19 Replies Latest reply on Mar 9, 2010 3:54 PM by the_wine_snob

    Background rendering while encoding?

    ruffhouseutah

      I'm encoding a two-hour project for a DVD burn (on my Win7-64 system, no less!), and I see "Background Rendering" taking place at the exact same time...

       

      What's that all about?

       

      I stopped the encoding session, disabled background rendering and started again, but what the heck is Adobe thinking with allowing background rendering to start or continue when encoding begins?

       

      Maybe I just don't get this, but isn't rendering solely for preview purposes? Must a project be rendered to be encoded? Is it rendered while it is encoded?

       

      What am I missing?

        • 1. Re: Background rendering while encoding?
          the_wine_snob Level 9

          The terms "Rendering" and "Transcoding" are often used for the same operation. If you have Background Rendering turned off, then what you are seeing is the Transcoding phase of the build/burn process. This is the conversion of your Timeline to MPEG-2 for a DVD-Video.

           

          Good luck,

           

          Hunt

          • 2. Re: Background rendering while encoding?
            Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

            As Hunt says, Premiere Elements uses a DV-AVI workflow for its standard definition projects. That means that whatever you put into it must be rendered as a DV-AVI before it becomes anything. This is true even if you put an MPEG in and get an MPEG out. In between importing in and exporting out, it becomes a DV-AVI.

             

            This is why the miniDV camcorder remains the ideal video source for Premiere Elements (as well as most PC and Mac based editors). The video that comes out of a miniDV camcorder is a DV-AVI and does not need to be conformed and/or rendered when used in Premiere Elements until an effect or transition is added to it.

            1 person found this helpful
            • 3. Re: Background rendering while encoding?
              ruffhouseutah Level 1

              So, to be 100% clear, let's say that I haven't rendered my project, and there are red lines all over the place indicating that I can't preview without rendering, but I'm good with it as-is and ready to burn.

               

              I go to burn it and it says "encoding" and a progress indicator SLOWLY crawls along.

               

              Is the encoding actually rendering first? Is rendering required, since it turns it into DV-AVI before MPEG2, as you said?

               

              So what if I had already rendered, would that speed up the encoding/burning session, if that part is already done?

               

              My session has now failed and crashed several times, giving me an error saying that it has run out of memory... it's my first two-hour project, and I've applied a couple of effects: Auto Color and Image Stabilization. Might those effects have something to do with my memory problem? My other, smaller projects have burned just fine.

               

              I've got a pretty beefy system:

               

              Core i7 920, overclocked to 3.5 GHz

              6 GB DDR3 RAM 1333 MHz

              2 SATA2 Drives at 7200 RPM

              Nvidia 9600 GT

               

              Updated to 8.0.1, and Nvidia drivers (and all others) are current

              Very few processes running, used MSCONFIG to shut down all but the most essentials (not anti-virus running either)

               

              Got any ideas for troubleshooting memory errors during transcoding? Or should I chalk it up to PE8 not being certified with 64-bit systems?

               

              I've read about problems with multi-core systems and 9-series Nvidia cards... maybe that has something to do with it?

              • 4. Re: Background rendering while encoding?
                the_wine_snob Level 9

                Unless PrE 8 has made a major change, Rendering is 100% for playback - only. In PrPro CS4 does one have the choice to "Use Render Files." This is a double-edged sword, as Export/Transcode times can be longer in many cases.

                 

                As I use DV-AVI Type II Assets, I seldom bother to Render, unless I am doing some major Keyframing and really need to see those particular results. When I go to Export/Transcode, often most of the Timeline has been changed due to Effects, etc., and are un-Rendered with red lines. No issues.

                 

                Good luck, and hope that this helps,

                 

                Hunt

                1 person found this helpful
                • 5. Re: Background rendering while encoding?
                  ruffhouseutah Level 1

                  That makes sense, thank you Hunt.

