                                                  Level 7
                                                  hehe...i think we're on the same wavelength, seb!

                                                  and you're absolutely right. i know (and work with) people who type
                                                  addresses into the Google search bar instead of the address bar, and if
                                                  i say something about the address bar they don't know what i'm talking
                                                  about. it's insane, but true.



                                                  (_seb_) wrote:
                                                  > Michael Fesser wrote:
                                                  >> .oO(courtney (n h c))
                                                  >>
                                                  >>> really?? yeah, that must be what happened. maybe my Thunderbird was
                                                  >>> acting up. i just clicked "reply" like i always do!
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>> sorry about that. :)
                                                  >>
                                                  >> No problem. JFTR here's the second one (the first one was almost the
                                                  >> same, just little differences), obviously a reply to my posting:
                                                  >>
                                                  >>> yeah, you make good points. it's possible that being around stupid
                                                  >>> people all day is clouding my judgment. you assume most people know
                                                  >>> you can go back to a specific page using the back button, i assume
                                                  >>> most people don't even know about the back button (that's an
                                                  >>> exaggeration, but you probably get my point.)
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>> but i will consider doing things differently in the future. i think
                                                  >>> it actually depends on the situation. there are times when i don't
                                                  >>> see the need to open a new window, but others where it really does
                                                  >>> seems like the best option.
                                                  >>>
                                                  >>> oh, and that alert, there was text on the page indicating that the
                                                  >>> link opened a new site, but some people still weren't getting it,
                                                  >>> and it was causing issues. i think sometimes some people just don't
                                                  >>> see stuff unless you shove it in their face!
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Micha
                                                  >
                                                  > most people don't know the difference between the browser address bar
                                                  > and google's search bar. they just type the url into google's search
                                                  > bar, and if you tell them "no, the browser's address bar" say don't
                                                  > understand and think you're a geek. Which we are all on this forum.
                                                  > The web will never be strict and should never be strict, because
                                                  > people are not (and should not) be supposed to be geeks to use it or
                                                  > MAKE it.
                                                  > Long live target="_blank"!
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  • 22. Re: must I use frames for this?
                                                    Level 7
                                                    Michael Fesser wrote:
                                                    > .oO((_seb_))
                                                    >
                                                    >> there's nothing wrong with opening a new browser window.
                                                    >
                                                    > It's just your own opinion. Not everyone thinks like that, which is why
                                                    > there will never be a final solution in such discussions.
                                                    >
                                                    >> target="_blank" may be deprecated or even "invalid" in strict HTML, it
                                                    >> will still be one of the most usefull features of the web 20 years from
                                                    >> now.
                                                    >
                                                    > For me it's one of the most stupid, annoying and HTML-abusing features
                                                    > (same as frames, where the 'target' attribute comes from). Because of
                                                    > that I will _never_ use it on my own sites. For me the drawbacks far
                                                    > outweigh the benefits, if there are any at all.
                                                    >
                                                    > A while ago I even thought about setting up a local filter proxy to
                                                    > automatically remove 'target' attributes from all the pages I visit.
                                                    > Meanwhile at least Firefox has an option to ignore it, hopefully other
                                                    > browsers will follow.
                                                    >
                                                    > But this is just my opinion on that. YMMV, of course.
                                                    >
                                                    > Micha

                                                    I *almost* never use target blank. I know how it can be annoying. I also know some scenarios where
                                                    it makes perfect sense to use it. For example:
                                                    My site has a coherent navigation, so of course pages open in the same window. But I want to show
                                                    the user a demo site within my site. The demo site has its own navigation. The user can browse
                                                    through the demo site (that's the purpose of it, as a demo). After browsing a while, how many users
                                                    will know to hit the back button 10 times to go back to where they came from (my main site)? very
                                                    few. How many will know to look in their history to go back to the main site? almost none. So I open
                                                    this demo site in a new browser window, as a favor to the user so he/she does not get lost and I
                                                    don't loose them. In some situations, average users get easily lost and confused. In some (rare)
                                                    situations, opening a new window does them a favor.
                                                    Being against target blank by principle is not a fair or reasonable stance in my opinion, even if I
                                                    agree that most of the time it is an annoyance because it it used where it shouldn't.


