26 Replies Latest reply on Mar 14, 2010 8:55 PM by the_wine_snob

    Burning BluRay from PE8


      I have a external BluRay burner from LG (connected with USB2).

      When I want to burn a HDV film (1440 x 1080i) to BluRay it always stops after the rendering to burn a single circle on the BluRaydisk and then it's ruint.

      If I take the same file to Nero 9, it burns right away succesful.

      This was already the case in PE7 and now in PE8 it's not improved.


      Somebody else with this problems to??

        • 1. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
          nealeh Level 5

          You are not alone in users with blu-ray burning issues (search for blu-ray in the forums).


          PRE does not have a 'burn to folder' feature for blu-ray so:

          • how have you created the file that Nero can burn?
          • did it actually play on a blu-ray player?


          Also give us some details on your PC (windows version, 32 or 64 bit, processor, memory, free disk space, graphics card, sound card).


          Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your children

          • 2. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
            kentRda Level 1

            My answer probably won't solve your problem, but, it will keep you from destroying expensive Blu-ray disks:


            I have purchased ONE (expensive) rewriteable (RW) Blu-ray disk (from Amazon.com for about $15).   Before I ever burn a project to a Read-only BD, I first burn it to the ReWriteable disk.   That way, I can preview my project by viewing it from my Blu-ray player and HD TV.  Likewise, if anything goes wrong, or, if I need to make any touchups or corrections, I can do so without tossing a BR Disk in the trash.   My RW Blu-Ray disk has paid for itself many, many times!   I'm not sure how many times a RW disk can be ReWritten, but I've rewritten my disk at least 20 times and it works as good as new. (The RW Blu-ray disk I have is made by Panasonic, but the Sony's are also very good).


            • 3. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
              the_wine_snob Level 9



              This is sage advice. I strongly using rewriteables for all testing. I have a few 5-packs of these, and they have served me well for years, and many Projects. I do NOT recommend these for any delivery.


              I use my RW's for each SD DVD project, and have not made a "coaster" in years. Were I doing BD, I would have a couple of the RE's and use them, just as you indicate.


              Good call, and it saves $!





              • 4. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                Schilfers Level 1

                Thanks for your reactions,



                Technical details: I work with PE8 on Windows 7 32 bit on a Quadcore 6600 which works fine now with the new drivers and the advices which I received in this Forum.

                Never got any reaction from Adobe, they are still high up there in their ivory tower. Next time I will download a cracked version before I let myself be cheated with a bad functioning "official" program.


                Already with PE7 I couldn't manage to make a BD with my LG (supermultiblue).

                No problem with Nero 9. Of course I have to render first to a

                MPG (1441 x 1080i) file which I import in Nero. M2V also works but then you have to ad the WAV file afterwards in the editing mode. The only problem is that I cannot make Chapters in a Nero BluRay project So if you don't want to have a film of 1h30' in one piece, you have to make separate small films instead.


                I also use BD-RW discs before I make the final one since the cheapest BD here in Belgium cost €6,90, TDK €12,90 and Sony €25. These TDK's from €12,90 cost in Taiwan only €2,00 so I let them bring from Chinese friends.


                Maybe somebody has another program to advice that does the job well WITH the possibility of making chapters? I tried it once with Adobe Encore CS4 but it also didn't turn out well. Does Adobe have a BD problem??


                Grtz from Roald

                • 5. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                  A.T. Romano Level 7



                  I have several versions of Premiere Elements, including version 8, and have always burned to disc, DVD. I do not have any Blu-ray computer equipment.


                  BUT, I have gotten into this Blu-ray burn to disc as well as folder via this Phantom Burner business. Have you read about it and/or tried it? The Phantom Burner is a virtual burner which uses virtual discs. And, you can burn to disc Blu-Ray (Premiere Elements recognizes the Phantom Burner as if it were a real installed Burner drive). You end up saving a disc image which you can later mount and burn to an actual Blu-Ray disc with 3rd party software such as ImgBurn and, I believe, Nero, to name a few.


                  Since I did not have Blu-Ray, I tried the principle out with a DVD and DVD-VIDEO. It worked great, but you did have to find your way depending on the burn software that you used to put the disc image on the real disc.


                  I do not visit here as often as I would like, but, if you want some documentation on this, please let me know.



