11 Replies Latest reply on Mar 31, 2010 8:42 AM by the_wine_snob

    HD Preset sees cropping or margins on HDready TVs.

    envirographics

      Premiere CS3

       

      I am desperate to resolve this apparent simple task.  I need to know, why does Premiers presets not fit HDready TV's ?

       

      See the results from three different TV’s further below.

       

      Just what should I make the width and height of a project (and what pixel aspect ratio ?) to have videos played on PAL dvd players fit a HD ready screen ?  I need to put stills into the video. What size and pixel aspect ratio should they be made ?

       

      The advice I followed sees margins and cropping. What other settings should I be choosing in Photoshop and then in Premiere and in TMPGenc ?

      I am using Pshop CS2 WinXP, I have an LCD monitor. Client has LCD HDready TV PAL. (Native res 1533 x 768px.)  the standard dvd video is to also play on friends LCD TVs. (they don’t have blueray players), all are dvd players with scart. People are buying LCD but keeping existing dvd players and thus using scart, picture quality is less than my Wega !

       

      Why don’t the suggested presets from another thread create videos that fit HDready screens ?

       

      I have need of making stills or video fit the screen of HD Ready TV’s (dont we all ?? !!!) and I am following advice that said use either 720x576 or 1280 x 720 or 1920x 1080 and ignore the screens default resolution. The 1920x1080 is the size of full HD TV’s and the 720x576 is not 16:9 ratio so probably intended for non HD Ready TV’s though I tried it anyway, picture quality on HDready was poor and it still saw cropping so it must be the 1280x720 then for the HDready.

       

      To test this out, I created a chart of 1280 x 720pixels Square pixels in photoshop, saving as tiff.

      It has a square grid of black lines on a white background (20 squares wide - each is thus 64pixels) and circles at left middle and right. At the sides are 5 pixel increment rulers heading into the chart with 0 at picture edge.

       

      We want our stills or video to fit the HD Ready screen without distortion.

      Thus the goal is to get the test image to fit the screen and see all edges as 0.

       

      I went New Project in Premiere and chose the suggested 1280 x 720 size 25fps which exists as a preset.

      Imported the tiff into the timeline. Made a video and authored it in TMPGencAuthoringWorks. It saw it as 720x576 and no options existed to make it otherwise. I chose Progressive.

       

      Playing it on DVD players connected to LCD TVs we get anything but a fit to screen ! Why ?

      Note they all are using scart, both shops and private TV’s. Would a HDMI enabled dvd player connected via hdmi see a fit with 0 at all four screen edges and perfect grid and circles, and no ghosting on the verticals, and the 1pixel zebra chart visible ?

       

      I also noticed that text created in premiere was of better quality than Photoshops text in the tiffs, which on the Panasonic had jpg type artefacts around it, but not on the Wega CRT. Why ?

       

       

       

      Panasonic HD Ready 32inch  scart DVD to TV.

      Auto     0 on all four sides so picture all in but with Black margins 3inch sides and 2 inch top/bottom.

      16:9     0 on all four sides so picture all in but with Black margins 3inch sides and 2 inch top/bottom.

      Zoom 1    0 and 0 left and right,  25 top and 20 bott, 4 inch wide black margins at sides.

      Zoom 2    0 and 0 left and right, 25 top and 20 bottom so some cropping, circles a little stretched north/south

      Zoom 3   0 and 0 left and right, 100 top and 100 bottom so 200 pixels lost in top/bott crop, circles heavily stretched north/south

      14:9   0 all four sides with 5inch black side margins and 1inch black top/bott margins, circle heavily stretched north/south

      4:3 though not an obvious choice for filling a 16:9 screen, gave 0 all round and 8inch black left/right and 2inch black top/bott.

      Best then was Zoom 2 but 40 pixels lost north/south.

       

       

      All vertical lines had ghosted lines either side, horiz lines ok.

