16 Replies Latest reply on Feb 2, 2010 3:58 AM by the lenny

    it forces me to use css

    the lenny

      another cs4-newbie question

       

      in several cases when i try to design a page using tables (sorry), it writes the attributes to my css file without asking me.

       

      i dont waqnt to design using css, just the good old <td bgcolor="red">

      how do i stop the usage of css?

       

      and it doesn't always happen.

       

      how does cs4 decides when to do it and when not to

       

      thanks

       

      lenny

        • 1. Re: it forces me to use css
          Ben M Adobe Community Professional

          This thread should provide the answer you are looking for:

           

          http://forums.adobe.com/thread/440748

          • 2. Re: it forces me to use css
            the lenny Level 1

            what a miserable decision by adobe.

            i have hundreds of websites from the early days of dreamweaver and ultradev.

             

            how dare they deprive me of that option???

             

            they have to do what i want, not me doing what they want !

             

            if i want to use blinking animated gif ....

            who are they to decide that i can no longer use these working methods.

             

            seems like impudence

             

            my god, i must run now to google to search for alternative. oh sorry, i forgot, no alternative. notepad? visual studio? hhhmmm ...

             

            very dissapointing and annoying

            • 3. Re: it forces me to use css
              Nancy OShea Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              Adobe isn't forcing you to use CSS.  The World Wide Web Consortium made that decision for all of us way back in 1998. Style (CSS) separate from content (HTML).

               

              If you want to live in the 1990's, keep coding your pages with HTML styles in DW CS3, DW8 or 2004 MX.  They won't stop working.

               

               

              Nancy O.
              Alt-Web Design & Publishing
              Web | Graphics | Print | Media  Specialists
              www.alt-web.com/
              www.twitter.com/altweb
              www.alt-web.blogspot.com

              • 4. Re: it forces me to use css
                John Waller Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                Put yourself in Adobe's shoes.

                 

                For years they weathered withering criticism about DW not promoting best formatting practices and encouraging widespread use of CSS for all formatting and making it as easy as possible via the DW UI.

                 

                Steadily things changed as HTML formatting options (buttons, toolbars etc) disappeared from the UI and CSS options replaced them.

                 

                CS4 is the most complete DW release to promote best practice formatting via CSS.

                 

                Adobe now weathers criticism for not making it easy for users to continue using decade old, deprecated coding practices on ancient websites.

                 

                Update your old websites and enjoy the best that DW has to offer including ease of maintenance.

                • 5. Re: it forces me to use css
                  370H55V Level 4

                  Nancy makes a good point about the WW Consortium.

                   

                  They also set standards for SEO (that's Search Engine Optimization), and if you have a "non-compliant" site that you built for... say, a business, they wonder why no one knows they even have a site, when they paid you good money to build it for them. Likely it's the out of date code and lack of things like a good XHTML ID in the header, that keep search engines from finding it.

                  • 6. Re: it forces me to use css
                    lenny-m

                    don't understand

                    • 7. Re: it forces me to use css
                      the lenny Level 1

                      Dear all

                       

                      I  understand everything.

                       

                      but why force me?

                       

                      why can't adobe leave a button: "retarded people click here" ?

                       

                      they hurt my business by eliminating this option (using old habits).

                       

                      it's lovely that adobe advance with time. but if  ancient dinosaures like me have hundreds of website to do maintanance, it's really not wise to tell me to update them.

                       

                      maybe  the client doesn't want to update them? maybe he doesn't want to pay?

                      maybe he 's happy with its seo? (first page in google thanks to age?)

                       

                      i didn't complain about the new features, i complain about removing the old ones.

                       

                      why force me?

                       

                      and to nancy, did you try to install old versions of DW on win7? i did.

                       

                      it doesn't work.

                       

                      thanks

                       

                      lenny

                      • 8. Re: it forces me to use css
                        John Waller Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        I'm curious why you update to Windows 7 and DW CS4 but you don't update your coding practices.

                         

                        Windows 7 has evolved enormously, become more secure, dropped features, added new ones and forced change upon you. DW likewise.

                         

                        No-one's forcing you to change.

                         

                        If you want to keep maintaining your ancient websites with outdated coding practices dating back to the 90s, perhaps keep a Win2K computer handy with DW MX installed.

                         

                        If you want the latest and greatest version of DW, accept that as the web changes and coding practices change, DW will do likewise.

                         

                        Keeping legacy code inside DW to cater for outdated coding practices is not feasible. It clutters and bloats the codebase, hampers performance and adds unnecessary engineering costs to each development cycle.

                        • 9. Re: it forces me to use css
                          370H55V Level 4

                          "I'm curious why you update to Windows 7 and DW CS4 but you don't update your coding practices."

                           

                          Excellent point John!

