Forgot to mention...... this is in PE 7. Thanks!
If you are Exporting/Sharing to DV-AVI Type II w/ 48KHz 16-bit PCM/WAV Audio and Recompress is NOT checked, you should not be able to see any difference, when you Import that DV-AVI into a new Project. Note: Recompress is usually checked by default - uncheck it. Do NOT Export/Share as MPEG-2, as burning to DVD will add another MPEG-2 Transcode to the mix and you WILL see a major difference.
Good luck, and hope that helps,
Thanks very much Bill!
I'll look for where the option for that setting might be found, and try that.
Honestly, more often than not, I have preferred
to export it as an mpeg2, so that it will remain
in the DVD format "range", without consuming as
much real estate as the .avi, since I often need
to retain the exported files for a long time (and
ultimately, there are quite a few of such!). I
recall, that, when I used to use Pinnacle Studio,
the mpeg2 export re-burned flawlessly, so I was
thinking that Adobe, (being superior!) would
probably also have some method of accomplishing
the same. If there is a way, that would, as well, be great to know!
If you Export/Share to MPEG-2 (fully DVD-compliant settings - VERY important), and then Import that resultant file into an authoring program, like DVD Architect, or Adobe Encore, those programs will not Transcode, so you are good to go. Now, depending on the size and number of these files being used on the DVD, and whether you are doing a DVD-5, or a DVD-9, you might need to do bit-budgeting with a bit-rate calculator, to establish the bit-rate high enough, but not too high, to fit the material onto the DVD.
If you are Importing that MPEG-2 file into an NLE (there are some exceptions here - Google of "smart encoding"), and are then authoring to DVD, as one would with PrE, the program will Transcode to MPEG-2 all over again, adding another level of compression, to the detriment of the footage.
If I have to create an intermediate file, I will often use the Lagarith Lossless CODEC for the transfer file.
Hope that this helps and good luck,
Sure, and thanks again Bill. Yes, it's clearly a
transcoding issue, apparently also effectuating a
frame rate mismatch of sorts. I'll try your
suggestion, and appreciate that (although, at
first glance, I didn't see where the options
were, that included those settings for
recompress, etc., in preferences or
elsewhere)! Do you happen to know quickly,
without having to take a lot of your time, where they are located in PE7?
When one chooses to Share AVI and then choose the DV-AVI the Recompress should be on that dialog screen. Now, I have PrE 4, so DV-AVI was a bit of a different animal, and usually accessed via File>Export, and now its all in Share.
Thanks Bill, and sorry again to bother you. I
found it in 7, however, it is under
File/Export/Settings, which is not directly
connected to the method of creating the AVI or
MPEG2 in that version. The question is, do we
know for a fact when unchecking recompress in
that menu (since we don't use that for file
creation in PRE7, but rather the "sharing"
command instead), that this setting will
positively cause the AVI produced through the
"Sharing" menu to respond to the
"no-recompression" setting designated in a
totally different area of the program?
Additionally, once set under
File/Export/Video/Settings, will PRE7 remember
the no-recompression setting permanently for
every render from that point on forward, or is
there a circumstance in which we would need to go
through all those steps (between the 2 totally separate command areas) again?
I wish that I could tell you. I do not have PrE 7, or PrE 8, so I cannot even check. Maybe another subscriber can shed some light on this.
No problem at all! You've been super, and I
appreciate all your great suggestions!!!!!!
I wouldn't worry too much about recompression, The only time you'll see a major effect is if you put an AVI into a project, export it as an AVI, then put that AVI into a project and export an AVI from that, etc. It just saves some breakdown that occurs after several generations of uncompressing and recompressing.
So, no, I wouldn't expect that turning off recompression in one area of the program to affect how the program Shares your AVI. (Your MPEG will ALWAYS be recompressed, since there is no smart rendering to MPEG in Premiere Elements.) But it also won't make much difference in the quality of your output -- and it likely has nothing to do with your jittery playback.