       

       

       

      LG (LH2000) 42inch LCD  scart dvd to TV.

      16:9   0 all four sides with black margins. Circles slightly stretched north/south

      Full Wide   0 all fours sides with 3.5inch margins left/right and black margins top/bott.

      Zoom   0 at left, right and bott but 20 at top. Black margins at left, right and bott but not at top. Most odd ! Circle stretched north/south

      Original   0 all four sides and black margins 3.5 inch sides and 1.5 inch top/bott with Circles slightly stretched north/south.

       

       

      Again All vertical lines had ghosted lines either side, horiz lines ok.

       

       

       

      Samsung 32inch LCD scart dvd to TV.

      Margins measured also using the pixel ruler of the chart, though its obvious its been compressed, else e.g. the 1024px margins of 4:3 take up almost all the screen width which they don’t in fact.

      16:9   0 all four sides with black margins 202px wide at sides and 197px tall at top/bott. Circles distorted east/west.

      Zoom   0 all four sides with black margins 202px wide sides and 90px tall top/bott. Circles distorted north/south

      4:3   0 all four sides and black margins 512 pixels wide sides (6.25inches) and 240 pixels tall top/bott (3.25inch)

      Autowide    0 all four sides with black margins 202px wide sides and 250px tall (3.25inch) top/bott. Circles distorted east/west.

       

       

      Again All vertical lines had ghosted lines either side, horiz lines ok.

       

       

      A second chart featured zebra crossings (alternate black/white lines) vert and horiz orientated of sizes 1,2 3 and 4 pixel line weights. All TVs were able to show the 3 pixel sets, in that the 1 and 2 were blurred and one could see the 3 was alternate black/white, not pin sharp though but somewhat woolly !

       

       

       

      Playing the 720x576 Sq Pixel Interlaced chart :-

       

       

      Sony Wega digital CRT 42inch: (scart dvd to TV):-

       

      Smart   15left, 5 right, 54 top and 58 bottom with circles slight stretch middle east/west and more stretched for the outer ones. No Margins

      14:9   20 left  0 right, 60 top and bottom. Black margins at sides of 72px width left and 55px width right. Circles ok.

      Zoom   20 left, 14 right, 80 top and 85 bottom, No margins. circle ok middle and some stretch east/west for outer two.

      Wide   20 left, 13 right,  15 top and 24 bottom No Margins with all three circles stretched east/west.

      4:3    20 left, 0 right, 20 top and 25 bottom. Black margins at sides 128px width. Circles and grid almost perfect. Crazy though to be losing one side of image.

       

      No ghosting of vert lines.

       

       

       

      Panasonic LCD 32inch (same as in earlier test above..clients TV)

       

      Auto 0 sides and 30top, 15 bottom, circle distorted east/west. No black margins

      16:9   0 sides and 20 top, 15 bottom, circle distorted east/west. No black margins

      Zoom 1   0 sides 90 top, 85 bott no black margins, Circle OK

      Zoom 2   90 sides and 90 top, 85 bottom. Circle distorted east/west. No black margins

      Zoom 3   90 sides and 16 top and bottom. Circle slight distort north/south, quality poor.

      14:9   0 sides and 60 top, 55 bottom. Circle ok. Black margins sides (50pixel wide)

      4:3   0 sides and 20 top, 15 bott. Circle ok. Black margins sides 120px width (3inch)

       

      16:9 probably best but with cropping top and bott and distorted circles east/west so nothing here of use.

       

      Vert lines ghosted either side

       

       

      Nothing of any use.

       

       

      Envirographics

        • 1. Re: HD Preset sees cropping or margins on HDready TVs.
          Curt Wrigley Level 4

          You have to understand the difference between input and output.

           

          What determines you export frame size is obviously your export settings/preset.

           

          But what is Inside the frame is determined by your input.   You may be using a perfect export setting but your source video is filling only a portion of the frame.

