33 Replies Latest reply on Apr 5, 2010 2:04 PM by able123

    cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?

    Level 4

      Hi,

       

      I just finished a rough cut of 1 out of 5 converted miniDV tapes...the video in CS3  is dv ntsc 720x480i 29.97, 16:9 ( avi type 2 dvsd )

       

      On my tape1 timeline I have about 17 minutes ( out of 1 hour source ), with about a million scenes, many with cross dissolves, some clips playing 2x speed, a few playing in reverse. A couple "exported frames ( stills ) 'added to project".   No titles or other graphics yet.

       

      I have to do this with the remaining 4 tapes, and then start doing a better cut ( toward final ).

       

      ( side note: ) My "mouse" hand was cramping up pretty good last night after doing this from 5am to about 2am.

       

      I'm thinking I should maybe lose the cross dissolves - after I show this to my friend who had this stuff shot - ( to make cuts easier later ), and make one avi type 2 file out of the 17min rough cut.....and then do the same with the next rough cuts...so in the end I'll have about 5 17 min clips to do the final cut with.

       

      Does that make sense ?  Then, I could (if necessary ) come back to these "scenes" if I need to add something ..but basically I'll have a lot less chance of "accidentally" moving or changing millions of scenes on a single timeline if I were to just gang all these things together for the final cut.

       

      The cross dissolves I can just re-add by cutting and adding to the new single 17min clips...

       

      What do you think?

       

      If I do what I imagine I need to basically frameserve from CS3 back to CS3 ?  How the heck do you do THAT ! ???

       

      Thanks for any suggestions...


       

      Rod

        • 1. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
          the_wine_snob Level 9

          Rod,

           

          One big consideration in that proposed workflow is Handles. Kinda' like when the party guest, Mr. McGuire, whispered to Ben Braddock, "Plastics." [The Graduate, 1967]

           

          If you do the intermediate Export (also consider the Lagarith Lossless CODEC), make sure that you either have the EXACT Transitions, that you want, or that you have none and that you have cut loosely enough, that you WILL have adequate Handles. If you add ANY Transitions, and change your mind, you will have to cut out your Handles and really tighten both Clips up to get Handles back.

           

          When doing rough cuts, I always leave many more Frames, than I know I will need. There is little worse, than having to cut a Clip too tightly, because there are no Handles. Just a warning.

           

          If you wish a bit of background, take a look at these images:

          Handles_01.jpgHandles_02.jpg

          One issue with an intermediate Export is finding the junctions between your Clips. Your eyes will feel like your mouse hand, from all the squinting. Though a hell of a lot more work, you might want to create a 01 sec. Black Video, and drop that between each of the rough cuts. Another method would be to create a 01 sec. Color Matte of a really bright color, so you can spot those junctions and hit 'em quickly. Just something to think about. Now, your director might not be able to handle seeing these, even though they will be cut out, but with a bit of education, may be able to get past a bright green flash, or black flash, while watching.

           

          Another thought would be to do two Exports. One would be for the director and have a TimeCode Effect added to it. You would have the same footage, but without that TimeCode Effect. The director could make note of the TimeCode, and then you would just plug that into your TimeCode window to get to the referenced point. Remember - your copy of the file would NOT have the TimeCode Effect - it would be clean.

           

          Also, if you go with two Exports, do the one for the director in DV-AVI to play back in WMP, VLC, MediaPlayer Classic, etc. You could do yours in Lagarith. If you do the DV-AVI uncheck Recompress.

           

          Hope that helps and good luck,

           

          Hunt

          • 2. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
            the_wine_snob Level 9
            If I do what I imagine I need to basically frameserve from CS3 back to CS3 ?  How the heck do you do THAT ! ???

             

            Jeff Bellune is the FrameServe-Master here. He will have some ideas for you. I have used his FrameServe to Encore technique, but am anything but fully educated on the process.

             

            Good luck,

             

            Hunt

             

            PS - you might want to PM Jeff, and link to this thread, so he can comment on the process for your application.

            • 3. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
              Curt Wrigley Level 4

              Having trouble comprehending what you are asking.

               

              But it seems to me exporting a proj to a single clip is the most limiting thing you can do.  If you needed to change the sceenes it would require cutting it apart to re-edit.