                           

                          It's like the guy down the street trying desperately to stuff an 8-track player into the dash of his 2010 Prius.

                          • 10. Re: it forces me to use css
                            vwgn Level 1

                            actually I am glad guys like lenny still insist on using outdated practices and styling with html tags... I have been making alot of money re-doing frontpage and html table sites to valid css sites for the reasons already listed here. Nothing makes you look like a hero more than the last guy taking a week to make a color change on a big site and you can revamp the site in less time than he took to make one change and do subsequent small updates with a 24 hour turn around. Keep up the hard work lenny

                            • 11. Re: it forces me to use css
                              the lenny Level 1

                              hi all

                               

                              i'm glad everybody enjoys insulting and patronising, but you don't listen.

                               

                              we build many websites, with latest technologies. ajax, jquerry, not to mention .net, and other RNT (= ridiculous name throwing)

                              you don't listen: i say that sometimes i need the old features.

                              it's called backward compatibility

                               

                              do you all approve eliminating backwards compatibility?

                               

                              you are all so proud of the fact that you use css.

                              i know where the DIV button is.

                               

                              but sorry, i still sometimes need the old features.

                               

                              i think it's strange to say: hey go and rebuild hundreds of sites because dreamweaver has changed.

                              try to say that to hundreds of clients.

                               

                              i'll repeat: i'm not complaining against new features, i think it's wrong to delete old features while loyal customers sometimes still need them.

                              not for building new sites but for maintainance of old sites

                               

                              sorry you dont listen.

                               

                              lenny

                              • 12. Re: it forces me to use css
                                John Waller Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                We hear you Lenny.

                                 

                                If you need to maintain ancient websites, use DW MX on Win 2K.

                                 

                                It's not feasible for Adobe to keep legacy code inside DW for the minority to maintain archaic sites with outdated features and formatting methods. There would be howls of protest about code bloat and DW being behind the times.

                                 

                                For one thing, these forums would remain filled with questions from newbies who would use the legacy features out of ignorance that they should be using CSS. I for one am happy to never see another question on nested tables or spacer gifs. These days this forum is filled with CSS questions, as it should be.

                                • 13. Re: it forces me to use css
                                  martcol Level 4

                                  the lenny wrote:

                                   

                                  hi all

                                   

                                  i'm glad everybody enjoys insulting and patronising, but you don't listen.

                                   


                                  Not everyone Lenny!

                                   

                                  For what it's worth, I think you have a point but, it's not going to budge Adobe, is it?

                                   

                                  I think that John makes a fair point too that on these forums, you see loads of problems with sites built using tables and when you look at them it's often a code jungle that if the page had been built using CSS....

                                   

                                  Well, you know all that too.

                                   

                                  Best of luck

                                   

                                  Martin

                                  • 14. Backward compatibility
                                    polar_bare Level 4

                                    You want backard compatibility and I do understand what you are saying. Maybe it's time to go to these people and tell them they need a major overhall of their websites, and tell them why.

                                     

                                    You have to sell the idea.

                                     

                                    What happens when their website no longer renders because the majority of the browsers no longer support the outdated coding of the pages. IE5 is still around, but barely. This is true of all older browsers. This is a selling point for you. The old technology will be around for a while, but with time, they will go by the wayside.

                                     

                                    Like vwgn states earlier, old outdated sites are one core of his business. There will be a point when your customer base looks elsewhere if you don't start selling the idea to them now.

                                     

                                    I do think that content and presentation should be seperated and CSS is good for us all.

                                     

                                    Jim

                                    • 15. Re: it forces me to use css
                                      David_Powers Adobe Community Professional

                                      the lenny wrote:

                                       

                                      i dont waqnt to design using css, just the good old <td bgcolor="red">

                                      how do i stop the usage of css?

                                      Perhaps you chose a bad example, but Dreamweaver CS4 does insert the bgcolor attribute into table cells. However, it doesn't do it any more for tables.

                                       

                                      I won't get into the fruitless debate about which coding standards you should use, but if you do have a particular reason for using deprecated code, every single attribute is available in the Tag Inspector (F9/Opt+Shift+F9). They're all there, deprecated and browser-specific ones alike.

                                       

                                      Another way to add attributes is to right-click the name of the tag in the Tag selector at the bottom of the Document window, and select Quick Tag editor from the context menu. That opens the tag in a tiny window. Press space, and all available attributes (including deprecated ones) appear as code hints.

                                       

                                      Adobe hasn't removed the ability to code in the old-fashioned way. It has just made it less obvious.

                                      • 16. Re: it forces me to use css
                                        the lenny Level 1

                                        thank you, thank you, thank you !!!

                                         

                                        you are a saint

                                         

                                        thanks

                                         

                                        Lenny