9 Replies Latest reply on Mar 1, 2010 3:28 PM by Ansury

    HTML 5

    DanFCarr Level 1

      Hello. I am an Illustrator/Animator with basic Actionscript, HTML, and CSS skills. I build graphics for online courses. For years I have used Flash to build animations with simple interactivity. My new co-workers do not like Flash. They tell me that many mobile devices do not support Flash, and since students increasingly access content on mobile devices, we should stop using Flash. They tell me that it can all be done with HTML 5.


      Using Flash, I am able to use vector art, bitmaps, video, etc. to build pretty much any interactive animation, and make it look exactly the way I want, with relative ease. I do not think that building these objects will be nearly as simple in HTML 5.


      Anyone in the same situation? I would like to know your thoughts. Are you worried that Flash will fade away? What do you plan to use instead?

        • 1. Re: HTML 5
          waterdad568 Level 3

          Your co-workers it seems have not done their homework. Adobe Flash Player Lite is specific to mobile devices, similar to a browser plugin or addon (that users have to dl to browser now btw) the user simply dl's flash lite and can certainly view swf content. Flash CS5 will also be able to produce and output directly for iPhone apps, and other desktop and mobile apps can be accomplished with Adobe Air. Mobile device Manf's are already developing rendering for many graphical apps currently used, and will only become more powerful, not less. Look at the iPad for example.


          So I'm not sure why you would move backwards from an integrated powerful RIA API to HTML5, not that HTML5 is a bad thing and is not needed, just not near as powerful and will require some other extra steps to reproduce what flash can, like extensive javascripting for example, again not a bad thing just more steps and more components, which means more complicated, which means more difficult to integrate with cross browser functionality and because of several platforms, much more difficult to debug.


          With more and more demand for graphically loaded and animated interactive content, let alone this generations appetite for graphically loaded apps, Flash is the answer in IMHO. Personally I bucked the heavily loaded graphic trend as long as I could, and was almost forced kicking and screaming away from predominantly HTML to Flash, simply because the client demand could not be produced without an app like Flash, and the demand for more and more interactive graphical content is growing, I would predict that some time in the near future, high demand graphical web based apps, (like video games almost) will dominate the online presence.


          Just one developers opinion, and you know what they are like.

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: HTML 5
            FlashTapper Level 1

            Yes, I think your colleauges were referring to the Iphone when they were talking about HTML 5 being the method of choice.

            There is one thing really annoying all Iphone and Ipod Touch users at this time and it is Apple's reluctance to allow the Flash Player onto their product (which Adobe have already built, tested and made ready for delivery).


            I never heard that Flash CS5 was going to be able to create content for Iphones but I would be very (delighted) interested to find out!


            Right now it seems Jobbs just wants to create his own version of the Flash Player instead so Apple further cements its control in digital media.


            Have no fear, Flash will and can never be abandoned....there are just too many people using it and too much support for it. It would be like gas stations refusing to sell us gasoline...it just won't happen.



            BTW - does anyone know when and where we can get our hands on HTML 5? Heard all this talk about it but have not SEEN anything....

            1 person found this helpful
            • 3. Re: HTML 5
              waterdad568 Level 3

              HTML 5 is the latest W3C standard specification for Hyper Text Markup Language code for the WWW, like HTML4, or XHTML1, it is not a program, simply a method.





              ... and heres a sneak peek at CS5



              • 4. Re: HTML 5
                carl schooff Level 3

                great question. with the announcement of the ipad this is a hot topic these days.


                a few points:


                • html5 is not an approved standard
                • it has limited and varied support among browsers
                    • a huge population (ie 6/7) users won't see your content properly
                • the only thing it does right now that everyone is harping on is allow you to add video to a page without a plugin like flash
                    • even this though is causing a stir as ms / apple / mozilla can't agree on what video format to support
                • there are 0 tools available to create the css animation everyone thinks is so great
                • watch this http://anthonycalzadilla.com/css3-ATAT/index.html (a css3 driven animation) and then notice how
                    • crummy it really is
                    • how annoying it would be to code that
                    • how much easier it would be to build in flash
                    • how much better it would look if built in flash
                    • how many more browsers would be able to see it

                there is going to be a tablet explosion soon and all these devices will be much cheaper than the ipad and support the "full internet". More mobile OSes will support flash. Flash isn't going away


                html 5 will never do: http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail51.html




                as a side note. jquery is very impressive and can do a lot of what flash is mostly used for: animated gallerys, rollover effects, expanding content and does it very very well. it is truly amazing what can be done with js and html but flash wins by letting virtually anyone become an animator and even an "app developer" with a very very short amount of tinkering.



                really done:)

                • 5. Re: HTML 5
                  waterdad568 Level 3

                  meg are you done? You sure?


                  Well said.

                  • 6. Re: HTML 5
                    DanFCarr Level 1

                    Thank you for this exchange, and the links. Strongbad is a great example. I was wondering if that sort of thing is possible outside of Flash. It would seem not.

                    • 7. Re: HTML 5
                      waterdad568 Level 3

                      If you really want to seal the Flash deal so to speak show your co-workers these also:




                      And as far as doing these and SB outside of Flash, sure, for Pixar, Disney, Industrial Light and Magic, and Cameron.

                      • 8. Re: HTML 5
                        FlashTapper Level 1

                        by jinkies, you're right! That animation was a complete pile of dog poo! Wouldn't even show in the two most commonly used browsers in the world!