               

              The most common workflow for tap based systems is to batch capture the tape, then just save the project file.   In the future you just restore the project file from a backup and it will re-capture the media for you.  (no need to archive the media itself)

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                Level 4

                Thanks Bill and Curt !

                 

                Yeah, I was planning on re-cutting everthing, just to get the dissolves and other transitions into the clips..and that green frame idea might save my eyesight if I do that....  which is looking more unlikely now that I'm weighing the pros and cons....

                 

                Right now I've got a 14 day safari in two camps ( two countries...zimbabwe and south africa )....from 5 1 hour tapes....

                 

                I had no idea how many "scenes" there were ( creating individual clips on the capture )...

                 

                I had one day of "hunting" already, where they are stalking and walking through jungle and just walking and walking and walking...and stuff happens only a hunter would understand  ( like an animal ends up being too young or it's just too risky shot (not taken), etc etc.. )

                 

                This happens a lot...and I think eventually I'm going to mix up these days ( shuffle them up a bit )...so it flows better.

                To do that I'm going to be taking whole sections out of my rough cuts and moving stuff around a lot...and it's going to play havoc ( with my lack of experience ) with my timelines .....  or at least that was what I was trying to avoid by doing the exports of the rough cuts to make them one clip each.

                 

                Then I could cut the whole thing over again for transitions and for moving sections ...and not have to worry about everything getting mucked up.

                 

                Anyway, I guess I'll risk it but save as copy and all that before I begin that part of the edit....and pray a lot.

                 

                I'm burnt...I have seen enough backs of people traipsing through the jungle to last a lifetime already, and I'm only halfway through the 2nd tape.

                 

                LOL....    Almost makes you happy when you see the elephant get mad and charge them, and they have to run away real fast !

                 

                Rod

                • 5. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                  Level 4

                  Your mention of the handles and limits if I export like that is the deciding factor really...

                   

                  I thought at first I would cut and then import the original source again if I had to extend the cut ...but this all sounds like more work than just fixing the timelines when they get mucked up

                   

                   

                  time for some beer

                   

                  Rod

                  • 6. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                    the_wine_snob Level 9
                    I guess I'll risk it but save as copy and all that before I begin that part of the edit....and pray a lot.

                     

                    I recommend both courses of action. Remember, if you do a Save_As, that will be the new Project on your screen. To keep editing the original, you would use Save_As_a_Copy, just for backup. Similar processes, but different regarding what is on your screen.

                     

                    Along with some good prayers, I find that incense helps too...

                     

                    Good luck, and glad that you are working though the processes, before you get too far along.

                     

                    For kicks, maybe to a second edit of just the walking and walking, and ship that off to director, omitting ALL action shots. Tell him that being a non-hunter, this is your "vision" for how the piece should be edited... Can he take a joke?

                     

                    Hunt

                    • 7. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                      the_wine_snob Level 9
                      Almost makes you happy when you see the elephant get mad and charge them, and they have to run away real fast !

                       

                      Imagine how the elephant feels. He's probably been following these guys for days, and has become very bored, watching all that walking. In anger, he decides to just end that nonsense with one violent act.

                       

                      Hunt

                      • 8. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                        the_wine_snob Level 9
                        I thought at first I would cut and then import the original source again if I had to extend the cut .

                         

                        That can certainly be done, as PrPro is a non-destructive editor. I only logs instructions on how to handle the linked files, for each instance of it. You can always go back, if required. It can be time consuming, and open to errors, if you can't tell what part of the "walking" you need.

                         

                        Good luck,

                         

                        Hunt

                        • 9. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                          Level 4

                          Bill,

                           

                          It's a good thing we never worked together , as we'd be laughing so hard we'd never get any WORK done !

                           

                           

                           

                          haha..." Just send the walking and walking and walking..."  I'm still laughing !

                           

                          Well...one of my anxieties ( of many , mostly about my own ability to use the tools available and also the 'creative' aspect )..is the techical stuff. I had to roll back my video driver to get this project working right...and I never had ONE hour of video to edit, let alone 5...

                          I have the new HD and mem, pagefile, firewire ( with it's own chip ) 400 /800...and so far so good...in fact, rendering the avi seems to be more than twice as fast as in the past....

