26 Replies Latest reply on Jan 31, 2010 5:25 PM by kishoreda-RrOFau

    DV vs HD

    kishoreda-RrOFau Level 1

      Windows Vista 64

      PPro CS3

       

      is it a good idea to record HD video, do all editing in HD

      and then transfer the file into a DV AVI

       

      for Internet I know its good to have it in HD, but our satellite channels plays only DV AVI.

      so do you think its good idea to record everything in HD , do editing in HD and convert final output back to DV AVI

       

      I must have the final output in standard definition !

      Thanks !!

        • 1. Re: DV vs HD
          Harm Millaard Level 7

          Easier, faster and more convenient to do the downrezzing in camea and edit only in DV for output to SD. Record in HD, but do the editing in SD. You will have the original material in HD for the future.

          • 2. Re: DV vs HD
            shooternz Level 6

            I think its a good idea /workflow  (assuming your HD camera is better quality than your DV camera and not some weird hybrid consumer format / codec that will give you editing grief)

            • 3. Re: DV vs HD
              kishoreda-RrOFau Level 1

              Ok thanks Harm and Shootrenz

               

              Well, I have a Panasonic HD U110

              which has the ability to switch or record in HD or DV . I can record in both formats.

              But I am more concerned about the correct way to convert it back to SD

               

              Harm as you mentioned , I can record in HD , do all editing in SD and make my final output SD !  is that about correct ?

               

              So, you are saying I can drag and drop the HD footage on the timeline and make the final output SD ?

               

              Thanks.

              • 4. Re: DV vs HD
                Harm Millaard Level 7

                I'm not familiar with your specific camera, but I know that a lot of Sony HDV and Canon HDV cameras allow for downconverting HD material to SD format. If you have that opportunity, I suggest you use that and capture with Scenalyzer instead of with PR. Check you camera manual for that capability.

                • 5. Re: DV vs HD
                  Huntrex Level 2

                  Harm Millaard wrote:

                   

                  I'm not familiar with your specific camera, but I know that a lot of Sony HDV and Canon HDV cameras allow for downconverting HD material to SD format.

                  Harm, there is one big disadvantage to that workflow. The in camera HD to SD downsampling is very poor compared to actually shooting in the desired resolution, SD. I have done vigorous testing on this subject with the Canon XH A1s and the results are conclusive. The videos shot shot in SD mode far surpassed in sharpness, clarity and overall quality compared to being shot in HD and downconverting to SD in camera. But if the HD version will be needed if the future, this may be the only easy option.

                  • 6. Re: DV vs HD
                    kishoreda-RrOFau Level 1

                    Thanks Harrm.

                    I think I got a bit more confused here

                    Scenalyzer is just a program with real time scene detection, that let's you capture video ! is that about right ?

                    I also have another program , which let me capture HD video.

                    but my question was that , inorder to get a better quality i am planning to shoot my videos in HD format, now once that I have the footage in HD format, what is the correct way to deal with that HD footage, capture the footage in HD , now Ppro will detect HD video file on its timeline ?

                    • 7. Re: DV vs HD
                      shooternz Level 6

                      I am not sure one needs to "down convert" to SD

                      .

                      Using HD in a SD timeline (or even a SD Comp in AEFX) is basically a  crop or centre extraction from the HD frame.

                       

                      The gain from shooting true HD in a decent HD camera is the larger sensor (and maybe superior optics) than a SD camera... providing a higher quality original image and possibly a better color space  ie 4:2:1 or 4:2:2

                       

                      I have never done any comparison tests but that is how I have succesfully managed broadcast SD from HD (720p)  sources in the past.   Now I only do HD  to HD.

                       

                      As a cameraman ... I have the theory that the better the quality of the orginal image (photographic) , carries through the workflow .

                      • 8. Re: DV vs HD
                        Harm Millaard Level 7

                        An alternative may be to shoot in HD, edit in HD and export to MPEG I frame and transcode with HC to SD MPEG2.

                        • 9. Re: DV vs HD
                          kishoreda-RrOFau Level 1

                          Shooternz wrote : I am not sure one needs to "down convert" to SD

                           

                          well, Shooternz our satellite companies can air only windows AVI, .mov and mpeg format videos , they don't have the ability to play HD video in a HD environments , they might be able to play the HD videos , but their system is not set up to broadcast in HD.

                           

                          Harm , I know for sure that from now on I have shoot my videos in HD mode (using panasonic HD U110 Camera). for internet I know its gonna look good, but I was more concerned when I send the videos for broadcasting to these satellite channels , they don't have the HD enviorments , like I mentioned I can give them in window AVI, .MOV or MPEG formats.