Thanks very much Steve. In that case, what
would you think is causing the "strobing" effect
(jerky frames lacking smooth motion) in
conjunction with the movement of the subject in
the video (which doesn't exist at all when
burning the DVD directly from the original
timeline), and how do we prevent that from
occurring, since it only happens when done as
you've described below (that is, generating an
AVI (or MPEG2) from the timeline edit and then
placing that AVI file back into the timeline)
when burning that second file to DVD in the "Sharing" function?
Jitteriness is most often caused by interlacing conflicts. I don't know if this is the case in your project or not.
MPEGs build their interlaced frames differently than DV-AVIs. You can manually tweak them with Premiere Elements, but the easiest solution is to use the DV project settings for DV-AVIs and the DVD/Hard Drive Camcorder project settings for MPEGs (since these settings include a feature for automatically reversing the field dominance). I don't recommend trying to mix AVIs and MPEGs in the same project.
I'm also not quite sure if your AVIs are coming from a miniDV camcorder connected by Firewire, about the only way to get true DV-AVIs without using a video converter.
I'm not sure how well you and Hunt covered the importance of using only video from miniDV, HDV and AVCHD camcorders in Premeire Elements and, more so, ensuring that your project settings match your source files. But doing this will resolve about 98% of the situations in which people experience jittery video.
Once again Steve, I truly do appreciate your
comments and help, (as well as Hunt's, of course)!
Your question regarding the source, is also a
good one. Due to the nature of our business,
most all of everything we put on the timeline has
to be ripped from an already existing DVD (almost
always produced on a stand-alone table-top DVD
recorder) . Still, the concern of my original
question comes after using Pinnacle Studio for
years, prior to switching to Pre7, which (Pre7)
should, in every way, be superior. With
Pinnacle, however, doing all of the identically
same functions with all the exact same sources
and procedures, we never experienced the
"strobing" in the final DVD's, particularly
considering that in Pinnacle, we always only
generated MPEG2's from the edited timeline, and
never needed to use AVI, and when putting that
MPEG2 back into the timeline for further editing
revisions, followed by a new DVD burn, the result
was still always perfectly smooth and stable.
Also, admittedly (or even somewhat
embarrasingly!) I haven't been able to track down
the step by step method in Pre7 of being sure
that all the project settings match the
determined settings of the source files (or even
how to do that), especially since most all the
sources must come primarily from the ripped
DVD's. We've ripped the DVD's in Pre7, TMPEG,
and even using Pinnacle, all with the same
effect. Actually (as a side issue), unless I'm
totally missing something, it's a little easier
to do the rips from outside of Pre7, because when
when Pre7 rips, it breaks the source into
multiple VOB files, which causes a word or two to
be dropped with a frame or so either side of
where it divides the original file. It would be
much more conducive if Pre7 would offer a method
of ripping our 2-hour DVD's into one single VOB.
That's what's puzzling here! Not sure why the
different codecs or algorithms or whatever else
is done in background encoding/re-encoding
process would create a problem with one program
and not the other, with all the ancillary factors
being the same. Interesting!
Have a nice holiday weekend!
I'm not sure why there is this belief that Premiere Elements should be able to do everything any comparably priced video editor can do and do it better just because it's an Adobe product -- but it's probably not a good assumption to make.
Most under-$100 video editors have their limitations. I wish I could say that Premiere Elements could do everything Premiere Pro can do with just a few functions removed, but that's just not the case.
Premiere Elements is relatively low-end product. It's a very good product with lots of great features -- but it works with a very narrow range of files well.
That's why I always say that, when it comes to software, don't ever expect a one-size-fits-all application. We each are working with different video sources and working toward different goals. What works great for me (and 95% of the time, Premiere Elements does), may be entirely wrong for you.
That's just a long way of saying, Les, that if you're working from DVD video to DVD video, Premiere Elements may be able to do it -- but, if it doesn't, you should feel free to use what does.
For video from a DVD, you should be using the DVD/Hard Drive project preset. This should give you an excellent output with no jittering.
If it's not, I'm not sure why. And it may be that this type of video just doesn't fit the product's limited workflow.
Hope that helps.