                           

                           

                           

                          That was 'another' reason I was thinking of exporting the rough cuts...I could send to my FTP site ( have no portable HD ) and feel a little safer in case CS3 bugs out on me due to this machine not being good enough...whatever...   You know how you just worry about stuff and try to do everything imaginable to safeguard the work.

                           

                          Anyway, I will just plug along with the rough cuts meanwhile and then decide what to do before the next phase...

                           

                          hehe, which hopefully WON'T have hours and hours of walking and walking and walking...

                           

                          handheld camera, going through jungle behind everyone, gets a bit old.  Nice shooter though, really...he does get up front and let people walk thru frame once in a while...

                           

                          LOL

                           

                          Rod

                          • 10. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                            Level 4

                            haha..  finding the right walking file to match , made me think of how it must be tough to do underwater fish stuff, and try to match a school of fish "shot" ...  OMG.

                             

                            question:  When I reverse a clip CS3 renders a file, ....  what's it doing and where does that file go ?  Probably the cache, but how does that work with frameserving I wonder ?

                             

                             

                             

                            Rod

                            • 11. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                              Level 4

                              K, this will probably be my last appeal for wisdom for the day, as I am now enjoying a cold beer and stopped my crazed non-stop " editing " behaviour for the day....

                               

                              The sound.

                               

                              I am not doing anything with sound on the rough cut. ( Thank Goodness, because if I consider the walking and walking and walking problem, it pales in comparison to the SOUND problems )

                               

                              Problems are in a nutshell:

                              1) microphone on camera only

                               

                              It seems to be pointed somewhere but it's hard to really tell where exactly ...it might do the world a big favor to take mics off cameras....period !

                               

                              Anyway, I get wind noise mostly....lots of wind noise.  Nobody heard of fuzzy microphones in the camera manufacturing business in all these years ?

                               

                              When I don't get wind noise I get mumbling.  Like I see someone's mouth move, and they are sorta whispering, so they don't scare away the elephant that is tracking them, and it sounds like, " mmmmphhhh, mmmmphhhhh pppssssssstttt laooleklpdelkjopd[jk "

                               

                              How in the world do editors deal with THAT stuff ??????

                               

                               

                               

                              Rod

                              • 12. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                Level 4

                                Bill, you might get a kick out of this...would go to lounge with this but it's just an " aside "

                                 

                                http://www.vintagers.org/

                                 

                                Josh ( guy who did safari ) won first place !

                                 

                                Josh.jpg

                                 

                                Rod

                                 

                                You should see this guy from behind , walking and walking and.....

                                 

                                hehe...   he is a grip like me....mutual friend ( dp / dir on law & order ) got us together on this safari thing.  Josh is REALLY good !

                                • 13. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                  the_wine_snob Level 9

                                  Rod,

                                   

                                  Remember that list of SFX/music URL's that I posted (can do it again, if necessary)?

                                   

                                  I would look into doing some ambient (wind in grass on the savannah, jungle ambiance, etc.) and then adding in an SFX of people walking though grass. You might have to dig a bit, but should be able to find similar. If doing DD 5.1 SS (with the SurCode plug-in), you can easily locate those "walking through grass," etc. sounds to locate them, relative to the viewer/camera.

                                   

                                  Then, score your opus with appropriate music. I'd think about SmartSound here, and using Sonicfire Pro 5 Scoring Edition w/ the SmartSound Multi-track selections. I have several of these in their various World "collections," and they are having another sale, but I do not know which disc are in that.

                                   

                                  Good luck,

                                   

                                  Hunt

                                  1 person found this helpful
                                  • 14. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                    Level 4

                                    Thanks Bill,

                                     

                                    stuck all of what you wrote re: edit workflow, suggestions and work-arounds

                                    ( exporting both files, with timecode for dir ,etc ) into a word doc and

                                    saved...along with this. Thanks

                                     

                                    Rod

                                    • 15. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                      Level 4

                                      Hi

                                       

                                      I'm wondering...and with a grain of salt...cause I don't much like special effect type stuff that is corny....and this might be a corny idea...but I'm wondering how a halfway realistic " binocular" effect might be done in CS3....like, you look thru the binocular , cut to animals with that effect, and then back to the guy looking thru the binoculars...

                                       

                                      Rod

                                      • 16. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                        Harm Millaard Level 7

                                        A matte comes to mind. Create one in PS or in Titler.

