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I can under stand the concern of a exact copy (name, tags, colors) but if some one copies just one or part of any swatch such as the tags, I don't know if I disagree with that. The tags by them self are merely adjectives for the colors. As for the name I think it depends on the swatch. Example if some one copied "sun set" as a name of a swatch then I would say it generic in it's self, but if I named a swatch "joshchernoff" and some one else made a swatch named "joshchernoff" then there's a problem. As for the colors this is complicated as there will all ways be an argument from the makers of the swatch. After all can you say that you made "0x000000". of course not but does that mean you should not be allowed to use it? I think the fundamental practice of uploading a swatch is to share it in the first place and no not try to get popular or recognition from it. So expect other to take from your ideas and claim it as there own. Other wise don't share you swatch with others in a public domain if you plan on limiting and or controlling the use of it. And that is why kuler has a private section for it's users.
Even with all that said there is a report button buy the comment area.
Originally posted by: j.chernoff I think the fundamental practice of uploading a swatch is to share it in the first place and no not try to get popular or recognition from it. So expect other to take from your ideas and claim it as there own. Other wise don't share you swatch with others in a public domain if you plan on limiting and or controlling the use of it. And that is why kuler has a private section for it's users.
first: did I not say "I can understand the concern of an exact copy"
Second: TAGS? come on. it's one thing to cry about some one copying your name and colors but, tags really? don't you think your over reacting? After all I don't believe it says any where here that you own the rights to the tags as they are meant for categorizing content.. Please don't ruin it for others because you cant keep things you value secure. Please practice common sense. And no that's not directed at you isotope151, I mean every one who will come after you that will say some one stole from them. because that's what this will lead to.
You really should not provide content FREELY to the public in a public domain if you don't wish for others to use it ("that includes stealing it"). Even then I do agree that it's wrong ethically and maybe even criminally to take credit for other peoples work. And yes if some one here takes a swatch you or any one else made and then just slapped their name on it, that is wrong too. But just remember that this hole site is based off of sharing ideas and content alike so you really should not be that attached to the ideas and content you provide here.
Bottom line: True I don't want to see people stealing others hard work, yet I really don't want to see this site go the way controlling the users to the point it's no longer useful. Only bad thing will come of trying to secure rights to simple ideas such as colors and tags. This reminds me of how colourLover said that kuler was steeling their ideas. I think most should be happy that adobe is acknowledging the user as an author in the first place as they don't have to if they don't want to...
And once again.
entirely stealing ones hole swatch ("colors, name and tags in it's entirety) is wrong and will most likely be dealt with by the team.
Use the Add Comment on the color that you think is being stole from you
and use the "report a concern" button and provide detailed info about your problem. but please don't abuse that as it is just as easy to abuse the system as it is to steal from a user.
And as far as the question of tags is concerned, you may be surprised to find out that some people actually put some thought into their tags. It can be used merely a categorization tool, which can still get jacked up if someone uses your category incorrectly, but many times people use the tags as a creative way to showcase or explain their colors. Look at caro's themes for an example! You cannot think she doesn't put creative thought behind these tags. Sure, using a simple color name like "green" is not going to cause a problem, and really, most of the individual tags in themselves will likely not be much of an issue. The question is really deciding when it becomes obvious that someone has gone and copied another's work. The tags are part of that equation, and are clearly included as part of a "user submission" as highlighted in the relevant passage of the TOU, below.
6. User Submissions.
a. You may use the Service to create color swatches or other materials, including written materials, and upload or publish via Service ("User Submissions"). If you create and publish a User Submission, then you grant to Adobe an irrevocable, worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, license to use, modify, reproduce, publicly perform and display, and distribute the User Submission. In addition, you grant to users of the Service a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free license to use, reproduce, publicly perform and display, and distribute the User Submission. The foregoing license does not grant Adobe or any user of the Service any ownership rights in any User Submissions. You retain all ownership rights in your User Submissions.