                   

                  Now what about my memory issues during transcoding? Any ideas up your sleeve?

                   

                  Just chalk it up to 64-bit incompatibility? If so, I'm not sure why my shorter/simpler projects would burn just fine on the same system, and this one does not...

                   

                  ???

                  • 6. Re: Background rendering while encoding?
                    ruffhouseutah Level 1

                    I'm sitting here watching the physical memory get sapped during my current attempt at transcoding/burning, even though only a dozen skinny services are running. I've watched it climb from 48% to 71% steadily.

                     

                    The processor is staying pegged at 100% across 8 cores.

                     

                    Any good reason the memory usage is just climbing higher and higher? I'm betting this is what happened the last time it crashed...

                     

                    ???

                    • 7. Re: Background rendering while encoding?
                      ruffhouseutah Level 1

                      Hunt, if rendering is for playback only, then do you agree that background rendering while encoding is pretty stupid?

                       

                      And if what you say is true about having to convert to DV-AVI before converting to the output format, and rendering accomplishes that conversion, then wouldn't that mean that rendering is required, even if it's done automatically during the encoding process?

                      • 8. Re: Background rendering while encoding?
                        Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                        I disagree with Hunt that rendering the timeline is for playback preview only.

                         

                        I've seen tests done -- comparing output times for a pre-rendered and and unrendered video -- and the differences in output times are pretty dramatic.

                         

                        If you render your timeline, Premiere Elements can use the rendered files to build your output file.

                        • 9. Re: Background rendering while encoding?
                          the_wine_snob Level 9

                          Steve,

                           

                          In the tests that I have run, the combined time for first Rendering and then Exporting are almost identical to the Export time, without the Rendering first. Now, if one has done the Render for playback already, then there is a time savings, but if the Rendering has not been done, to do so, and then Export is almost identical to just doing Export and there's one less button push (the Enter key). Are you taking into account the combo of Render + Export?

                           

                          Just curious,

                           

                          Hunt

                          • 10. Re: Background rendering while encoding?
                            Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                            There are always at least two phases to any "Share".

                             

                            1) Rendering -- in which whatever is on the timeline is converted to a DV-AVI (or an HDV MPEG, if it's an hi-def project);

                             

                            2) Transcoding -- to whatever the final output format is.

                             

                            Rendering the timeline should save you having to wait for the program to do the first phase. Transcoding, however, is always the longer process (unless you're outputting a DV-AVI, in which case you should go from rendered timeline to output in just a few seconds).

                            • 11. Re: Background rendering while encoding?
                              the_wine_snob Level 9

                              Steve,

                               

                              I have a little test Project, and will do two Save_As, then will add some JPEG's to it, and leave those un-Rendered. Then will do an Export from each, one un-Rendered and one Rendered and give you the times for the two processes. Might not be until later, as I need to set things up first.

                               

                              Hunt

                              • 12. Re: Background rendering while encoding?
                                the_wine_snob Level 9

                                Here is the test:

                                 

                                The SD NTSC DV Project consisted of DV-AVI footage, with Titles above all Frames, JPEG's and one PSD. The Duration is 00;01;44;29. I did a Save_As to get two versions of the Project. Both tests were un-Rendered. Both Projects were Exported to DV-AVI w/ 48KHz 16-bit Audio.

                                 

                                The A version was Rendered by pressing Enter. The total time was 11.25 sec. and the Export was 4.5 sec.

                                 

                                The B version was not Rendered, but Exported only. The total time was 9.75 sec.

                                 

                                This was done on a Quad-core laptop with 3x 200GB SATA II HDD's and 4GB RAM on XP-Pro SP-3 w/ no 3GB switch. The Exports and the Render files went to the D:\.

                                 

                                When I get around to it, I will use a larger Project and see what the differences for it are. Though my reflexes are still pretty good, there could well be .25 sec. difference with pushing the stopwatch's button with my left hand, while hitting the mouse button with my right. I will also do a test with another output setting, like WMV, and maybe MPEG-2, as those should take longer and might be more accurately reflective of the times, that others would be encountering.