                           

                          so if I shoot in HD , do editing in HD enviorments and make my final output window AVI SD is that gonna be better , than shooting in SD and doing everything in SD.

                           

                          Thanks !

                          • 10. Re: DV vs HD
                            shooternz Level 6

                            I was suggesting using a "centre extraction".

                             

                            This means using a SD part of the HD image.    4:3 section out of the 16:9 frame.

                             

                            You can use 16:9 in a 4:3 timeline then output whatever your station requires.

                            or ..

                            you could export a 16:9 from  a Prempro HD seq then drop it into a 4:3 Comp in AEFX and export a SD from there.

                             

                            BTW: Why not do some tests of your own with your cameras and your NLE?

                             

                            Also - does your station broadcast anamorphic?  ie FHA

                            • 11. Re: DV vs HD
                              kishoreda-RrOFau Level 1

                              Ok Thanks buddy !

                               

                              well, here is the situation.

                              The project is a music video about 5 mins long.

                              here is what I have been doing , shooting in 4:3 pixle ratio , then I capture the footage in SD using PPro

                              then I create a 16:9 48khz project with PPro or AE  CS3 and then  I import all video , scale them back to fit the safe zone properly.

                              after adding FXs and transitions , then I export to movie , which creates an AVI for windows.

                               

                              Now I am more concerned about creating HD videos , which plays much cleaner and with higher resolution on the Internet.

                               

                              I guess my question is very simple here its :

                               

                              If record in HD and do all editing in HD and make my final output SD, is that gonna be better than shooting in SD , editing in SD and final output back to SD ?  (window AVI or MPEG or .MOV)

                               

                              Thanks !

                              • 12. Re: DV vs HD
                                shooternz Level 6

                                My original answer stands.  It is better to shoot HD all other things considered.

                                 

                                 

                                I dont understand part of your last post though.  Why did you shoot SD then edit in a 16:9 sequence after scaling back?

                                 

                                Also... why not shoot HD (16:9) then letterbox it for broadcast.

                                 

                                You did not say whether the station broadcasts SD anamorphic.  ...What happens when you view their broadcast on a 16:9 TVC?

                                • 13. Re: DV vs HD
                                  kishoreda-RrOFau Level 1

                                   

                                  HD                VIDEO RECORDING

                                  Recording media

                                  2x SDHC memory card                Class 6

                                  Video recording

                                  Video codec: MPEG2                Long GOP

                                  File format: Quick                time format for Final Cut Pro/ISO base media file format

                                  Recording mode

                                  60 Hz setting: HQ mode:1920 x                1080/59.94i, 29.97p, 23.98p,

                                  1440 x 1080/59.94i,                1280 x 720/59.94p, 29.97p, 23.98p

                                  SP mode: 1440 x                1080/59.94i, 1280 x 720/59.94p, 29.97p, 23.98p

                                  50Hz setting: HQ mode:1920 x                1080/50i, 25p

                                  1440 x 1080/50i,                1280 x 720/50p, 25p

                                  SP mode: 1440 x                1080/50i, 1280 x 720/50p, 25p

                                   

                                  The JVC Pro HD U110

                                  sorry not Panasonic.

                                   

                                  well, this is what I have for Camera JVC Pro HD U110

                                   

                                   

                                  I guess the reason I was shooting in 4:3 was because of the headroom, it gives more headroom , if I am not wrong.


                                  so, what settings would you recommend to shoot , to get a better quality .

                                   

                                   

                                  and as far as the station playing what kind of format , to be honest all they say "send us in Windows AVI , .MOV or MPEG

                                  and the station is not HD

                                  Galaxy 25 ku.

                                  • 14. Re: DV vs HD
                                    kishoreda-RrOFau Level 1

                                    BUMP!!

                                    • 15. Re: DV vs HD
                                      Harm Millaard Level 7

                                      I'll repeat my view on this:

                                       

                                      Shoot in HD. That gives you the material in HD quality if you need it in the future. For now there are two approaches to get the results in SD out of the door:

                                       

                                      1. The easy and fast solution without any noticeable quality hit: Downrez in camera to SD, capture and edit in SD and export.

                                       

                                      or

                                       

                                      2. Capture/ingest in HD, edit in HD, convert with AME to SD or use HD2SD approaches and export.

                                       

                                      You will be hard pressed to see any difference between the two approaches but the former one is easier and faster.

                                      • 16. Re: DV vs HD
                                        shooternz Level 6
                                        so, what settings would you recommend to shoot , to get a better quality .

                                         

                                         

                                        When you shoot tests with your camera you should find a setting that looks best and is editable on your system.

                                         

                                        I recommend shooting HD instead of SD with a centre extraction but you may find that workflow may not suit you for some reason.