The reason I brought this up at all is that the "Report Concern" feature appears to be only applicable to concerns about abusive comments. If this is the correct way to report other concerns, then I would like to know from an Adobe representative. Until this issue has been addressed, I have decided to take your advice, Josh, and squirrel away most of my work to my private space on the site.
First, concerns can be brought up either as Report a Concern or in the kuler talk forum, which gives an opportunity to have some discussion around the question.
It seems like a good opportunity to consider some of these issues around themes, as we do want to encourage people to contribute and share their work on the site for everyone's benefit. Stay tuned :-)
By experience I have learned that complaints are really not worth it to me in my opinion, it is just a waste of your own time and energy. If I catch it I just write a comment on the scheme that appears to be a copy of one of mine, and let karma handle the rest.
God has not let me down yet. :)
I usually can't shut up anyhow, so here's my view of the whole thing. Today someone duplicated my Watermelon theme several times in a row. In all the copies they only changed one color on the far right. They also used my description word for word. It made me a little upset. If it had been one time I would have ignored it because most people who do it are very ignorant of artistic respect. But this was four times in a row.
So, when this happens, where do you draw the line? Do you say, "Oh well, it's only digital swatches. No big deal..."
I don't. This is clearly plagarism and violates kuler tos. People should read the tos before using the system. I did.
I think it is okay to use a theme and change it as long as it is no longer recognizable to the original theme. I do that. But I alter it so you don't know where it is from. If I can do that, so can others. It's not asking for very much. It's pretty easy.
I have decided to tell people (as nicely as possible) that with the exception of the common names of colors, the title and tags should be redone in their own language. After that, their choice of color needs to be different enough to look like a whole new theme.
Maybe this seems petty in some ways. After all, it isn't an oil painting. I have been painting for 35 years and spent a lot of money for my art degree. I feel as an artist that the effort I put into my paintings and the effort I put into kuler have a common element that needs common respect.
Behind every theme is thought and consideration that took a long time and a lot of money to develop. That is what I want respect for. And I think that is what others on Kuler want respect for too. The thought and creativity required to put forth any work of art costs the artist something. I am trying to speak for my fellow artists as much as for myself here.
So, please understand how artists feel about their efforts. This is our thing. And we want to have a measure of control and voice in how it is utilized.
Aside from that, I honestly want to add how grateful I am for Kuler. It is a very wonderful gift from Adobe. At least that is how I see it.
Cat you make some excellent points, actually - a lot of them I had not even thought of. Aside from tags I do think it is STEALING.
In fact, you make such a good argument that you inspired me to complain here in the forum about the obvious copy isotope made of my "Autumned III" swatch.
Conveniently enough, he created his "Autumn (an Empire)" the day after I created my "Autumned III". As soon as I saw it it was easy to see where this came from, me.
So I took a screen shot of both and overlayed his over mine in Fireworks and it is as clear as day that it is a copy.
Now, 1 month ago I thought "ahh I'll just make a comment on his theme and leave it at that". well it just so happens that almost immmediately after my comment on his swatch isotope creates this thread. Trying to be clever and cover himself? Perhaps, but that just shows how guilty you really are.
Today I feel differently on the matter because his swtach got over 26 downloads when mine got 3.
I am flattered that you felt the need to steal my idea and colors, really I am isotope, but I am also disgusted with how low people go for recognition.
You do not deserve that recognition for that swatch and I am making sure everyone knows that!
My swatch: Autumned III
Isotope's swatch: Autumn (an Empire)
If anyone would like to see the file where I overlayed his colorwheel over mine, please send me a PM with your email, I would be more than happy to send it to you.
Don't flatter yourself. You need to know, first off, that I routinely ignore your colors because I do not have the time or patience to study, in detail, the hundreds of color sets you produce ad nauseam.
I did not steal anything. Never have I used another theme for a template. NOT ONCE. I have a real problem with the fact that this is even available as an option, as it only invites the opportunity to plagiarize. Any similarity of my theme to yours is purely coincidental. As I am sure any similarity of your theme to "Ocean Sunset" by koralute is purely coincidental. The reason I started this thread was to vent my frustration at the fact that some one-note named "laura" copied my "Arctic Equinox" theme.
