24 Replies Latest reply on Feb 12, 2010 7:06 PM by Peter Studt

    How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?

    theGadgetGuy Level 1

      In Premier Pro-CS4 am trying to do an overlay (Pic in Pic)  insert of a item that I am zooming in on with a Motion video effect by increasing the Scale parameter, but want to clip the size to remain fixed so that the inserted image always stays the same overlaid size even as it is being scaled larger..

       

      Using the Track Matte Key (or a garbage mask or clip mask) on the overlay image does not do what I want.  The resulting overlay still grows larger as the overlay image is zoomed in (ie, Scale size increased).  The matte seems to be zooming right along with the clip even though the matte scaling is never directly changed.

       

      There must be some way to get a fixed clip area, but I sure am stumped.  I've tried every trick I can think of.  It was easy in Sony Vegas, so it can't be hard here (just hidden from my obvious choices!).

       

      Can anyone help?

       

      Thanks :-)

        • 1. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
          shooternz Level 6

          Place your clip with the Garbage matte (vid2) above the clip (vid1) that you wish to zoom.

          • 2. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
            theGadgetGuy Level 1

            Thanks but unfortunately not the right answer for my situation.

             

            I am trying to zoom a vid2 clip with a Track Matte Key applied. The Matte is on vid3, above the vid2 clip that is being zoomed.

             

            The clip on vid1 is the background track and it does not zoom.

             

            Zooming the matted clip (on vid2) causes the clipped area to ALSO zoom, which is NOT what I desire.  Thus the Pic-in-Pic overlaying the vid1 background grows in size with the zoom.  I want it to stay fixed in size!

            • 3. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
              Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional

              Nest your PIP clip in a sequence, apply the Track Matte key to the sequence, then open the nested sequence and scale your clip in there.

               

              -Jeff

              • 4. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                theGadgetGuy Level 1

                Thanks.  That was a help although still the wrong answer, but it gave me the right idea.

                 

                One had to turn the clips (that were each zoomed in on) into a Sequence.

                 

                Then Matting that Sequence (which in itself remained at a constant Scale) with a clipping mask created the fixed size PIP I wanted.

                 

                You can't use a matte (as everyone has suggested) on a zoomed track because the result itself becomes scaled to larger size.  All the zooming must be done ahead of time (and turned into a sequence) which can then be masked.

                 

                Thanks all.  One way or another we got there!

                 

                 

                • 5. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                  Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional

                  That was a help although still the wrong answer, but it gave me the right idea

                  Did my method not work for you?  I did it here using a title as the matte and keying the sequence.

                   

                  As you discovered, there is usually more than one way to get things done in Pr.

                   

                  -Jeff

                  • 6. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                    theGadgetGuy Level 1

                    That is correct Jeff, the way suggested (at least as I understood it) did not work at all.

                     

                    Primarily because if you apply a matte mask to a Sequence and then scale the Sequence over time, the masked result ALSO scales.  The mask is tied to the image and grows/shrinks with it.

                     

                    One must do all scaling, make the result a sequence and then mask the sequence (with no more scaling adjustments)

                     

                    Secondly it would not work because I had 4 clips, each one of which was individually zoomed.  It would have been difficult to do that on a Sequence without some tight step functions on the (virtual) clip boundaries to jump to differing zoom levels.

                     

                    Thanks anyway for trying and you did reveal enough to give me the clues I needed to make it all work.

                     

                    Thanks again. 

                    • 7. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                      Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional

                      Thanks for taking the time to explain a little more about what your

                      setup was like.  I appreciate it.

                       

                      -Jeff

                      • 8. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                        shooternz Level 6

                        Can you post up an example somewhere  of what you actually  achieved?  (youtube / vimeo...)

                        • 9. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                          theGadgetGuy Level 1

                          shooternz -

                           

                          Rather than take the time to prep and post something, it is very easy to explain in words so that it is readily visualized.

                           

                          Imagine a small square positioned on top of and in the center of a background image.  With my result the video contained in the small square zooms in/out while the square remains exactly the same size (thus its image contents are clipped to exactly fit in the square at all times).

                           

                          If one tries to create a matted video to make the square image and then zooms the image, the matte will grow/shrink with the zoom effect and the square will thus change its size.

                           

                          One must do all the zooming first and capture it as a sequence which is then used with a matte to create the small square image.  Since the zooming was done to create the sequence images, the sequence can be used as is without any scaling effects, and thus the small square picture-in-picture remains a constant size.

