18 Replies Latest reply on Feb 12, 2010 1:50 PM by pchinique

    How to get BRIGHT Colors for print?

    pchinique Level 1

      I'm working on a large format design. I'm using CMYK color space. I printed a proof on glossy paper and the colors are not bright at all. This is a design for children and I need the colors to show really bright and shiny. How do I accomplish that?

        • 1. Re: How to get BRIGHT Colors for print?
          John Danek Level 4

          It's not going to be easy to recommend anything without knowing what printer and what RIP ( if any ) you are using.  It is possible to get bright colors, but choosing glossy paper in the print dialog may not be enough.  There are techniques you can try that involve RGB ( believe it or not ), but even then the color depends on the print drivers, the number of print cartridges, and the type of printer itself.

           

          I personally rely on a RIP and, in combination with a color management system and a calibrated RIP, get very nice and consistent color accuracy.  Even with that, colors on the monitor will never be matched in print because of the dynamics involved with reflective ( ink on paper ) vs. transmissive ( video RGB color viewed on the monitor ) color.  If your monitor is set to 9300° white point, then color will appear very bright on the monitor, but will never be achievable in print.

          • 2. Re: How to get BRIGHT Colors for print?
            pchinique Level 1

            Thanks so much John for such a fast response.

             

            Here is the thing, I'm working with a client and he did print a proof on a place like kinkos and like I said before the colors were like wash off and not bright. His printer is actually in China and I don't have their contact info. Do you think is best if I try to contact that printer and ask them?

             

            Also I don't know what you mean by RIP?? what is that?

             

            I guess my concern is how much is up to me to get those bright colors or is up to the printer as well.

             

            Thanks a lot.

            • 3. Re: How to get BRIGHT Colors for print?
              pchinique Level 1

              Also I know there is a formula to get rich black which varies from printer to printer. Isn't a similar formula to get rich CMYK colors?

              • 4. Re: How to get BRIGHT Colors for print?
                Wade_Zimmerman Level 6

                John almost hit on the problem, he is a commercial printer I believe.

                 

                If you notice John they say they used a glossy paper which means they are more than likely printing to an Inkjet.

                 

                In which case the user has to be aware of somethings like printing CMYK to an inkjet is not the right way as inkjets do a conversion to cmyk themselves. and require an rgb file color space so they can do the conversion which is not a true conversion in the production process sense.

                 

                Also inkjets have more than four colors so they are converting the rgb to 6 or more colors.

                 

                Then of course there is the fact that when converting a rgb fil eto cmyk or using the cmyk color space you are using a limited gammar and you are not going to get the vibrant colors you now see from such inkjet printing.

                 

                So if you try to use CMYK to an inkjet it is going to have a limited spectrum as would ripping the file to cmyk output. In order to get close to what you probably have to make this a rgb file let the inkjet drivers do the conversion and if printing to a postscript RIP allow the RIP to do the conversion as well.

                 

                Sending a CMYK file to either wil start you off with a limited Gamma as it is.

                 

                Edited

                What you are trying to do is to use a kinkos or your own tabletop printer as a proofer you would do better with a match print from a more sophisticated service bureau for such a match print.

                • 5. Re: How to get BRIGHT Colors for print?
                  pchinique Level 1

                  So I used Illustrator and in my color settings working spaces I'm using:

                  RGB: sRGB IEC61966-2.1CMYK: US. Web Coated (swop) v2

                  And then as document color mode CMYK, should I change this to RGB then?

                  Thanks a lot, I really appreciate your advice.

                  • 6. Re: How to get BRIGHT Colors for print?
                    John Danek Level 4

                    A "RIP" is a raster image processor.  In your Illustrator color settings, use Adobe RGB 1998 instead of sRGB which is a clipped gamut and, as sir Wade has suggested, when converted to printer's CMYK, will be less than optimum color.  Your CMYK setting is fine.  Don't forget to choose "Use Black point compensation".

                     

                    And, no.  There is no such thing as Rich CMYK.

                     

                    I'll have more info for you later, I'm under a crunch right now.

                    • 7. Re: How to get BRIGHT Colors for print?
                      Wade_Zimmerman Level 6

                      Try this make a copy of your cmyk file,then open that copy and change the color mode to RGB.

                       

                      Make certain your rgb color settings are Adobe RGB 1998 then go to Edit>Assign Color Profile and change what ever the current profile is to Adobe RGB 1998.

                       

                      In your printer dirvers see if they also have the option to choose Adobe RGB 1998 if so select it,if nnt used something like vivd or enhanced if offered or

                       

                      In the Illustrator print dialog use let Illustrator manage color in the output section. That is probably a bttr choice then letting the rint manage the color settings.

                       

                      Now remember what you get on the proof will not exactly match 100% of what a cmyk printer will give but Illustrator usually does a good job of letting you know what you will or should get by going this route.

                      • 8. Re: How to get BRIGHT Colors for print?
                        pchinique Level 1

                        Thanks so much for your answers. 

                        I think this might work. I'm still a little confused about using RGB as color profile and let the printers do the change or use CMYK from the beginning. I got 2 different opinions about that and I'm using a lot of colors for this design.

                        Thanks, this has been really helpful. 

                        • 9. Re: How to get BRIGHT Colors for print?
                          pchinique Level 1

                          Thanks Wade for your help. I really appreciate you're taking the time to answer to my questions.

                          • 10. Re: How to get BRIGHT Colors for print?
                            Wade_Zimmerman Level 6

                            You're welcome.