To set the record straight, this is how I came up with my scheme... I was working on titles that were puns of the word Autumn (Autumn Attic, Autumn Motive, Autumn (an Empire), etc.) For my Autumn (an Empire) theme, I chose the coat of arms of the Ottoman Empire (get it?) as inspiration. Look at the colors in the Ottoman Empire coat of arms. LOOK AT THEM! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:OttomanCoatOfArms.png They are the same colors I used in my theme. Hence, the TAGS I CHOSE.
You make sweeping accusations like this, without looking at my portfolio, not having any clue as to what I do with this site. I am obviously capable of coming up with my own work. You, dear, are the pathetic attention monger.
Judging by the activity on kuler talk and the report a concern link, it’s a good time to work on some community guidelines - as a community. As I mentioned earlier on this thread, we do want to encourage contribution and sharing, as well as inspiration from others. I’ll post a topic on Monday about this to kick off a discussion in one area, and we can hear some perspectives and ideas.
I realize there has been growing frustration over issues like this, so I’m asking everyone to assume most people who contribute to kuler are coming from a reasonable place, and to approach the guidelines discussion with that mindset.
I am a noob here. Just got on yesterday and I have to say that this is a very helpful (and fun) tool. I definitely have something to say on this topic. Please see the comments below, they are a conversation that started with a presumptious user not minding his business and ASSUMING that my partner had copied someone's swatch. It happened to be that it was my theme that I created and published it for her to look at and change if necessary. So then someone else jumps in with their two cents. They apparently were trying to help the situation, but really if someone copies (or you think they copied) your theme complain to the kuler team and call them out directly if you want to, but if it is someone else who has nothing to do with you or your themes then myob. It makes other not want to publish anything on here if people who do not know you, your ethics or your intentions jump in and make presumptious comments.
This is how it started and ended...
Duplicating another artists swatches goes against Kuler tos. Even if you only change one color. It's highly inconsiderate.
We are part of the same team and are just working out a color swatch so pls myob.
Finally figured out how to remove the other one. Whooohooo!
[other not so presumptious guy]
you don't have to work it out in public, you can publish it when it's done and hopefully looking more original. At the least explain in your initial comment what you're doing and everything will be cool :)
Let's see, we were considering both color schemes so your suggestion would not work, and it was not your color scheme so why so worried about someone else's business? How about if you guys just judge the color scheme and forget what we are doing. If you think it sucks give it 1 star, if you think it is great give it 5. If you have a comment about the color scheme please also leave that. But if it has to do with ethics, leave it at the door because the person that made the first comment made assumptions that he/she should not have made. Working it out in the backend would require extra steps that we do not want to take. Let us use the tool how we want to use it as long as we are not stealing your themes. If I steal one of your themes, PLS call me out about it, otherwise, myob. People always want to assume and then when their assumption is wrong they still want to blame you. :|
And also to touch on the "comments" thing. I have only been on this thing for a day so it is safe to say I am still getting familiar with it. I did not think about leaving comments on my stuff until I read the FAQs.
And one more thing, 'other not so presumptious guy', some of your color schemes are stunning! I can smile to that. ;)
[other not so presumptious guy]
let me reassure you my comment was not made to slag you in any way. I was just feeling bad about the way it happened and only meant to give you an idea about how we can all better get along on this site given all the angst that's been passed around lately about stolen themes. You're probably just a victim of bad timing. There's going to be a lot of discussion around this whole problem in the forum next week so please join in.
This is what she wrote directly to that person on their page:
In reference to: "Duplicating another artists swatches goes against Kuler tos. Even if you only change one color. It's highly inconsiderate."I appreciate you going out on a limb for another artist, but you should have gotten the facts straight. That happens to be one of my partners and we are working on a color scheme. She just did not know how to remove it. But thanks for the tip on ethics. ;)
NOTE: Yes she was being sarcastic with my thanks for the ethics tip)
And here is an exploit that I find could be used to "steal" or better said take credit for a theme that is not yours. I will use a hypothetical example.