                  • 6. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                    kentRda Level 1

                    Mr. Romero,

                    Great Input!   Burning to a virtual disk also has to be much faster than burning an actual disk.  Therefore, one can view the results much quicker.  If the virtual burn looks good, then I would imagine that burning a disk is as easy as making a copy from virtual to a real disk.  Again, great advise! Kent

                    • 7. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                      A.T. Romano Level 7



                      As I did with the DVD disc and DVD-VIDEO, I would like to experiment with the some real 3rd party softwares and the disc image from the Premiere Elements burn to disc Blu-ray using the Phantom Burner. But, for now, I need to wait for others who already have Blu-ray equipment to report back on their findings.


                      It sounds very interesting and am looking forward to progess in this area.



                      • 8. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                        kentRda Level 1

                        Mr. Romano,

                        The Phantom Burner was/is a great idea.   I downloaded the free trial and found that it would only create virtual CD's and DVD's, but not a virtual BD. Oh well, I still have my ReWritable Blu-ray disk.

                        Thanks for the suggestion anyway.


                        1 person found this helpful
                        • 9. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                          Schilfers Level 1

                          Untill now I have never done that. I only used Daemon tools untill now. But that makes a virtual DVD, can it also be used a Virtual BD? I wonder.

                          Maybe somebody knows which other programs we can use for that purpose, because when this BD can be made it's very easy to copy these maps to the hard disk and then make a real BD with it. How about Roxio ? I will try this Phantom Burner anyhow.

                          This discussion becomes very interesting !!

                          • 10. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                            A.T. Romano Level 7



                            The Phantom Burner that I downloaded and installed does indeed include creating a disk image for the Blu-ray disc. And, I have done it with my Premiere Elements 7 and 8 Share/Disc/Disc Blu-ray, designating the virtual Phantom Burner into which I had "inserted" a virtual BD-RE.


                            The following are the details of what I did, posted at another forum that I frequent. The details are shown when I was using Premiere Elements 7 as the example, but it works the same for Premiere Elements 8. My computer operating system is Windows XP Professional SP3 32 bit. Please check it out.



                            I do not have a physical BluRay disc, burner, or player. But, I am about to describe how I went about using a virtual burner to burn to BluRay with Premiere Elements 7 using a virtual BD-RE disc.



                            Step 1 is to download and install the Phantom Burner.


                            This should get you through most of the evaluation of the technique. You will get a message later giving you size limits for use before you need to BUY.


                            50 MB CD-R


                            1.4 GB DVD & BD Media





                            Step 2. After installation, go to My Computer where you will now find a drive icon and letter for your Phantom Burner which will be named “Phantom Burner Drive”. Think of this Phantom Burner software installation as equivalent to installing physically an internal or external CD/DVD/or BluRay burner to your computer system.



                            Step 3. Now for getting a “disc” in this virtual burner…..when you get to the burn dialog in Premiere Elements, the program is going to be looking for a disc in the Phantom Burner before it shows Ready and allows you to continue. The Phantom Burner’s counterpart for getting a disc into its burner is to right click the “Phantom Burner Drive” icon shown with the other drives under My Computer, and selecting Create Image.



                            You will then see a Save As dialog which will give a File Name: and Save as type: “Virtual Disc Image”. To the bottom right of this Save As dialog, I left the following checked:


                            Extract audio track into WAV file


                            Enable post processing


                            Convert data disc to ISO format


                            To the bottom left of this Save As dialog, is the Media section offering:










                            I selected BD-RE for this tryout.


                            It is very important that you set this to correspond to your Premiere Elements 7 Share/Disc/Disc choice; otherwise you will end up with a constant inappropriate disc message from Premiere Elements.



                            Step 4. In Premiere Elements 7 Share/Disc/Disc BluRay, you will now find the Phantom Burner listed in Burner Location: of the burn dialog. If you have “inserted the BD-RE virtual disc” as described above, you should get a READY indication. Hit Burn. Your Timeline should be encoded and burned to BluRay format on that BD-RE virtual disc which now exists as that “Virtual Disc Image” that you saved back in Step 3.



                            Step 5. When you want to burn this “Virtual Disc Image” to a real BluRay disc, right click the “Virtual Disc Image” which has an .iso file extension and select “Mount in Phantom Burner”.


                            And, when you want to create another Phantom Disc, like the real thing, you have to eject the previous disc. Go back to Phantom Disc burner icon, right click, and select eject.