Yes, it ABSOLUTELY DOES help, and as with your
other responses, I appreciate that!! Now, I'll
say this. Your qualifications of any program's
abilities (and/or limitiations), as expressed
below, are totally fair and
understandable! Knowing that, actually helps
as well, so that we can combine, modify, etc., to
come up with the best overall results! Guess I
may have been slightly remiss in my expectations as you've outlined!
I'll check again to find the DVD/HDD project
preset settings, and maybe that will, in fact,
make the difference, if it isn't already set that-a-way!
Thanks again, buddy, for sharing your (and Bill's) excellent knowledge base!
I do not know the newer Pinnacle Studio products, but going back to 8 and 9, through 9.4.3, the workflow was based on DV-AVI, just like PrE is. Pinnacle might have changed over to MPEG-2 in later versions, but I just do not know, as I have not seen a version, since Studio 10 hit was such a disaster.
One of the problems when working from DVD-Video material is that it has already been compressed to MPEG-2, loosing a good bit of data, and also converting the material to GOP (Group of Pictures), so that individual Frames are not present any longer. This precludes Frame-accurate editing, unless that compressed material is converted to all I-frame. See this ARTICLE for some background on GOP. Then, upon Burn to Disk, that I-frame material is once more compressed (again) to MPEG-2 and GOP for use in a VOB container. This WILL cause degradation of the image, most noticeable where there is motion, either subject, or camera motion. Some NLE's offer what is referred to as "Smart Rendering." This can help in some areas. For portions of the footage, where no changes have been made, beyond just cuts, the material will NOT be Transcoded again to MPEG-2, but will be used, as-is. Note: add a Transition, or a Title, or a PiP, or any Effect, and that footage WILL be Transcoded, so the Smart Rendering aspect will be moot. Sony's Vegas has been recommended for Smart Rendering, but I have never used it. This might be worth investigating. Also, if Pinnacle Studio is working fine, you might want to consider using that program. I have 5 different NLE's on my workstation, and use each for specialized situations, though the vast majority of my editing is done in PrPro.
Regarding the existing DVD-Videos, much depends of the source. PrE can Import and work with 100% DVD-compliant (very important) VOB's. Unfortunately, most DVR's do not create 100% DVD-compliant discs. This is most often manifested in the first VOB, which will contain any Menus and navigation. This ARTICLE will give you some background on VOB's, which are Video Object "containers."
As you point out, there can be issues with the resulting MPEG-2, as it will span part of VOB 1, and then all remaining VOB's. With 100% DVD-compliant VOB's, there will be a perfect flow in the MPEG-2 that spans the multiple VOB's. When the VOB's are not 100% DVD-compliant, issues can arise.
Considering your DVR, it is likely that ripping is going to be the best workflow, as that will strip out the other material in the first VOB and should then gather the data for the spanned MPEG-2. The ultimate rip will be to a DV-AVI Type II file w/ 48KHz 16-bit PCM/WAV Audio. This is an older FAQ Entry from the Encore Forum, on ripping, but might have some useful tips. Note: this was for getting material from a DVD-Video for authoring to a new DVD in Encore, and not editing.
For non-commercial DVD-Video editing, I will use an A-D bridge and my DVD deck, and capture to DV-AVI Type II w/ 48KHz 16-bit PCM/WAV Audio, and Import the resulting files into PrPro/PrE. This is exactly the same workflow that I use, with analog material, like VHS.
Also note that PrPro, a US$900 program did not get VOB Importing until CS4.2 (current version), while PrE has had it for some time now. Also, PrPro is a DV-AVI-based, I-frame, program, just like PrE, so no "Smart Rendering" there either. Same exact issues exist in "big-brother," PrPro.
Most of all, good luck,
Excellent info again! Thanks a ton, and have a great Easter!
I have found that for my DVDs, when I have vertical motion it had the same problem you described with the jitter. I was testing the DVD on a CRT TV with a DVD player and found that the DVD player used Progressive Scan which is very common now. So I converted my video from interlaced to progressive using AME to DVD-Video, imported that video as a timeline in Encore so that it didn't transcode the asset and it helped a whole bunch with the jitter problem. Hope that helps.