I create a theme today, whatever nothing special and not publish it. You come along and create a fantastic theme. I take down the Hex and go back to my not so hot theme that I created two days before you. I throw your hex code on there, publish it and it seems as though my theme was there before yours because it goes by the day you created it not the day you published or edited it. I wonder how many people have figured that out, because then people can steal and falsely accuse others.
I am sure the Adobe folks have access to check edits NC, in fact I wish they would because it would make my case stronger.
Never have a problem with people taking my themes and playing with them to come out with something different. But when it comes down to a competition and clearly lying, not to mention something I could use on my resume - you better believe I will fight for what is rightfully mine.
I may be very nice and helpful, but I am not stupid and I will most certainly not be taken advantage of.
Hey there, "not so presumptious guy" here (I hope that doesn't mean I'm boring)! There's no doubt tensions are running high on this topic and now we're in trouble with teacher!
Marxmen, welcome to the wonderful world of kuler. You and your partner cs just happen to be jumping in at a particularly interesting time in the history of the site. Trust me to decide to wade in at the wrong moment (lol@boyd). I hope to get involved in the forum that Sami is posting on Monday(even though it's Thanksgiving here in Canada and I'll be busy trying to bag a turkey from the window of my igloo). Hopefully everybody with an issue will join in for some serious discussion and we can all get past this point with some clarity.
Actually find you quite unboring, like I said most of your color schemes are STUNNING. I can tell you that there were only about 5 that I did not like out of the 100+. You rock. ;) I know you were trying to help now, but it just seemed as if you were siding with the other dude. I figured they are probably buddies cause they have been on the site a long time. I was wrong maybe. ;)
I am 100% sure they can check, but do we want this to become such a burden on then that they maybe even decide that having the site live is too much trouble? That would be tragic, this tool is amazing.
I just came across a theme from a newbier newb than me and it looks identical in composition but the colors were lightened, check this out and tell me what you guys think. Did I get copied? This is just a test. I am not too worried about it because I know what I created and I think it is much better. It could actually be a coincidence, but this is a great example to see how everyone interprets this. Mine is the top one (African Sunset) I added I think on the 5th. The bottom one (Sexytime Explosion) was added today.
Check it out here:
Is">http://nightshiftcreative.com/IsItACopy.jpg[L=Is this a copy? Click here.
Originally posted by: Marxmen
I am 100% sure they can check, but do we want this to become such a burden on then that they maybe even decide that having the site live is too much trouble? That would be tragic, this tool is amazing.
Yes I agree this tool is amazing - But it is also unfair to me. I should not let it go because I have done nothing but create a great theme.
For everyday use I have never had a problem sharing alike, but this is a competition that will have the Adobe/Kuler logo on it. I should not have to miss out because of other users wrong doing.
The proof is clear, 2 of the handles are identically aligned. What are the odds one day after I create mine he comes up with this theme. And to top it off he tries to defend himself by accusing me of doing same with someone else's theme, then calls me an attention monger because I am productive. He claims to not have time to study my swatches, but yet he knows how many I have. Come on, there is guilt written all over his reply to me and it is plain as day, I should not have to suffer for it.
No one should ever have to suffer for what someone else did.
Marxmen, thank you for trying to bring peace to this situation, and trust me I want nothing but peace around here - but don't you think you should be directing your question at isotope and not me?
but this is a great example to see how everyone interprets this.
No offense Marx, but no it is not lol. Look at both color wheels the handles are opposite.
PM me your email and I will send you isotope's color wheel overlayed on mine, so you can see what I mean.
-Everyday use should remain live, but competitions should not be live - they should be submitted or uploaded where no one else could see them until the results are in. I am sure this is only the first of many issues to come with competitions if they remain live, unfortunately.
