17 Replies Latest reply on Feb 1, 2010 6:45 AM by the_wine_snob

    cannot render audio fade and/or transition and/or title


      I am at my wits end and ready to blow up the computer on this one.


      I have about a dozen
      DV-AVI clips, captured from a Sony camcorder via Firewire.  I am editing them into 7 scenes.  I tried this with the first two scenes and I did a test Burn to File, viewed the VOB in Windows Media Player and all worked well.  I then added 5 more scenes, all with the same transition recipe between scenes, did another Burn to File and found that past the first two scenes, everything was black.  WMP showed video playing, but it was just solid black past the first two scenes.


      I scoured the forum looking for clues and hours later I have absolutely no idea what is going on.   Here are my specs and what I have tried.  I also attached a screen shot showing the 3 areas on my timeline that show different states of rendering (or non-rendering).


      Computer specs: PreE8, Win7 64bit, intel i7, ATI card, 6 GB RAM, 400+GB free HD

      DV-AVI clips, some with the In and Out points trimmed a few seconds.

      I added to each clip Audio Fade In and Fade Out.

      Between each clip is the following: Dip to Black, Title, Dip to Black

      I added a Menu Marker to each title.  They all appear on the menu as they should.

      Background rendering is OFF.


      I am still new to PreE so I still don't quite understand the whole rendering thing.  But as near as I can tell, that is the heart of the problem, but I cannot for the life of me see how to fix it.  As seen on my screen shot, the first two transions are rendered green.  Now skip ahead to the fourth transition and it is red.  Zooming in, the red goes from the start of the audio fade out of the previous clip, through the title, then stops at the start of the next clip.  So I thought it is a transition, the title, menu marker or the audio fade out causing a problem.  however, even when I removed ALL these elements from between and on the 2nd and 3rd clips (the third transition) it is STILL red!  And yes I am pressing the Enter key to render.  There are no effects, keyframes, or anything on the adjacent clips and it won't render.  The only thing I noticed is now the unrendered part is the first 4 seconds of the later clip.


      Why on earth do the first two transitions work, but the rest won't?  Why won't it render after I removed everything except the plain DV-AVI clips?

        • 1. Re: cannot render audio fade and/or transition and/or title
          the_wine_snob Level 9

          Don't touch a thing on your Timeline. All is good, as it is.


          If you look at the top of the Timeline Ruler, the WAB (Work Area Bar) is set to just the first two "scenes." When you hit Enter, to Render, it will ONLY Render the area under the WAB. It is also very likely that you have just Exported your WAB too.


          To quickly get the WAB to include the entire Timeline, hit the \ (Backslash) key, to zoom out to the min. and include the entire Timeline. In the middle of the WAB is a little block - Dbl-click on that to expand the WAB to include everything. Hit Enter, and your Transitions will quickly Render. Note: this is not necessary for the next step, but let's test it here. Now, when you go to Export/Share via Burn to Folder, make sure that the Export WAB is not checked. Even though it won't matter now, make sure to check the "Entire Project," so that this does not happen again. Wait for the Burn to Folder to complete and then test the resulting VOB.


          Good luck,



          • 2. Re: cannot render audio fade and/or transition and/or title
            the_wine_snob Level 9

            Here is a look at the WAB:



            Also, so that you are not confused by the term Render, here's a bit of background. Rendering (hitting the Enter key) is just for smooth playback. The need to Render is indicated by a red line at the top of the Timeline - 2 -3 spaces, in your case. Once Rendered, it will turn green. You footage shows no colored line, because it is DV-AVI and has not had any animation (Keyframes), or Effects added to it. Rendering is ONLY necessary if playback is not smooth.


            Now, when one uses Export/Share Burn to Disk, or Burn to Folder, you are invoking two processes. The first is Transcodeing, which is writing an MPEG-2 file, which is then wrapped into a VOB (the main, basic unit of a DVD-Video), and then this VOB, plus the IFO & BUP files are written to a VIDEO_TS folder on your disk, or in your chosen folder. Many people use Render and Transcode in an interchangeable fashion, but that is not really correct, especially with regard to Adobe programs.