                        Considering all the politics and lack of support currently for the HTML 5 standard - I'd be putting my money on Flash, and some people had best be getting off their HTML 5 soap box.

                        • 9. Re: HTML 5
                          Ansury Level 3

                          Oh, a great question.  This may not apply to you so much directly but it applies when defending your preferred platform (Flash).  HTML5 has been blessed by the web application hacking community as The Next Big Buzzword (supplementing the hell-spawned "AJAX").  It gets even worse than what has been said here (I believe, I only skimmed) if you add the RIA Flash application (Flex) developer's perspective--or any VM based dev tech such as Silverlight.  The view is no better from the RIA or enterprise RIA perspective.


                          • No Flash/Flex == no AMF.  (Rather they'll be stuck to JavaScript parsed bloated crap i.e. XML)  Good luck winning in speed benchmarks.
                          • HTML5 websites or RIAs mean AJAX hacks.  This forum uses AJAX and of course lots of slow JavaScript - Adobe had a flood of experts leave due to the problems with the forum software here on various browsers, and most major issues are still not fixed.  The technology is fragile, hard to maintain, and impossible to get working consistently across all browsers.  Flash has no such problems.
                          • W3C Candidate Recommendation stage during 2012, and W3C Recommendation in the year 2022 or later  (Also keep in mind it's just a standard, which means browsers may not implement it correctly or consistently. Based on their current track record...browser wars... it's not looking to change any time soon.)
                          • It's not ready for prime time.  Most certainly not ready for the business/enterprise environment.  It's far too new--the first initial draft isn't even complete! Sounds a little like electing to use beta stage software (even worse because this is just a standard) - bad idea under most circumstances.
                          • Tools - Yet to beat what you find in Flash or Flex.  Some 'frameworks' are making some inroads but it's an endless uphill battle against new browsers, new browser versions, and the competitive instincts of the browser vendors, and the products aren't so mature.
                          • Masses of "frameworks" - Splintering the development community.  Got a DOJO AJAX app?  GWT app?  Home grown AJAX framework?  Other?  Good luck finding an expert on your particular framework.  No such problem with Flash or Flex - everyone knows exactly what those mean (differences in Flex frameworks don't come close in complexity--only one target 'platform' and not 5+ dynamic browser platforms).
                          • Masses of "frameworks" which need constant updating - New browser gaining popularity?  You'll probably need to update your framework library to stay functional.  New version of a browser coming out?  Same deal, it can easily break such "frameworks", it happens all the time.  Even if it doesn't you still need to TEST.  This is all assuming your "framework support people" (most are teams working for free and could walk at any time) are still supporting your framework in a timely manner.  No such problems with Flash or Silverlight.


                          I could probably go on, but the horse is begging for mercy at this point I think, and I like animals so let's stop.


                          Here's someone else's take on HTML5, a non-Adobe perspective (to counter the cries of "oh they're just Flash people"), from a Silverlight developer.  Not sure I agree 100% with everything said (IE may not be most used browser etc) but it's an interesting read anyway:



                          • Yes, you can do a LOT of stuff with HTML5 + JS that Silverlight is good for. But HTML5 will only reach Candidate Recommendation status in 2012 - if Silverlight keeps the current pace, it will be at V7 by then.
                          • HTML5 will only get you approximately what Silverlight had at V1.0. A Canvas element, some video playback capabilites, and a Javascript programming model. Can you imagine how further advanced Silverlight 4 is at the moment?
                          • Actually, scratch that - the video quality and availability of HTML5 is a lot worse than what Silverlight has to offer. There is no DRM, no Smooth Streaming, not even full screen! No GPU acceleration either. Even the codec HTML5 has to support is not standardized! This results in Firefox 3.6 having only Theora decoder, and Youtube experimenting with HTML in H.264 (on the same day FF3.6 launched), only playable in approx. 4-5% of the world's browsers.
                          • Internet Explorer is still the most widely used browser on the web, and does not have HTML5. Currently, there are more Silverlight capable browsers (also Flash, obviously) browsing the web than HTML5 compatible ones. I don't think that in the next 3 years you will be able to create an HTML5 app and hope that at least 50% of the world's population can view it without switching browsers. (and remember: installing a plugin is a lot less hassle than switching to a new browser!)
                          • HTML5 will not be truly cross-browser standard for quite a long time, if ever. There are too many things that the browser developer can do as they wish - just think about the aforementioned video codec issue. There are too many little differences in each browser's Javascript implementation to make it really portable.
                          • The developer story: nothing in the HTML + JS world comes close to the awesome Visual Studio and Expression Blend tools. Javascript is cool for small apps, but cannot hold a candle to C# when it comes to serious development. Fighting with browser and OS incompatilities takes up a huge amount of time for any HTML website or web app - with Silverlight you don't have this.
                          • Just compare what the best HTML / Ajax company in the world (Google) did with maps, and what MS did to see the difference. Go tohttp://maps.google.com/ (watch out - the Streetview part is in Flash, not Ajax), and compare it to http://www.bing.com/maps/explore/. That is the difference I am talking about.


                          Of course he means (or should have meant) Flex/Flash rather than just Flash.  As for the GWT and other AJAX fanboys who I guess think browser compatibility problems are going to be a thing of the past (or won't be a drag on corporate bottom lines - haha), it makes you wonder what other wild fantasies they're envisioning for the future.  Next they'll come and tell us XML-based protocols are going to be as fast as AMF...