                                                    --
                                                    seb (@webtrans1.com)

                                                    high-end web design: http://webtrans1.com

                                                    Sign-up for a free beta test of SiteLander, an ingenious website-builder:
                                                    http://webtrans1.com/sitelander/

                                                    music: http://myspace.com/popmodelberlin
                                                    • 23. Re: must I use frames for this?
                                                      Level 7
                                                      (_seb_) wrote:
                                                      > Michael Fesser wrote:
                                                      >> .oO((_seb_))
                                                      >>
                                                      >>> there's nothing wrong with opening a new browser window.
                                                      >>
                                                      >> It's just your own opinion. Not everyone thinks like that, which is why
                                                      >> there will never be a final solution in such discussions.
                                                      >>
                                                      >>> target="_blank" may be deprecated or even "invalid" in strict HTML, it
                                                      >>> will still be one of the most usefull features of the web 20 years from
                                                      >>> now.
                                                      >>
                                                      >> For me it's one of the most stupid, annoying and HTML-abusing features
                                                      >> (same as frames, where the 'target' attribute comes from). Because of
                                                      >> that I will _never_ use it on my own sites. For me the drawbacks far
                                                      >> outweigh the benefits, if there are any at all.
                                                      >>
                                                      >> A while ago I even thought about setting up a local filter proxy to
                                                      >> automatically remove 'target' attributes from all the pages I visit.
                                                      >> Meanwhile at least Firefox has an option to ignore it, hopefully other
                                                      >> browsers will follow.
                                                      >>
                                                      >> But this is just my opinion on that. YMMV, of course.
                                                      >>
                                                      >> Micha
                                                      >
                                                      > I *almost* never use target blank. I know how it can be annoying. I also
                                                      > know some scenarios where it makes perfect sense to use it. For example:
                                                      > My site has a coherent navigation, so of course pages open in the same
                                                      > window. But I want to show the user a demo site within my site. The demo
                                                      > site has its own navigation. The user can browse through the demo site
                                                      > (that's the purpose of it, as a demo). After browsing a while, how many
                                                      > users will know to hit the back button 10 times to go back to where they
                                                      > came from (my main site)? very few. How many will know to look in their
                                                      > history to go back to the main site? almost none. So I open this demo
                                                      > site in a new browser window, as a favor to the user so he/she does not
                                                      > get lost and I don't loose them. In some situations, average users get
                                                      > easily lost and confused. In some (rare) situations, opening a new
                                                      > window does them a favor.
                                                      > Being against target blank by principle is not a fair or reasonable
                                                      > stance in my opinion, even if I agree that most of the time it is an
                                                      > annoyance because it it used where it shouldn't.
                                                      >
                                                      >

                                                      And, myself as a user, I sometimes appreciate a new window, for example when I'm on a site that has
                                                      a huge list of links going to other sites, sites within which I may navigate for a while. I find it
                                                      much more convenient to know that the list, that is the underlying reason for my visiting these
                                                      sites, STAYS there behind the new window. I find it very convenient. Maybe it is more convenient on
                                                      a Mac, because windows on a mac are not full-screen and stack up in a way that is visually more
                                                      comprehensive than on a PC (when you're used to it). I sometimes like to have 2 windows so I can see
                                                      part of the content of each and compare things... well there are MANY situations where new windows
                                                      make perfect sense to me (even more so than new tabs).

                                                      --
                                                      seb (@webtrans1.com)

                                                      high-end web design: http://webtrans1.com

                                                      Sign-up for a free beta test of SiteLander, an ingenious website-builder:
                                                      http://webtrans1.com/sitelander/

                                                      music: http://myspace.com/popmodelberlin