            Hope that this helps,



            • 3. Re: cannot render audio fade and/or transition and/or title
              Margthecar2 Level 1


              That's all it was?!  I spent so much time on that?!   Now I feel like a fool for not posting earlier before I wasted so much time....

              I got it to render but I have to go and will have to try the Burn later and will report back.  Thanks for the quick reply.


              • 4. Re: cannot render audio fade and/or transition and/or title
                the_wine_snob Level 9

                As a side note, this just happened to me, right after I posted above. I was Exporting my Audio from several Sequences in PrPro to author a DVD in Encore. I had an 18 min. Timeline and when I started the Export, it completed in a flash. Uh-oh, must be the WAB. Sure enough, I had reset it to "measure" the Duration of a SmartSound soundtrack, and forgot to reset it. What timing! When reset, the Export then began to take MUCH longer, just as it should have.


                Good luck,



                • 5. Re: cannot render audio fade and/or transition and/or title
                  the_wine_snob Level 9

                  Do not feel foolish. See my little post, just above. It can happen to all of us, even when one is typing the answer on another computer!!!!


                  Sorry that you lost the time. That's why I started the first reply with "don't touch a thing."


                  BTW - your post, including the screen-cap, was great. I got all the necessary info, and just followed the "trail" that you provided. I only wish that more would do exactly as you did. It makes tracking down problems so much easier.


                  Good luck, and remember to stop by here at the first sign of any trouble, or if you have a question. Someone WILL be able to help you.



                  • 6. Re: cannot render audio fade and/or transition and/or title
                    Margthecar2 Level 1

                    Thanks Hunt for all your help, information and encouragement.  I have been able to return to my project (I saved the original with no changes) and was able to adjust the Work Area, Render and Burn to Folder (VOB).  When I tested the VOB, everything worked great!  So that was the problem.  Hurrah!

                    FYI--in PreE 8, the Burn to Folder option does NOT have a "Export Work Area" button, BUT the Share to Computer (mpeg) DOES, so that is something good to know.  Obviously the Burn to Folder option in PrE 8 defaults to burning the Work Area.  For my small project, the Work Area concept is not a necessary feature, but I can see how  for larger more complicated projects it is a good way to manage resources.


                    Now that I have had some time away and a couple glasses of wine :-) I can be more positive about what I learned.  In my travails,  I learned a lot about rendering, keyframes, the work area,  stumbled across a way to easily search only the Premiere Elements subforum, and a lot about stop markers (which seems to cause some black-screen problems when too near to menu markers).  So it was not a complete waste of time.  Oh yeah, and thanks for the compliment on my post info.  In my forum travels,  I also learned what information is asked for over and over to get more directly to an answer and just put it in the first go-round. And it paid off!


                    Well, back to the shop.  My husband thinks I am crazy for using this aggravating software (I used to use Windows Movie Maker) but I keep telling him, PreE 8 is like a Ferrari.  The problem is that it is temperamental and often broken down in the shop causing a lot of frustration.   But when it runs well, it is oh such a sweet thrill, so slick and powerful, that I just can't give it up and go back to the Honda.



                    • 7. Re: cannot render audio fade and/or transition and/or title
                      Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                      Well, actually Premiere Elements is more like a Hyundai. When it runs, it runs great -- but when it breaks, it breaks bad!


                      Windows MovieMaker is more like a Vespa.


                      Premiere Pro is more like a Ferrari!

                      • 8. Re: cannot render audio fade and/or transition and/or title
                        Margthecar2 Level 1




                        Premiere Pro is more like a Ferrari!


                        Ahhh, it all depends on your perspective Steve.  To you PROFESSIONALS maybe, PreP is the Ferrari, but to us casual home users PrePro is more like the Space Shuttle.  I ain't gonna fly that baby!


                        As a side note, I did open up a PDF tutorial on an audio issue I was having that was written for PrePro.  I did find the info I was looking for (i.e. what the &^%$ does "Render and Replace" mean), but I also got to see all sorts of way far out, Star Trek-like color audio profiles and tweaks and tips about noise removal and sound optimization that made me think I was on board the Enterprise.



                        • 9. Re: cannot render audio fade and/or transition and/or title
                          the_wine_snob Level 9

                          Glad that things are going well for the Project.