           

           

          So; simplify a rather complex post like this:

           

          What is your source material?   Frame size, Frame rate, codec?

           

          Once you know that, choose a sequence preset or setting that matches it.  If you do; your source will fill the frame.   You can fill the frame with stills by simply saving them slight larger than the seq frame size and pan/zoom them to fill the frame.

           

          ONCE you have you project setup correcly this way; exporting it to HD is very easy.    How will you be viewing it?  Bluray or via a data file?

          • 2. Re: HD Preset sees cropping or margins on HDready TVs.
            Harm Millaard Level 7

            Do you think Hollywood makes DVD's specifically for a certain type of TV? Can you go to a shop and say I want that movie, but I need the version for this TV? No way. Can you imagine exchanging your whole DVD collection because you got a new TV?

             

            What you are seeing is a limitation of the scaler in the TV. Just accept that. Or get another TV.

             

            DVD's and BRD's have a standardized format. No way around it.

            • 3. Re: HD Preset sees cropping or margins on HDready TVs.
              shooternz Level 6
              DVD's and BRD's have a standardized format. No way around it.

               

              Well stated. " That's about the size of it"

              • 4. Re: HD Preset sees cropping or margins on HDready TVs.
                envirographics Level 1

                Curt,

                Thanks so much,

                My input is stills which don't have a codec or preformed size, they are digital slr raw files and far greater width and height px than any output size until the world goes superHD !...so an obvious preset to suit source material isn't forthcoming to my newbie mind, adding to my confusion !

                I need to know what size to resample them to, as Photoshop does a better job than premiere at such as often told and I certainly would believe. Thats my first obstacle, what width and height should they be and what pixel aspect ratio if being shown on a HDready TV ? I need to consider then the output size and make them either exactly that or a bit larger and let premiere still get involved in a further resizing, I would prefer to make them a size not requiring premiere to do resizing, so maximising quality.

                 

                I have now realised following your post that I can influence the output size and target device, also helped by a chance find of a tutorial video link in the help menu about workflow. This might sound dumb but having created my masterpiece in the timeline, going File>Export and seeing 'Movie' I went for that, having done so a few times now and had perfectly fine results for standard TV's, for that is what the end result is, is it not, a movie, it makes an avi file...my eye was naturally drawn to what I felt was the aptly named option we should go for, placed at top of list as such things often are, .....but no, foot of the list is something less obvious to the newbie brain, which I now understand is the correct choice for my needs, Adobe Media Encoder, AND THAT HAS THE MYRIAD OF OPTIONS WE CAN USE TO DICTATE THE OUTPUT FILE....doh !

                 

                So now faced with MPEG2 and MPEG2-DVD and options for the latter like PAL Progressive Widescreen High Quality which yields 720 x 576 from an input set of stills 1280 x 720 (sq pixel) I now start to ponder on what I should choose for someone with a HDready LCD TV currently using scart from dvd player to the TV. What would be best please ?

                 

                If he were to get a HDMI lead and connect the dvd player (which has hdmi output..yes...trying to encorage him to do so !!!) to the 1533x768 native resolution TV, should I choose MPEG2 and HDTV 720p 25 Medium Quality giving quality 3 and 1280 x 720 pixel output ? I am still a little confised on the fact that such settings are of a lesser pixel width and height than HD ready TV's have. If it was a HD TV then the 1080p 25 High Quality yielding 1920 x  1080 would be the choice.

                 

                If he were to heed my advice and get HDMI from dvd player to TV, should I create 1920x1080 stills, use the input preset matching that, (do I need to alter pixels to another aspect other than square in pshop...still puzzles me..any help here ???) and choose MPEG2 and HDTV 720p 25 Medium Quality output.

                 

                But what of his friends with scart ?  What TVs will make use of the 1280x720 options Premiere has for output ?

                 

                Harm...Scalers etc, I can buy a dvd and it fits the screen, I make one and its got black margins and distortion, just need to know the output size to go for to see a Hollywood type fit.