                             

                            It might see a little confusing, I agree.

                             

                            It would be great if there were a real standard to go by but there is not one.

                             

                            it is like this you need to work to a non postscript inkjet the way it was design to be used.

                             

                            The same goes for  a printing Press the two are different and there for there is a different method which required different profiles.

                             

                            So making a coy of the CMYK and converting that will leave you with you original file that can be sent to the press and the copy that was converted can be sent to the inkjet.If both are profiled properly you should get close to each other.

                             

                            But since they are different devices there is going to some difference. Also the gamut of the Inkjet probably exceeds that of the Press.

                            • 11. Re: How to get BRIGHT Colors for print?
                              John Danek Level 4

                              If you're going to make an RGB copy, apply a Rendering Intent of "Perceptual" in the color settings.  Wade is correct, Inkjet is different than Offset printing and I do not want to confuse the issue with a lot of techno mumbo-jumbo.  It would definitely be a good idea to contact the print vendor in China, if you can.  They can tell you what they want in the file setup.  The only reason I recommended RGB as the color space was because of the inkjets ability to render a more saturated print and can optimize some of the color by going a little outside the typical CMYK gamut.  This is an exception. A typical workflow would involve a CMYK color space, especially when you are confined to matching correct color.  I do not know the specifics of your file, but it appears you may not be concerned with matching color accurately, but rather want a more saturated and brighter print.  Therefore, an RGB Photographic print workflow would work in your case and involves RGB = Adobe RGB, CMYK = SWOP Coated v2, Use Black Point Compensation, and a Rendering Intent = Perceptual.

                               

                              Sorry I do not have enough time or space to go techno here.  Wade, I'm not a printer.

                              • 12. Re: How to get BRIGHT Colors for print?
                                pchinique Level 1

                                That's correct I'm not intending to match specific colors just want to get it bright. This is a vector illustration in 45x72 in, which is going to be printed in fabric.

                                Thanks so much for your help, a least now I get a better idea. 

                                • 13. Re: How to get BRIGHT Colors for print?
                                  Wade_Zimmerman Level 6

                                  It depends on the work flow.

                                   

                                  As a photographer I send out Adobe RGB 1998 files to publications in every part of the world, as requested by the art directors of the publications and they then work with the files and to accommodate their printers profiles and reproduction type.

                                   

                                  However if I am working directly with a printer I usually ask for their profile and find I usually get a good match by sending them cmyk since I have the opportunity of adjusting the image in the color space it will reproduce in.

                                   

                                  The only time I send a printer Adobe RGB Files is if they request it or if they refuse to send me a profile.

                                   

                                  However Illustrator is not about images and it is a different ball of wax. So unless the printer wants it in any other color space then I would do this as cmyk and also use image files place in the document that have been also prepared as cmyk, unless again the printer wants them a s rgb which is usually rare.

                                   

                                  I am pleased to hear that I erred and you are not a printer.

                                   

                                  One less problem in the world.

                                   

                                  OOps I replied to this fro n e-mail response.

                                   

                                  This is a fabric printer not a printing press.

                                   

                                  That is very different.

                                   

                                  I have no experience printing on fabric.

                                  • 14. Re: How to get BRIGHT Colors for print?
                                    pchinique Level 1

                                    I'm not using any images, everything is vector. Here is a screen shot so you get an idea of the type of design, but I will tell my client to ask the printer for the specifications though, for some reason it's been very difficult to get the info for the printer so that I can contact myself. Hopefully the communication wont get lost.

                                    I have the feeling though that unless I go with RGB, I will never achieve the brightness I'm looking for. 

                                     

                                    Thanks

                                    • 15. Re: How to get BRIGHT Colors for print?
                                      JETalmage Level 6
                                      How to get BRIGHT Colors for print?

                                       

                                      Put BRIGHT colors in the press.

                                       

                                      In a later post, you mention that this is for printing on fabric. Are you sure the printing method that is going to be used is regular CMYK process?

                                       

                                      CMYK separation may be entirely inappropriate for what you are doing. You may need to be using spot colors. You need to obtain specific information from the printing vendor about how this is going to be printed.

                                       

                                      JET

                                      • 16. Re: How to get BRIGHT Colors for print?
                                        pchinique Level 1

                                        Thanks so much for your answers. All I know is that they use a big roll of fabric. I think is Inkjet print but I really don't know. 

                                        I only used spot colors for logos though. 

                                        • 17. Re: How to get BRIGHT Colors for print?
                                          JETalmage Level 6
                                          I think is Inkjet print but I really don't know.

                                           

                                          You need to know. If you design something for print, you have to know something about how it will be printed.

                                           

                                          "Printed on fabric from a big roll" doesn't define the printing process. Bedclothes and curtains are printed on fabric from a big roll. But that's a whole different world away from ordinary CMYK offset printing. Large format low-quantity inkjet printing can be done on fabric from a big roll. Some such devices use inks that fairly replicate ordinary CMYK offset printing. Others use specialized inks (dyes, really) or additional colors (six color is not uncommon) to achieve more brilliance, and those devices often prefer RGB input.

                                           

                                          You need to talk to the printing vendor about his preferred input. He may tell you to work in RGB, and may even have a color management provile for you to use.

                                           

                                          JET

                                          • 18. Re: How to get BRIGHT Colors for print?
                                            pchinique Level 1

                                            Thanks a lot, it's clear that until I clarify this with the printer I won't be able to move forward. Let's see if my client wants to facilitate this process a bit.

                                            Thanks for your help.