                                        • 17. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                          Level 4

                                          Hi Harm,

                                          Does that sound corny to you? to use that sort of thing ???

                                           

                                          It's kinda used so often

                                          • 18. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                            Harm Millaard Level 7

                                            It depends on the contents, but imagine a hunting scene, a half total, with a hunter, wearing binoculars around his neck, looking around to find a deer, then the next shot grabbing his binoculars and lifting them to his eyes, then the look through the binoculars to see the deer (somewhat hazy, due to the distance) with the matte overlayed, then nothing corny to it. A logical sequence of events. There are numerous situations where it could be handy, but often these kind of things are overdone and then they get corny. Use them when it adds to your story line.

                                             

                                            If there was no shot indicating someone had binoculars, that the binoculars have a reason and purpose in your story, then forget it.

                                            • 20. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                              the_wine_snob Level 9

                                              I agree with Harm. With the proper setup, and limited implementation, it could be effective. Same for a "scope view" with cross-hairs. Just temper yourself and only use it with proper set-up, and sparingly.

                                               

                                              I'd look into animating the Track Matte and probably using a bit of a blur on the "barrel" of the scope, or binoculars. I'd keep the "cross-hairs" sharp, however.

                                               

                                              Hunter raises binoculars, or rifle w/ scope to eyes, and the Track Matte Pans slightly across the horizon, maybe passing the target just a bit to return to it. One could even animate a slight Blur in the background footage, as though the hunter focused either the binoculars, or scope. Keep this slight - just enough to imply that the focus was adjusted, snapping into a sharp image.

                                               

                                              Good luck,

                                               

                                              Hunt

                                              • 21. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                                Level 4

                                                Bill,

                                                 

                                                wow, cool idea !

                                                • 22. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                                  Level 4

                                                  Thanks Harm and Bill   re: binocular effect...

                                                   

                                                  Might start another thread...there's no more stars - thank  you's -  to give out on this one...  !!!!

                                                   

                                                  I tried for a couple hours to do the binocular matte in photoshop ( I haven't done transparent mattes in years really...so it took a while to remember how to deal with that...saving the selections (channels) etc etc...but anyway, then I tried different blurs and so on...and no matter what I did it looked kinda less than what I think looked OK...and then I found a post on Curt's Wrigley studio site....using a psd file and luminance ....and it worked Great !

                                                  Thanks Curt ( for the site with posters like that )...

                                                   

                                                  And, Bill, I did that little blur in the beginning and it looks pretty GOOD !!!!  Thanks !

                                                   

                                                  The great hunter, closing in for the kill !  But first, MORE WALKING

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  Rod

                                                  • 23. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                                    Level 4

                                                    Hi

                                                     

                                                    Don't know if you'd care to see the sample...with blur...last link , this page

                                                    http://rodneybauer.com/whiteboard3.htm

                                                     

                                                    64 megs

                                                     

                                                    Rod

                                                    • 24. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                                      the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                      Rod,

                                                       

                                                      I reference Curt's site weekly. Though many of those tutorials were done in earlier versions of Pr, they are easily interpolated to CSx. All one needs is an understanding of the current version, and a touch of imagination. I keep urging him to resist ever letting anything happen to that site. I'd also love to see more tutorials added to it. In general, it does not seem as "active," as it once was, but I'm sure that other duties do get in the way. Still, it is great resource, and a valuable asset to the video-editing community.

                                                       

                                                      For the Track Matte, I would do this in PS, and just do two, slightly overlapping Circles (Selections), to create the PSD. I'd start with it on a bit larger Canvas, than the Frame Size, to allow one to do some Panning, while Zoomed out. For an SD NTSC Project, I'd probably go with about 1000 x 750 pixels, with the correct PAR. One could start with the NTSC DV 720 x 480 Widescreen Preset w/ Guides, and either adjust the pixel dimensions there, or later use Image>Canvas Size, and just leave the image in the center, and extend the Canvas to the required dimensions. Be sure to set the Background to Transparent, when you do New Image.