                 

                Envirographics

                • 5. Re: HD Preset sees cropping or margins on HDready TVs.
                  Curt Wrigley Level 4

                  How do you wish to show your project on an HDTV?

                   

                  The two ways to deliver HD content to an HDTV are Bluray or a datafile deliverd with a computer.

                   

                  If bluray; your choices are restricted to the bluray standard.  Easy.  Choose one.

                   

                  You mentioned DVD or upscaling.   This isnt HD.  This is delivering Sd video and allowing sw or hw to upscale it for you.  It upscales but it will not look as good as native hd resolution.  If its 16:9 aspa=ect ratio it should fill the screen.  But filling the screen by stretching looks bad.

                   

                   

                  delivering via PC:  the most common format is probably H.264.  Choose an HD preset for this format.

                  • 6. Re: HD Preset sees cropping or margins on HDready TVs.
                    Harm Millaard Level 7

                    Hollywood PAL DVD is 720 x 576 in a 25i wrapper, non-square pixel. It may be p material, but is still wrapped in interlaced format. It can be 16 x 9 or 4 x 3 and the PAR is adjusted accordingly.

                    • 7. Re: HD Preset sees cropping or margins on HDready TVs.
                      envirographics Level 1

                      Hi, Thanks for the advice.

                       

                      How do you wish to show your project on an HDTV?.

                      Client has dvd player (not bluray capable) via scart and hopefully soon a hdmi lead.

                       

                      Currently  tried 1280 x 720 square pixel images created in photoshop (hence sq pixels) to suit the input preset of PAL 1280 x 720  25fps Square Pixel and going File>Export>Adobe Media Encoder and choosing MPEG2-DVD and  PAL Progressive Widescreen High Quality which yields 720 x 576. This seemed suitable for a non HD playing device. It looked good on screen in TMPGencAuthoringWorks. Am I right in saying people buying LCD HDready TV's need to get a new dvd player capable of HD so as to make the most of the image quality of their TV ? Most seem to buy LCD and plumb them into their existing dvd players !

                      As the dvd player is not capable of bluray output, choosing this seemed logical BUT trying out all screen aspect settings on the Panasonic LCD HDready TV sees the following cropping of our 1280x720 test image with grid and circles, the cropping we got is simply unacceptable. (192 left /right means 192 on each side totalling 384)

                      On a plus note, quality improved, now seeing horiz black/white lines 1 pixel line weight, vert ones were a little woolly though. 2px test lines were ok. Thats an improvement over only 3 beijg best. Finding the Adobe Media Encoder has seen some benefit !

                      Auto  55 left /right ( that’s 8.6% lossage) and 25 top and 20 bott (6.25% lossage), Circles OK

                      16:9  ditto

                      Zoom 1  55 left /right (8.6%) and 105 top/bott (29% lossage) Circles stretched vert

                      Zoom 2    192 left /right (30%) and 100 top/bott (27%) Circles ok

                      Zoom 3   192 left/right (30%) and 168 top/bott (47%) ..a disaster !

                      14:9   55 left/right with black margins each 96px ,  75top and 65 bott (19%) Circles stretched vert.

                      4:3   55 left/right with black margins each 192, 25top and 20 bott (6.25%) Circles stretched vert.

                      Auto and 16:9 best but we ned to see 0 on all four sides else we are losing people out of the picture ! ...or should we add black margins to it ! ?

                       

                      Any answers to the following gratefully received.

                      What should I choose for PAL dvd video to HDreadyTV. ?

                      1) Pixel width and height of still (tiff) ?

                      2) Pixel aspect ratio of still (tiff) ?

                      3) Preset for input source or custom setting and what to choose ?

                      4) Adobe Media Encoder output settings:-

                           a) MPEG2 or MPEG2-DVD

                           b)  PAL option ..which one to pick with regards pixel width/height, fps, interlacing or progressive, quality effect on pixels and our desired goal ?