                          Everyday should be a learning process. The best days certainly are for me. I also am glad that the Audio article for PrPro was helpful. I do a lot of posts, that are basically for PrPro, and try to "fill in the blanks," for users of PrE. There are many parallels between the two programs, but often the exact terminology, or location, or even the exact function of something will differ. Poor Steve spends a great deal of time editing my replies, with gentle, "but Hunt, that is how it is in PrPro. For PrE, one must push the ______ button, but it's not under the ______ menu, it's under the ______ menu, and the name in PrE is _______ ." I actually use PrE more for replies and articles, than I do to edit, as I also have PrPro and it's my NLE of choice, 'cause I know it better, and it's much more like my old cine editing on a Moviola 8-plate machine. Even the physical layout of the Video & Audio is closer to what I used decades ago.


                          Much of the Audio editing is pretty similar between the two programs. Oh, there are some mechanical differences, and also more Audio Effects in PrPro, but still, they are similar.


                          Please nudge your husband, and let him know that you're going to stay with the Ferrari, and not going to take the Yugo out of the garage!


                          Glad that things are working well for you. If you are having crashing issues, there are very possibly things that can be done to improve the overall performance, and keep the Ferrari out of the garage. Here's one little tip, that works well for me. It's outlined in this ARTICLE.


                          Also, please do not hesitate to post of any issues. By using the style of your post here, all that info can be useful again. You are so far ahead of many, and just by reading others' posts, you picked up on what would be helpful. I only wish that more would do that little bit of reading first, so that no one has to play 20 Questions to get the basic info, just to start troubleshooting. Pat yourself on the back, as too many do not get it, even when we post articles on the types of info that is required, and seldom are forthcoming with that info, even when the specific requests are posted. Sometimes, I wonder if a few posters think they are dealing with "state secrets," or something.


                          Most of all, happy editing. Also, and you have my permission, maybe sweetly tell hubby that you think that you are ready for PrPro, just in time for your birthday...



                          • 10. Re: cannot render audio fade and/or transition and/or title
                            the_wine_snob Level 9
                            tips about noise removal and sound optimization


                            I normally use Adobe Audition, a wonderful audio-editing program. It's quite powerful at noise removal and sound optimization, but is all manual. Oh, there are some Presets, and some rather standard operations, but it's mostly trial - listen - error - listen, and on an on.


                            Here's a tip on a little "find" that I made some years ago. I had purchased one of the Magix sound editor/creation programs. It came bundled with a free copy of something called Magix Audio Cleaning Lab. I looked at it, decided that it was rather a toy (hey, I used the professional Audition - right?), but did install it anyway. It languished for almost a year, unused. One day I have a very tough piece of music, and I was pulling my hair out. I'd correct one thing, but really mess up elsewhere. Things were just not working well. My ears were bleeding, and I was running out of mouse clicks. I was about to just live with my best efforts, but would never have been satisfied. I spotted the icon for ACL on my Desktop. "What the heck," I though, "why not run my original file through that?" I launched the program and found the File>Open, and then navigated to the original copy of my file. I did not change anything, and just accepted the defaults. I hit OK, and waited. The little program chugged along for a few moments, and then finished. I previewed the result, and was floored. With just the defaults, the results were better than what I had spent an entire day doing!!!! The "toy," was a pretty serious little "toy." With a few extra tweaks back in Audition, the horrible audio was nearly perfect. The only complaint that I have with ACL is my typical complaint on Magix products - lack of documentation, and a virtually non-existent forum. One must figure out the program on their own, but remember that the defaults were pretty danged good. It's inexpensive, and I would gladly pay 3x that price. Since my copy was in a free bundle, I obviously got the "deal of the century." I've seen it at Fry's (Western US computer/electronics store) on sale for ~ US$12.00. I pick up copies for my friends who do audio work. Some are pros in the business, so they look at me funny. However, each has been thankful and surprised, just as I was.


                            That's the "Tip of the Day."