                            This was my first hand look at Phantom burner. It seemed to work for me. Lots that I have not tried doing with it. So, please check it out to make sure that it works for you also.



                            • 11. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                              the_wine_snob Level 9



                              First, nice to see you back in this forum. I know you have been busy elsewhere, but have been missed here.


                              Thanks for going into detail on Phantom Burner. Nice work, and likely very useful to many.



                              • 12. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                                A.T. Romano Level 7



                                As I mentioned, I do not have any Blu-ray equipment, but I was eager to explore the concept of the virtual Phantom Burner and its virtual disc. I have been interested in this since first reading of its in Robert Johnston's earlier posts. In my previous post in this thread, I detailed how I managed to create the Disk Image for the BD-RE upto that point.


                                I do not know if it would help, but here are the details for the DVD-VIDEO on DVD side of things that I wrote about elsewhere. It sort of gets into the real burning of these Disk Images.




                                For now let us make believe that we do not have a “real” DVD burner and “real” DVD disc.

                                So, let us see how this all works when Premiere Elements DVD-VIDEO is derived from using Premiere Elements built in Sonic software, a virtual DVD+RW disc, and the virtual Phantom Burner.

                                1. Phantom Burner was installed as described in previous post. A virtual disc was “inserted” into the Phantom Burner when we right clicked the Phantom Burner icon in My Computer and selected Create Image.

                                2. In the Create Image setup, under Media we have four choices:
                                The last three choices have the same one Option: with a check mark next to “convert data disc to ISO format”.
                                If you leave that unchecked, you will get the image in a .VDD format, and the Phantom Burner program goes on to say “Warning: ISO format provides maximum compatibility with various software. But you may lose some features supported by native virtual disc image (.VDD).”

                                3. So, we moved forward with a virtual DVD+RW disc in our virtual Phantom Burner, with “convert data disc to ISO format” checked. We then closed out of My Computer/Phantom Burner Drive.

                                4. Premiere Elements 7 was opened (project preset, new project dialog, = NTSC DV Standard). When we got to Share/Disc/Disc DVD, the Phantom Burner was included in our burner location and “Ready” since we had already inserted our virtual DVD+RW disc back in My Computer. We hit burn and the Timeline was burned to the virtual disc and ended up as an ISO image in the save location that we designated beforehand.

                                Now what to do with that file to get it on a real DVD disc as DVD-VIDEO?

                                5. This is what worked for me with the Nero StartSmart (version 6) whether the file was set up for ISO or VDD format:
                                (a) Right clicked the file and selected “Mount in Phantom Burner”. That put our DVD-VIDEO virtual DVD+RW disc into the Phantom Burner. Now it was just a matter of copying that to a real DVD+RW or DVD-R disc which would play back on the computer as well as the TV via its TV DVD Player. The Nero settings that worked were:
                                Copy and Backup/Copy DVD
                                Copy and Backup/Burn Image to Disc/”Image, Project, Copy”/ “Copy Entire Disk”.

                                Any other Nero routes were problematic and resulted in failures. Needs more work.

                                6. This is what worked for me with Sonic Record Now (version 7) the settings were:
                                Drag and drop of the saved .iso or .VDD file was to Backup Projects/Burn Image.
                                Both the .iso and .VDD could be burned to a DVD+RW or DVD-R disc successfully. But it was only the one derived from the .iso file that the DVD player would accept and play back as DVD-VIDEO; whereas the Copy approach that made Nero doable did not work for Record Now.

                                7. ImgBurn (version worked to produce DVD-VIDEO from both the .iso and .VDD formats. Here the settings were “Write image file to disc”, followed by File Menu/Browse for Source. In the case of the .iso format, files of type = All Supported Files did the job. Whereas, in the case of the .VDD format, files of type had to be set = All Files.

                                I am not sure if more updated versions of Nero and Record Now would change any of the results obtained in these mini tests. Even with the tools used, the task could be accomplished. But a lot of experimenting had to be done to determine the conditions which determined go and no go. This was just DVD-VIDEO. I am not sure what other variables will be introduced when this testing is done at the BluRay level.



                                • 13. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                                  kentRda Level 1

                                  Whew!  That's quite a process.


                                  I would assume that anyone who is interested in creating a Blu-ray disk would have a Blu-ray drive/burner for their computer.

                                  Assuming that, it is much easier to simply insert a ReWriteable Blu-ray disk, and click on START.