                           c) or custom output and what ?

                       

                      Envirographics.

                       

                       

                       

                       

                      • 8. Re: HD Preset sees cropping or margins on HDready TVs.
                        Harm Millaard Level 7

                        Why don't you maske it easy for yourself and for others? Your posts would be much easier to understand if your leave out all this stuff about HD or HDReady TV's. That is completely irrelevant. As is the type of connection. The only thing relevant is whether you use DVD or BRD as delivery format. That determines the resolution and PAR you need to use. Everything else is just confusing the issue.

                         

                        Use PS to adjust all your stills to either DVD or BRD compliant size and PAR.

                        • 9. Re: HD Preset sees cropping or margins on HDready TVs.
                          envirographics Level 1

                          Harm Millaard wrote:

                           

                          Why don't you maske it easy for yourself and for others? Your posts would be much easier to understand if your leave out all this stuff about HD or HDReady TV's. That is completely irrelevant. As is the type of connection. The only thing relevant is whether you use DVD or BRD as delivery format. That determines the resolution and PAR you need to use. Everything else is just confusing the issue.

                           

                          Use PS to adjust all your stills to either DVD or BRD compliant size and PAR.

                           

                          ok,

                          Normally posters get asked for more gen, never supplying enough gen for people to work with. I now note the fact that his TV being HD ready makes no difference, its the source media thats important, Thanks.

                           

                          rewording my post :-

                           

                          I wish to make a DVD-video (not BRD) for a 16:9 type of TV. PAL. (it is HDready but thats irrelevant I now understand in this case)

                           

                          Currently I have tried 1280 x 720 square pixel images created in photoshop (sq pixels) choosing input preset PAL 1280 x 720  25fps Square Pixel and I am going File>Export>Adobe Media Encoder and choosing MPEG2-DVD and PAL Progressive Widescreen High Quality which yields 720 x 576.

                          Result when played sees cropping at sides of 55 pixels (8.6% loss) and 25top/20bott (6.25%). No distortion to mention. Auto and 16:9 give this. Other options were worse.

                          What alterations should I do in Pshop to improve on this ?

                          Suggestions on particular Pshop settings are sought, should anyone have experienced similar issues and resolved the problem.

                          Confirmation that my input and output choices are correct are also sought.

                           

                          I now hope the above can focus replies on what tweaks I need to do.

                           

                          Envirographics

                          • 10. Re: HD Preset sees cropping or margins on HDready TVs.
                            Harm Millaard Level 7

                            A far better approach would be to export from PS with 720 x 576 resolution and a PAR that reflects either 16 x 9 or 4 x 3 footage. The scaler in PS is much better than in PR.

                            • 11. Re: HD Preset sees cropping or margins on HDready TVs.
                              the_wine_snob Level 9

                              When working in PS, I will use the Image>New Image, and choose the appropriate Preset, say NTSC 720x480 (my case) WideScreen (16:9) PAR=1.212, w/ Guides. PS makes this very easy, as it has most of the Video format, including PAR, in an existing Preset already.

                               

                              Then, I have everything that is needed. If I am doing any compositing, I will do it to that image. If I am doing Titles, again to that image. When done, I will Save_As .PSD, to be Imported into PrPro.

                               

                              Only exceptions, that I can think of, would be if I need to Pan on a Zoomed out image, or if I was doing a very long Roll for a Title. Then, I use the Canvas and add whatever pixels, I will need for that image. Even with the Pan & Zoom, I'll try to calculate my required movement, so that I can Scale in PS to exactly what I will need in PrPro, rather than let the NLE do any Scaling. I agree with Harm, that the Scaling algorithms in PS are superior, plus the offer much more control with settings like Bicubic Smoother, Bicubic Sharper, etc.

                               

                              Hope that this helps,

                               

                              Hunt