                           

                          These images show the start/end

                          pip1.jpg pip2.jpg

                           

                          Note the zoomed image is trimmed to the same PIP box size as the original image.  If you try to zoom the top image with a matte to clip it the end result will look like the following (note the PIP box ends up being zoomed too)...

                          pip3.jpg

                           

                          Hope this helps.

                          • 10. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                            Peter Studt Level 1

                            I was inquiring about a very similar issue a while back, and ended up using 4 black images as a mask over the back most video layer, it was makeshift at best but it worked which was good enough at the time, but would not work in your situation.

                            This is what I was doing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id4JroLRj2A

                            I will bear your suggestions in mind next time I am doing anything similar, thanks!

                             

                            Peter

                            • 11. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                              Colin Brougham Level 6

                              There's another way to do this, and it might be a little simpler--less nesting, anyway.

                               

                              DISCLAIMER: It's well known here that I'll always find a different effect to use before Track Matte, but for sake of argument, we'll use it here

                               

                              After you build your layer stack, with your background on V1, your inset on V2, and your matte graphic on V3, throw the Track Matte effect on your inset video clip (V2), and set it up properly based on your matte graphic (luma, alpha, etc.). Then, instead of scaling your inset video with the clip's Scale parameter (the one under the "fixed" Motion effect), drop the Transform effect on V2, and be sure that it's before the Track Matte effect. What the Transform effect does is give you all of the usual motion parameters (Scale, Position, Anchor Point, Rotation, and some others), but because it's an effect and not a transformation, you can specify where it's placed in the render order. You can then use the Transform effect's Scale parameter to zoom in or out (or do any other kind of motion) on your clip, while the matte stays the same size. It's almost like magic

                               

                              The reason this works is that, in Adobeland, effects are applied before transformations. That's why the matte changes size along with the video its displaying when you use the usual Motion > Scale parameter. When you put the Transform effect into play, you can put the transformations before the effects, and since the Track Matte is an effect, the clip size changes before the Track Matte does its duty.

                               

                              Hope that helps somewhat!

                              • 12. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                                shooternz Level 6

                                I would have made an intermediate then PIP'ed it

                                • 13. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                                  Peter Studt Level 1

                                  Hi Colin,

                                   

                                  For my part the response to you ideas are; Yes, Yes Yes, No

                                  Everything works like a charm until I try and pan or tilt in V2... Then instead of V2's video moving around inside the box, the video stays dead still but the box moves round ontop of V1 and even changes from square rectangle to a tall rectangle.

                                   

                                  I think you really do have it, but I don't have the understanding to figure out the last bug...

                                   

                                  I made a title with a solid square in it, which I put on V3

                                  I put video on V2 with the track matte first (set to V3, Alpha), then the Transform (scale set to Uniform and keyframed from 100% to 300%)

                                  I have another video clip on V1

                                   

                                  Then if I change any of the position adjustments or any anchor adjustments on V2, and, the Box moves and the video within stays put?!? Whats going on?

                                   

                                  Cheers

                                  Peter

                                  • 14. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                                    theGadgetGuy Level 1

                                    Wow!  Lots of good information flowing here.  I hope Adobe is listening.  It sure appears there is a transform hole here.

                                     

                                    IMHO a "PIP" Transform is badly needed.  Sony Vegas has one and it is like a matte mask but can be sized, positioned around the screen anywhere, and can have bordered or feathered edges.

                                     

                                    It has been a very handy effect and I'm rather amazed after switching to Premier that it does not have anything like that!  I used it a LOT.

                                     

                                    Adobe.  Pay attention here!

                                    • 15. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                                      Colin Brougham Level 6

                                      Peter,

                                       

                                      Yes, my apologies--I discovered this weirdness and rather inconsistent behavior after I posted. Scale seems to work OK--as long as you have Transform before Track Matte in the effects stack--but once you try to slide the inset video horizontally or vertically, things start to go awry. It works for a bit, and then both the inset video AND the matte start to slide--definitely not what we're after. I'm not sure if this is a bug, or just the "way it is". I'm trying to steal from the way After Effects works with precomping in order to control the rendering order of effects and transformations, but because PPro isn't resolution independent the way the AE is, we're running into a wall. That's my highly uneducated guess, anyway.

                                       

                                      I do believe that there HAS to be a simple solution to this, or a solution anyway. I like puzzles like this. Give me a little bit

                                      • 16. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                                        Peter Studt Level 1

                                        Colin,

                                         

                                        When I saw the behaviour I assumed it was something I was missing, but the more I tested, the more it seemed apparent that it was indeed being inconsistent... No doubt there is a logical reason for the inconsistency!?!