                                  Another thing about having a Virtual BD drive is that one would also need to have Blu-ray Player software in order to view the virtual disk.   While most of us 'Blu-ray' creators can burn a BD, playing it back on our computer is often a different thing - since burning software and playback software are two different things.


                                  Also.... from past experience, I have learned that to have different varieties of burning software on my 'very capable computer' is a recipe for disaster (otherwise known to video editors as: crashes and lockups).   One VERY nice thing about Windows 7 (which I use) is that it will allow a user to create a seperate 'virtual computer' in which a user can run  other programs on XP when they don't get along well with the newer operating systems.  Thus, if someone wants to have other 'Burn Engines' on their computer, I highly suggest that they consider getting Windows 7 and then installing those engines on the virtual drive so that they don't interfere with Premiere.



                                  • 14. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                                    Schilfers Level 1

                                    I stopped trying to burn a BluRay with PE8.

                                    After rendering my video to MPG 1440 x 1080i, to mpg (NOT to m2v + wav because that's a problem for Nero 9), and then I make a compilation with menu in Nerovision and Nero can create a map with everything I need to burn a BD which he does very succesfully.

                                    For my slideshows made with ProshowProducer I do the same because this program cannot create a HD-file in PAL, only in NTSC, so I create a PAL BD and then open this ISO-file with the Phantom Burner to take the m2ts stream out of it and burn it also with Nero to a BD. It looks complicated but it's very simple.

                                    So if Adobe cannot make this PE8 do what it is supposed to do, I manage a way around and get what I need to get. There was a update for PE8 but it didn't manage to get installed. Even that they cannot do succesfully!

                                    • 15. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                                      kentRda Level 1

                                      Hi Schif:

                                      Reviewing your posts, I've seen two things that might be causing problems & conflicts on your computer:  1. The first thing is Roxio.   It has been known to not play nicely with other disk writing software on your computer.   At the very least, please go in to your startup folder by clicking on Start, then entering  msconfig.exe  on the search line. Once in msconfig, click on the Services Tab. Now, check the box that says 'Ignore all Microsoft Services" and click Okay. Then go down the list and uncheck any lines which make any reference to Roxio in them. (Don't worry, it won't affect the operation of the Roxio program).  Click Apply, and then click on the StartUp tab.  In the StartUp tab, also look for any lines which reference Roxio and uncheck them. Also, uncheck any lines which refer to Nero!   Click apply. Then, restart your computer.  When your computer restarts, tell it that you don't want to see the 'change' screen again.   This change will keep parts and pieces of Nero and especially Roxio from running while you are trying to run PE8. This will help things a lot.


                                      2, The next thing I noticed is that you prepare 'slide shows' in PE.   That's just fine, EXCEPT, when you do so, you need to conform your still pictures so that they match the resolution of whatever video you are working with.   For instance, if your Project is being done at 1280 X 720, then the resolution should be NO higher than 1280 X 720!   Nowadays, many of the digital still cameras can shoot some very high definition photos; even higher than 1920 X 1080 - which is the highest resolution you can process in PE.    If you bring those Hi Res pictures into your timeline without FIRST sizing them down, the end result will be: 1. Dramatically increased processing and rendering times, and 2. Crashes when you go to burn the project to disk - particularly if the disk is a Blu-ray.


                                      If you do need to downsize your photos, you should be able to do that with your photo editing software - before you import the pictures into PE.


                                      Please give these couple of things a try and let me and the other users on the forum know how it worked out for you.




                                      PS:   The reasons I mentioned the two suggestions above are because you mentioned that you might have Roxio on your computer, and because you mentioned that you render your video/project to 1440 X 1080.   1440 X 1080 is still a Hi Def, Widescreen resolution which provides an excellent finished product.   However, if you are not first downsizing your still photos (which go into the project) to 1440 X 1080, then the results could very possibly be crashes and stops when trying to burn such a project.


                                      Again, please let me and the others' know how these suggestions work out for you.

                                      Happy St. Patricks Day!


                                      • 16. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                                        the_wine_snob Level 9

                                        If the OP's still images are larger than the Project Preset's Frame Size, this ARTICLE will provide a simple, and mostly automated way to Scale them in PS. PSElements works in a very similar fashion.