                            • 11. Re: cannot render audio fade and/or transition and/or title
                              Margthecar2 Level 1

                              Hi Hunt,

                              Thanks for the info on crash prevention.  I will check it out later.  I did have an issue about a month ago with crashes (another thread and another Project) which was likely some combination of being totally new to PreE, video from a still camera, too large JPGS and a conflict between the GPU transitions and my ATI graphics card.  Between the forum and help from the PrE Help team in Seattle (I got on their radar somehow), that was resolved and I think I have figured out a workflow for that project that will work.  After a little more testing, I will post my results to the original thread.


                              Now the project in THIS thread is a straight DV-AVI and I have had not a singe crash, not one.  In fact, PreE8 has been SO stable for this project that I have almost stopped flinching everytime I press a button to switch to a new task and expect it to crash.  It gives me hope for my other project, which is quite a bit more complicated than this one.


                              Thanks also for the info on the Magix ACL.   I will check it out.  I switched to PreE from WMM mainly for two things--green screen (yet to try) and more audio capabilities.  I LOVE the mixing board.  It is just what I need to do what I want to do and there are oh so many tracks!  My sound recording conditions are often poor and I have not had much luck cleaning up my sound with Audacity.  I will see if the Magix can do any better.  If not, I will embrace the "home movie" sound I have and pretend it was intentional .


                              One last question--what is NLE?  I see it a lot and cannot figure it out.  Is there an acronym list in the FAQs?  If not, maybe there should be.....



                              • 12. Re: cannot render audio fade and/or transition and/or title
                                Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                                NLE means non-linear editing. It's shorthand for any computer-based video editing (as opposed to tape-based editing, which is linear, since you have to wind the tape back and forth to edit it).


                                Marg, have you checked out my free Basic Training tutorials for Premiere Elements on Muvipix.com? They should get you up and running with the program.


                                For subscribers to the site I also have an intermediate training series, lots of tips and tutorials and a series of books for Premiere Elements and Photoshop Elements (available at Muvipix and on Amazon.com).

                                • 13. Re: cannot render audio fade and/or transition and/or title
                                  nealeh Level 5

                                  the_wine_snob wrote:

                                  The only complaint that I have with ACL is my typical complaint on Magix products - lack of documentation, and a virtually non-existent forum

                                  Don't forget the unusual look and feel that Magix seem to apply to all their products! The major problem with the forums is that there is no pool of end-user expertise to help, which is a shame.


                                  I still like their products for intermediate steps in my workflow - especially the batch export of each scene as DV-AVI II.


                                  Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your children

                                  • 14. Re: cannot render audio fade and/or transition and/or title
                                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                                    Yes, the GUI's (Graphical User Interfaces) can be a bit odd.


                                    As for the fora, they seem to be mainly for users to post their accomplishments. That is not a bad thing, as there can be some neat stuff there, but when one is looking for some help getting to the mechanics of the programs, it is a bit frustrating.


                                    I even had major issues, when contacting their Tech Support. At first, I thought that it was because I was writing in US_EN, but then tried Google Translations to German, and got the same useless answers. I do not think that anyone ever read a line that I typed, and have a "canned reply," that goes out, regardless of what the question(s) was/were. I finally gave up and just used brute force to try and get what I needed. I know that the programs are far more capable, but learning how to use the danged things, and set them up for smooth workflow is beyond my comprehension. That most of the error messages are in GR, regardless of the installed language, does not help me.



                                    • 15. Re: cannot render audio fade and/or transition and/or title
                                      Margthecar2 Level 1

                                      Thanks Steve.

                                      I looked at the Basic Tutorials and I have figured that stuff out already for the most part, although I bet if I had seen the tutorials FIRST it would have been a much less painful process.  Oh well.  I saw a reference to your book earlier and checked it out.  Now that's what I need!  I am a book reference kind of person.  I have already ordered a copy and look forward to thumbing its non-virtual pages.


                                      • 16. Re: cannot render audio fade and/or transition and/or title
                                        Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                                        And, of course, thanks for supporting the book, Marg! Hope it answers most of your questions!

                                        • 17. Re: cannot render audio fade and/or transition and/or title
                                          the_wine_snob Level 9

                                          I completely understand, being a "book person" myself. Here is an DISCUSSION in the Lounge, reflecting on some thoughts on how some learn best.


                                          Good luck,




                                          PS - I do recommend Steve's books