                                 

                                Hunt

                                • 13. Re: Background rendering while encoding?
                                  Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                                  How's that for challenging my beliefs, Hunt! You actually get FASTER results when you don't render first!?

                                   

                                  I'll see if I can do some experimenting myself.

                                  • 14. Re: Background rendering while encoding?
                                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                                    Steve,

                                     

                                    That surprised me too. The difference was slight, but then the Project was a simple and short one. When I get a moment, I'll gather up a longer Project and throw in some Effects (that Auto Color was causing an issue for another users, so maybe that would be a good candidate) and see what sorts out.

                                     

                                    Last time that I did the test was with several longer PrPro 2.0 Projects. There the total times were almost identical. Seems that I was also testing Neat Video (a video noise elimination Effect), which is a major resource hog. Another user was getting abnormally long Render, and Export times with it, and the general specs. of their computer were not really that far from mine, except that I was on a laptop, and they were on a desktop.The main difference was the I/O, as they had only one internal HDD, while I had 3x SATA II's.

                                     

                                    I'll report back, when I have an appropriate Project set up. Remember, this will be an SD, not an HD Project.

                                     

                                    Later,

                                     

                                    Hunt

                                    • 15. Re: Background rendering while encoding?
                                      ruffhouseutah Level 1

                                      So if I have this right, it sounds like you two definitely agree on one thing: the rendering process MUST take place before export, whether it's done on the timeline or during the exporting process... correct?

                                       

                                      What you two are playing with is speed... is it faster to render on the timeline or render during export?  Correct?

                                       

                                      Wouldn't that really depend on if PE8 uses the render files or not? Was there really an option at one time to use render files during the export? Do either of you know for sure if Adobe does or not?

                                      • 16. Re: Background rendering while encoding?
                                        Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                                        Okay, here are my results:

                                         

                                        I took one five-minute DV-AVI as my source file and, to isolate the issue to rendering, I applied one effect (I rotate it 90 degrees) and Shared the file as a DV-AVI. To ensure I wasn't re-using any scratch files, I started a brand new project for each test. Got some interesting results.

                                         

                                        In Premiere Elements 8, without rendering in advance, the process took 6:29.

                                        In Premiere Elements 8, after pre-rendering, the process took 6:23 -- not enough difference to be significant.

                                         

                                        So I did the same test in Premiere Elements 7.

                                         

                                        Without pre-rendering, the process took 5:15.

                                        If I rendered the timeline first, though, the process took 1:35.

                                         

                                        My conclusion? The ability to use pre-rendered files is one of those features Adobe forgot to turn on in version 8. (Just the like the Normalize Audio feature.)

                                         

                                        In short, Hunt. I think we're both right!

                                        • 17. Re: Background rendering while encoding?
                                          the_wine_snob Level 9

                                          Steve,

                                           

                                          Thanks for sharing your tests. Interesting results. Now, I can only test on PrE 4, so things are pretty much moot with it.

                                           

                                          Your PrE 7 test shows significant improvement!

                                           

                                          Appreciated,

                                           

                                          Hunt

                                          • 18. Re: Background rendering while encoding?
                                            nealeh Level 5

                                            Steve Grisetti wrote:

                                             

                                            My conclusion? The ability to use pre-rendered files is one of those features Adobe forgot to turn on in version 8. (Just the like the Normalize Audio feature.)

                                             

                                            Astonishing - 8.0.2 ?

                                             

                                            Cheers,
                                            --
                                            Neale
                                            Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your children

                                            • 19. Re: Background rendering while encoding?
                                              the_wine_snob Level 9

                                              Neale! You might be rushing things a bit, eh? Remember, you just posted the download patch link for 8.0.1...

                                               

                                              Hey, it IS "job security" for PrE developers, right?

                                               

                                              Hunt