                                        Good luck,



                                        • 17. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                                          the_wine_snob Level 9

                                          For a little bit more background on what often happens with Roxio (and Nero), this ARTICLE gives a bit more detail on the "why" and the "how." Your steps will go a very long way to helping the OP "fix" things. Thanks for those steps, as they should be the burner back for Adobe programs.



                                          • 18. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                                            Schilfers Level 1

                                            Dear kentrda@msn.com there seem to be some misunderstanding.


                                            I don't use ROXIO together with NERO because they really hate each other. That's the reason why I have 3 x Windows 7 installed on my computer: So I can install and use programs which don't like each other on different operating systems without any problem. I prefer Nero because for me it's much more logical then Roxio. The only thing I use from Roxio is the Label creator.


                                            I never make slideshows in PE because I am used to Photodex Proshow Producer which gives excellent results. First I resize the pictures (if you don't resize you will get "moiré" effects in your movements) with VSO Image resizer  to the right size 1920 x 1080i and then, after finishing the slideshow, burn them to a BluRay iso file. I then take out the stream m2ts and burn this to a DVD or BluRay depending the final use for it. Making this slideshow in HD and then reduce the m2ts ( which is in the “stream” map) to a 720 x 576 format gives a much better result then reducing the pictures to 720 x 576 immediately and you can zoom in without losing quality. I use the same method if I have to use maps in my videos or slideshows which I make with Map Creator. If I make them immediately in DV format the characters become deformed by the compression and look like Hebrew, that is not the case if I make them first in HD and the reduce to DV. If I use videos 1440 x 1080i together with the  slideshows which are made in 1920 x 1080i, Nero will reduce them all to 1440 x 1080i or  720 x 576 without any problem or losing quality, on the contrary!


                                            If things are still not clear or you have a better way of doing things, please let me know. Always ready to learn from somebody else!


                                            Greetings to you all


                                            • 19. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                                              the_wine_snob Level 9

                                              The only Roxio, or Nero modules that create any problems directly with Adobe programs are the packet-writing InCD, or DLA, depending on which program you are talking about. Next, the "sniffer" and "watcher" modules steal very valuable resources from the system. The bulk of the other modules in each of those two suites co-exist fine with Adobe programs.


                                              What happens with either of the packet-writing modules is that at bootup, InCD, or DLA, will "hook" the burner, and tell the OS that it is really an HDD, to allow packet-writing, which is seen as drag-n-drop to the user. When the Adobe program goes looking for a burner, it cannot find one, since InCD, or DLA, have convinced the OS that they are really HDD's and to treat them as such. Adobe gives up, as it cannot find a burner. Other burning utilities, like Nero, or Roxio, can see through that "lie," and access the burner. The free burning utility, ImgBurn, can see through it too, since it accesses the burner at the hardware level, and not the OS level. Same for my Gear DVD and Gear Burning Pro programs. They gain their access at the hardware level, and do not care what the OS thinks the burner really is.


                                              One little problem, that I discovered while working with another user is that the accounting program, Quicken, will also invoke packet-writing modules inside of Windows. If one has ever used Quicken's Backup to Disk and set it to a CD/DVD burner, any packet-writing hardware available will be invoked and will be called upon at every bootup. If Nero InCD, or Roxio DLA is installed, then it will be called. If neither is there (or an appropriate substitute), then Windows direct burning module will be invoked. After this has happened, the OS will report that a DVD multi-drive is only a CD burner at the hardware level and an HDD at the OS level, and Adobe will not be able to find the burner.


                                              Neither Roxio, nor Nero are bad. I have elements of Nero on both machines (along with many other similar utilities), but that some modules can create issues, especially with Adobe programs. Sorry if I did not make my point clearly.


                                              Good luck,



                                              1 person found this helpful
                                              • 20. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                                                Schilfers Level 1

                                                Thanks for this very clear explanation of things.

                                                By the way, what do you mean by OP??

                                                • 21. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                                                  the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                  Sorry. "OP" is used to refer to "Original Post," or "Original Poster." The exact context should make that distinction clear.


                                                  I try to not use jargon, that I do not explain, but missed this one.