                                         

                                        Your options for SD to the broadcaster  from HD source are either SD full frame ( centre extraction)  or SD letterbox (using the entire 16:9 frame you shot.).  Its all SD but it gives you the option.

                                         

                                        I still am interested to know what you see on a widescreen TV from this broadcaster?

                                        • 17. Re: DV vs HD
                                          kishoreda-RrOFau Level 1

                                          Harm wrote : 2. Capture/ingest in HD, edit in HD, convert with AME to SD or use HD2SD approaches and export.

                                           

                                          Ok buddy I will try that above !

                                          • 18. Re: DV vs HD
                                            kishoreda-RrOFau Level 1

                                            Shooternz wrote : I still am interested to know what you see on a widescreen TV from this broadcaster?

                                             

                                            To be honest with you the guys at the other end are so occupied that sometimes they don't even answer their call , but they say is "our channels in not HD , so send us the AVI, .MOV or MPEG in SD or formats.

                                             

                                            BUT one of my musician friends sent his HD video to the station, they played it, but looked like very poor quality , it was playing like a normal video but all that HD details were gone !

                                            • 19. Re: DV vs HD
                                              kishoreda-RrOFau Level 1

                                              One quick question for experts here !!

                                               

                                              Do I need a Mini Dv HD tape or any Mini DV tape will work when recording in HD mode .

                                               

                                              I did look at the manual , but didn't see anything !!

                                              My camera is a JVC HD U110.

                                               

                                              Thanks !

                                              • 20. Re: DV vs HD
                                                Powered by Design Level 4

                                                I know for me.

                                                 

                                                I have a Sony HVR Z1U

                                                 

                                                I just use cheap sony miniDV tape.

                                                 

                                                I tried there HDV tape and im sure its better but I get good results from the cheaper tape just fine.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                 

                                                GLenn

                                                • 21. Re: DV vs HD
                                                  kishoreda-RrOFau Level 1

                                                  Thanks borther !!

                                                   

                                                  Yeah I looked in to the manual of my camera , I didn't see anything as far using HD tapes , but a friend of mine told me , to use HD tapes when recording in HD mode , couple times I went to this place called Fry's Electronics where I live San francisco area  USA and saw some Mini HD tapes , but I was not sure to buy it or not !!

                                                  I don't have much experience with HD recording, so this new song of mine will be something totally new to record in HD , do all edits in HD and make the final output SD, I hope to get a good resault !!

                                                   

                                                  • 22. Re: DV vs HD
                                                    Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                    Two general rules about tapes:

                                                     

                                                    1. Stick to ONE type of tapes. Do not change types or brands. Different lubrication on different tapes lead to clogged heads and dropped frames.

                                                     

                                                    2. NEVER use a tape more than once. Keep the original as the original and do not use it for another shooting.

                                                    • 23. Re: DV vs HD
                                                      kishoreda-RrOFau Level 1

                                                      Yeah Thanks Harm !!

                                                       

                                                      But check this out !!

                                                      Can I use Standard Mini DV tapes to record HD footage on them...

                                                      like I said my camera JVC HD U110 allows you to record in SD and in HD mode !

                                                      • 24. Re: DV vs HD
                                                        Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                        Yes you can without problems. In the beginning, HDV tapes were difficult to find and very expensive, so I continued using the standard Sony DV tapes (with chip) that I had always used on VX2100/PD150/170 when I started with the Z1. I have never experienced problems. Now however I use the HDV-63 tapes, after a good head cleaning. I haven't found any noticeable difference in quality.

                                                        • 25. Re: DV vs HD
                                                          Ann Bens Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                          Harm Millaard wrote:

                                                           

                                                          Two general rules about tapes:

                                                           

                                                          1. Stick to ONE type of tapes. Do not change types or brands. Different lubrication on different tapes lead to clogged heads and dropped frames.

                                                          Sony white paper on tapes.

                                                          http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/mkt/recmedia/solutions/hdvtapelube.pdf

                                                          • 26. Re: DV vs HD
                                                            kishoreda-RrOFau Level 1

                                                            Thanks Harm and Ann!!

                                                             

                                                            Looks like you used more of Sony's camera Harm ?

                                                            Harm I tell you, I have done shooting with JVC , Panasonics, Canon and few more but Sony honestly beats them all by far (my personal experience)

                                                             

                                                            I used PD150 and PD 170 , loved it

                                                            some people call them "Low lights or No lights"   meaning even if your lighting system is weak, still does a great job, quality-wise I don't compare them with any cameras out there within that price range !!

                                                             

                                                            I guess that's one of the reasons I am trying to shoot in HD and see if there is a different in quality , else I might go back to sony !!