Like I said in my first message. I think it is a great idea to confront the person directly so what you told Isotope is cool with me, you did not jump in about someone elses color theme it was yours - you have every right to defend your own. My problem was with this dude that jumped in outta nowhere with misinformation.
I think competition submissions should for sure be private submissions that no one else can see. I just got on here before yesterday, so I did not even know there was a contest. :)
I can not speculate even by looking at screenshots whether it is true or not. Only Kuler Team can prove that if they can trace that he clicked on your theme and then made some changes and republished.
I was not directing the question at you directly. I just hit reply and put it there for everyone to respond, just like with the sample.
As far as the sample, I used it as an example. I could care less if he did copy it because of several reasons, but I wanted to show how two random people could come up with a similar color scheme and wanted to hear everyone's opinion on that as an example because different people would interpret it differently. But I will tell you that it does not matter about the color wheel. All I have to do is move the slides to get the color wheel to change. Basically, someone could have grabbed mine, clicked to edit, move the sliders around some and gotten the color wheel to look much different. (Maybe they should consider removing the edit button when it is not your own theme to make it harder to copy) BUT PLS try it, you will see what I mean. But regardless, I just wanted to see how many people would say yes copy or no copy. Anyone else have an opinion?
I think that the most important thing as an artist is that I know that what i created was original and my idea unless it is a collab. BUT I totally agree when it is competition GAME ON and that should for sure be more regulated so there is no question about originality. I'm with you on that, uploads for competitions private until voting time, no submissions, no edits after voting begins.
But anyways, go to my profile (search for marxmen) and check out one I just did as a test. I will delete it after you tell me you saw it. I straight copied it from one of yours, but moved the sliders around a bit and removed your tags to make it look like my own. Would you consider that copying or getting inspired? That is my only question and it is for everyone not just Pinta. I just used one of her themes cause we already have a conversation going. ;) Let me know your thoughts on this.
Originally posted by: Marxmen
Only Kuler Team can prove that if they can trace that he clicked on your theme and then made some changes and republished.
All they need is a click from him on my swatch, that will prove that he is lying about "studying" my swatch. Heck I hope I am wrong it would restore my faith in humanity, and if I am wrong I would not have a problem apologizing to him in this very forum.
As far as the sample, I used it as an example. I could care less if he did copy it because of several reasons, but I wanted to show how two random people could come up with a similar color scheme and wanted to hear everyone's opinion on that as an example because different people would interpret it differently. But I will tell you that it does not matter about the color wheel. All I have to do is move the slides to get the color wheel to change. Basically, someone could have grabbed mine, clicked to edit, move the sliders around some and gotten the color wheel to look much different. (Maybe they should consider removing the edit button when it is not your own theme to make it harder to copy) BUT PLS try it, you will see what I mean."
I did not know if you move the order of the swatches the color wheel changes. In any case, yeah I know two random people could come up with the same swatch, it has happened to me published within one minute. Of course that could happen. But this is a contest and no one should let it go by if a swatch appears as a copy of theirs. I have seen too many good people get shafted that way.
uploads for competitions private until voting time, no submissions, no edits after voting begins.
There you go - perfect! Definitely.
I straight copied it from one of yours, but moved the sliders around a bit and removed your tags to make it look like my own. Would you consider that copying or getting inspired?
In my opinion, if it is a contest you should be disqualified for copying my idea. Everyday swatches? No biggie.
A contest is so people could show what they got. If you copied me then you don't "got" a thing.
I also think that for contests on here names should be withheld until winners are announced. Another thing I noticed is it is also a popularity contest. Nothing personal to anyone on here, but I am not here to make friends - I am here to create swatches. I noticed that some people have a problem with that, I don't do it because I think I am better than anyone else, I just had a bad experience on the internet, and will not make friends with anyone online again. If that bothers anyone, then just don't click on my stars, but please keep your comments to yourself.