                                                  Good luck,



                                                  • 22. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                                                    kentRda Level 1


                                                    Thanks for your explanation. As Bill explained, having different disk burning software on your computer can cause conflicts.  It isn't because any single program is better or worse than another, but simply because they (both) may be trying to do, or control the same thing (such as a Blu-ray or DVD burner) at the same time.   It is for that reason that I (and Adobe), and Bill and Steve recommend that you go into both SERVICES and STARTUP (via MSConfig) and uncheck any instances of any disk burning programs in each group.   That way, portions of those programs will not be running unless you actually start and open those programs.  Please give that a try as it should be very effective in reducing or eliminating crashes and problems when you are trying to burn a disk.


                                                    • 23. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                                                      kentRda Level 1

                                                      Gee Bill, you're supposed to be perfect.  It's only Sunday and you've already made one mistake


                                                      Of course, the good new's is that you've already made your one mistake for the week. So, you should be in good shape for the rest of the week!



                                                      • 24. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                                                        the_wine_snob Level 9



                                                        You would be more accurate to state that "it's only 7:05PM, where you are, and this is the first mistake that you have been caught in."


                                                        Especially in the PrE forum, poor Steve, ATR, Neale and many others have to watch me like a hawk watches a rodent in a corn field. Too often I quickly offer up some suggestion, only to realize that I have navigated from the PrPro forum, or the Encore forum, to the PrE forum. Some times, the only thing that I know is that I am in SOME Adobe forum! Same thing happens in the PrPro forum. I find that I have typed "Share," and everyone replies, "Huh?" Since my version of PrE had both a Share and an Export (for different formats), I normally do "Share/Export," to cover all bases.


                                                        BTW - thanks again for the MSCONFIG details. I cover using that utility with startup programs and Processes in the "Clean, Lean and Mean Editing Machine" article, but had not included it in the "Why won't my PrE find my burner?" article. I will get your specific details from a recent post, and add them to that article, with proper attributions, of course!


                                                        Thanks for the laugh and the kind words... they WERE "kind words," weren't they????



                                                        • 25. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                                                          kentRda Level 1

                                                          Yes, they were 'kind words'.   Only kind words are acceptable in a forum as anger and insults don't gain or accomplish anything.  Like you, I understand that many forum users come to the forum because they've reached a point of frustration.   But, it would sure be easier to help them if their mind is open and if they are willing to accept suggestions from friends; particularly friends who have most likely already experienced similar frustrations.


                                                          I'm still amazed that you can do so well, considering you are crossing platforms (programs) as you hop from one forum to the next.   However, I have found your 'mixed' experience very helpful as I am in the process of migrating from PE8 to PPro, Encore and the Pro world of video editing.   For a number of years, I've convinced myself that PE is all I need (I don't do professional video production). However, my own demands for perfection and quality have taken me directly down the road to PPro.  All the video I shoot is HD, and all is burned to BD.  Thus, it doesn't make sense to try and paint a Lamborguini with a can of Rust-olium spray paint.    If you're going to do it, then do it right.   And, I thank you for helping get me to that point. 


                                                          I still haven't heard back from Tanya.  But, after looking at her web site, and all the places that she has displayed her work, she appears to be a very busy person.

                                                          Best Regards,


                                                          • 26. Re: Burning BluRay from PE8
                                                            the_wine_snob Level 9



                                                            I understand that many forum users come to the forum because they've reached a point of frustration.


                                                            Wise words. I am often reminded of "The Point of No Return" from Lloyd-Webber's Phantom of the Opera. I feel sorry for those users, but have felt their pain with other programs. Been there - done that. Sometimes, my frustrations with the lack of details, and similar, do come through, but if, at the end ot my day, I can help one user, my work is done. I try to help everyone, in every way that I can think of. "Sometimes, the magic works, and sometimes it does not." [Chief Dan George - Little Big Man.]


                                                            As for Tanya, she IS a busy lady, but a wonderful, gracious lady - a long-time client, a neighbor and a friend. She will get back to you, especially as you guys have so very much in common. She received a big commission for a resort chain, so might well be working on finishing that, before the move. I do not recall if she's doing watercolor prints for them, or maybe some of her multi-media 3D work. We were only able to spend one afternoon and then one evening with her and Mark, back in August. Everyone was being pulled in too many different directions.


                                                            With the US healthcare debates, my wife has been living in Washington, DC, or with legislators in AZ, so I know what "busy" looks like. When I shut down my studio in Denver, and moved here, I came to know what it was like to finish every possible outstanding job for each client. Tanya is there now, trying to move to another country.


                                                            You'll love her, and her husband Mark. Just flat great people, and both are so talented, and caring.


                                                            Good luck,