                                        I have faith in you (or is that unfair pressure )

                                        and I like the way you approach this, looking for the simple solution, it is very elegant.

                                        I just hope that Adobe has the true depth to have the elegance required. PP does have some elegance, but it has many 'walk arounds' that complicate it in a most un-elegant way, sadly. Vegas on the other hand, has elegance in boat loads, but it lacks the stability and the technical support...

                                         

                                        Whatever happens I feel like I have made progress today!

                                        I look forward with no expectations, to hearing what you come up with.

                                         

                                        Peter

                                        • 17. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                                          Curt Wrigley Level 4

                                          This "scaling locked to matte"  issue has been reported a few times as a bug, and adobe always responds it is a WAD.  (Working as designed).

                                           

                                          Indeed; it is often useful for the scaling to be locked, but sometimes it is not; as in your case.  Ive found the nesting a pretty simple workaround.

                                          • 18. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                                            Colin Brougham Level 6

                                            Ive found the nesting a pretty simple workaround.

                                            I'll grant that it's a workaround, but I'll argue it being pretty simple. Any time you need to drive layers deep to make something work, it ceases being simple; the chaos element introduced is a total buzzkill. Nesting is a great boon for many editing practices, but I look at it as sort of a last resort when nothing else will work.

                                             

                                            All due respect, Curt, because your solution is 100% correct, and I may be completely wrong that there is a single-layer solution to this--and I absolutely reserve the right to be--but that ain't gonna stop me from trying

                                            • 19. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                                              Curt Wrigley Level 4

                                              Go for it!

                                               

                                              I guess the work around is OK for me, cause I rarely if ever need to do what is being requested here.

                                              • 20. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                                                Peter Studt Level 1

                                                I have found myself wanting to do many things that other people don't seem to want to do!

                                                One thing I have long imagined is the time when images will not be so naturally constrained to right-angles.

                                                But this inability of PP to contain videos/images within their own independent border, is, to indirectly quote the thread creator "Rather Amazing!!!"

                                                He and I both use this concept of presenting images, and we are not the only ones, the idea is basic to the requirements of an NLE it would seem to me, seeing it used daily in so many settings, and yet Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 fumbles the ball so badly and offers no apology, just a statement that everything's "Working as Designed"!!!

                                                 

                                                Well "That's what she said!"

                                                 

                                                Peter

                                                 

                                                p.s. I'm pretty sure she was faking it!

                                                • 21. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                                                  Harm Millaard Level 7
                                                  One thing I have long imagined is the time when images will not be so naturally constrained to right-angles.

                                                   

                                                  I agree especially since some TV manufacturers have accounced plans to introduce triangular and ellipcital TV's with swivel capabilities.

                                                  • 22. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                                                    theGadgetGuy Level 1

                                                    ... Vegas on the other hand, has elegance in boat loads, but it lacks the stability and the technical support...

                                                     

                                                    Amen to that!  That is the reason I switched to PP!  I reached the point with high-def videos where I couldn't create a Vegas project larger than about 4-5 minutes without crashing the computer with every render attempt.

                                                     

                                                    I have been very impressed with PP's capability and stability, but it has been a steep learning curve.

                                                     

                                                    Every once in a while, though, I run up against things like this that were so simple in Vegas and so convoluted in PP.  Makes me scratch my head (and I'm already bald up there so don't really need anymore activity on the surface!)

                                                    • 23. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                                                      Peter Studt Level 1

                                                      I agree especially since some TV manufacturers have accounced plans to introduce triangular and ellipcital TV's with swivel capabilities.

                                                       

                                                      The future holds many delights I see . How about the idea of showing movies at your local Planetarium? I think that would be interesting! But the practicalities of producing something like that seem long distant to myself, yet one day, not too far in the future...

                                                      • 24. Re: How does one make a Matte Key whose result does not zoom with clip?
                                                        Peter Studt Level 1

                                                        @theGadgetGuy, I see we are on the same page here (although my hair is only thinning)!

                                                         

                                                        PP has heaps of potential, and such a strong development potential, but perhaps with the extensive team of developers working on such an application it's hard to recognize when you have gone down a wrong track and go back to do it in a more simple and direct manor. Once you get a mindset of accepting 'work around's' as viable programic solutions to core requirements then it is not long before a monster is born, hehehe.

                                                         

                                                        I watch my friend working with Vegas and it is just amazing how productive he can be in such a short time, the timeline just seems to fill with fully edited and awesome stuff, and then he comes to render it and I get this sinking feeling of DeJa Vu, when all that productivity smacks into a wall... It really is too bad!

                                                         

                                                        Peter