No worries. I am not trying to make any friends here either. Named withheld added to the list. So we have: contest entries loaded on a different db that is not available to anyone until voting time. No edits or submissions after voting time begins and names withheld until winner announced. Sounds good to me, hopefully it sounds good to the Kuler Team.
Hello, everyone. What immaculate timing, eh?
I thought that I would weigh in on the issue, but with a different direction in mind...
My impression of Kuler is that it's become a little bit of everything, outside of its original intent: a creative source for color. Since the beginning of 2007, I've seen it become somewhat of a networking site, a source for inspiration, critique, competition and at some point, perhaps it's considered a popularity contest. Like everyone else passionate about their creations, I felt a bit violated upon seeing my own themes copied when I first started. Looking back, I've done some pretty bad stuff, but I was very eager to keep going! At this point, I realized that it was something that I would have very little control over, so I separated myself from the issue. I then realized that it challenged me to create better themes because of it– better, in a sense of my own opinion. Better, in the direction of where I wanted to go...
I love Kuler and it happened to come at an ideal time for me. Color was an area that I needed to explore. I knew very little about it (conceptually) going into Kuler, but I feel like it has enabled me to grow as an artist, an illustrator and/or a designer (I consider myself more of a designer than anything at this stage in my career).
As far as addressing the issue of ownership, I'm interested to know what the creators of Kuler make of it– if it were to go down that path. More so, what solutions are on the table (if any)? Much like my own path, I look forward to seeing how Kuler will grow because of it!
All Your Theme Are Belong To Us!!
this discussion grew far too verbose and the claims about 'stolen' combos, made above, are truly pathetic.
There are meanwhile hundreds of 1 to 1 steals -- maybe one hexnumber was changed by few points, but that makes it still a steal. There are even folders that consist only of steals, for example that of Valdiviezocarlos.
Nearly every combo from the first pages of the Highest Rated and the Popular list was stolen multiple times -- then decorated with stars and downloaded by clueless members.
The absolute runner is 'Red and smooth' -- a steal by info -- to be seen on page 1 at the Popular list. It even outran it's original 'Halow Summer '06' which was created by jody.daub some months earlier.
All above must appear rather confusing to Newbies, as it confused me mightily when I arrived at Kuler. This unfortunate circumstance invites most probably more steals, since people tend to think "if others do it, so can I."
Here is what I vote for:
— such steals should be reported to the Kuler Team
— then blackened or grayed
— and the stars-, as well as the download-feature, should be disabled
— an added standard message would explain why the colors are gone
— the message "You must change at least 1 color before you can save this theme" is utterly misleading. People should not be incited to save ANY combo they didn't create themselves. It simply should be no option.
Just an idea: "Public Pool"
how about a playground for Newbies? In form of a "Public Pool." A folder that contains a sufficiant number of combos -- free to copy or tweak forever -- just as exercise material. Maybe 300-500 combos.
I have over 200 combos , which I removed from my folder over the time. Many of them got nice ratings, but their downloads kept stuck at a low number and since I didn't want to clutter the lists with stuff, that seemed in no demand, I took them off the site. Meanwhile trends have changed, but I will never publish them again, since my folder is always cluttered with new sketches -- and for every one of them that I publish, I create two new ones ... darn thing! These sketches act like a Hydra!
Anyhow, I would gladly submit the better ones that fell over the cliff, as I'm sure there are other members who would do so. I believe, none of us would be disturbed to see these combos under another name and the Newbies might turn them into great stuff. That could even add to the fun. The author of the submitted combos would nowhere appear. I would be just a neutral word, something like "Public Pool" or whatever.
In exchange, the feature to save combos from other member's folders gets disposed. No more access to other's "merchandise."
What would be the common opinion about such an arrangement? I cannot imagine, this would cause too much trouble to the software authors of Kuler.
I have posted kuler community guidelines . Please feel free to post suggestions there.
Regarding this topic, there is a "ceasefire" in place on any more discussion about stolen themes, tags, etc. Thanks everyone for respecting that.
This topic is closed.