                                                       

                                                      If you go the route with the single ocular of a scope with cross-hairs, put the cross-hairs on a separate Layer, and then Import the Layered PSD as a Sequence. You can move those Layer Assets, as is required for good housekeeping, but want to retain each Layer separate, so that you can add maybe a touch of blur to the Matte of the ocular, and NOT to the cross-hairs, unless you want to create the illusion that the shooter refocused his eyes, just before the shot. Again, a little blur goes a very long way, unless you wish to make it look like Dennis Hopper on the Easy Rider "acid trip," with a rifle and a scope... 

                                                       

                                                      Good luck,

                                                       

                                                      Hunt

                                                       

                                                      PS - do not know how comfortable you are with PS, but if you have any questions, the PS forum is very active. Just let me know and I'll be sure to drop by any thread posted there. Also, if you have any specific PS questions, do not hesitate to PM, or e-mail me. If you need a Matte done, I'd be glad to create one per your exact specs., and then use YouSendIt for you to download - just let me know.

                                                      • 25. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                                        Level 4

                                                        Bill,

                                                        Wow !  Thanks a lot !  I will certainly keep that in mind re: ps forum, your offer to help steer me to specific threads, personal help and matte help if needed...  That is really very generous of you !

                                                         

                                                        I save a lot of stuff from this forum and transfer it to word docs and eventually print it out ...

                                                        I'm certain I have your sound links somewhere, for example, the diagrams re: normal AB roll cross dissolve, etc...you have no idea how much stuff I've printed and saved !

                                                         

                                                        I'm probably almost an exert with ps, though some things I have notes on to refer to ...like color sampling for getting rid of green screen "shadows" and various things like that...but generally I'm pretty good at it.

                                                         

                                                        The binocular sample is 64 megs - would take you a couple minutes to check it out if you care to. It's the "binocular sample with blur" link

                                                        http://rodneybauer.com/whiteboard3.htm

                                                         

                                                        The only thing that troubles me is the black being so rich, it almost doesn't fit the overall video gamma....the richest black in the video is not as black as the outline of the binocular...so I might change that to a slightly less deep black...maybe not...what do you think ?

                                                         

                                                        Rod

                                                        • 26. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                                          the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                          Rod,

                                                           

                                                          Regarding the "black," you might want to go with about 16, 16, 16 and take a look.

                                                           

                                                          Thanks for the clarification on PS. I did not know how comfortable you were with that program. I can see that I do not need to break things down to basic steps, and that makes it easier on me. Also, you're probably on PS CS3, while I'm still on CS2, but you should not have any trouble interpolating between those versions. Also, they are closer to one another, than CS4 is to either. I still am learning PS CS4, though I do not have it - many changes in location, groupings and even syntax.

                                                           

                                                          Good luck, and I'm downloading the tests now.

                                                           

                                                          Hunt

                                                          • 27. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                                            Level 4

                                                            Hi Bill, I changed the black to 16,16,16...boy, talk about a subtle change...very subtle...but better for it....

                                                             

                                                            Thanks !

                                                             

                                                            What's been happening with the "walking walking walking" and nothing happening...is they have been trailing this herd of cape buffalo....

                                                             

                                                            But the photog doesnt get any real pics of the baffalo til the end of this walking tour...at which time the shot isnt taken because it was too risky (branches in the way )....

                                                             

                                                            So to liven things up I figured I could at least introduce the baffalo throughout the walking tour...so people get a sense of following the herd...and this was the first such trial at doing the binocular thing....   It looks a little corny to me but maybe it will work...

                                                             

                                                            Rod

                                                            • 28. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                                              Level 4

                                                              Bill,

                                                              Another aside ( more suited to the lounge )...did you ever read any of this guys stuff?  He writes REALLY well...beautiful in fact....not talking about plot ( which can sometimes be a little depressing when a character is fatally flawed from the get-go, like Macbeth) ...but beautiful "imagry" etc.

                                                               

                                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Chabon

                                                               

                                                              I know you're celebrating both easter and passover, so thought you might like this author.

                                                               

                                                              Rod

                                                              • 29. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                                                the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                                No, I have not. I seldom read much fiction anymore, but will keep my eyes open for his work.

                                                                 

                                                                Thanks,

                                                                 

                                                                Hunt

                                                                • 30. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                                                  Level 4

                                                                  did you see the binocular sample ?

                                                                   

                                                                  Rod

                                                                  • 31. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                                                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                                    Yes I did. I liked the blur version. Maybe tighten up the Keyframes just a little bit.

                                                                     

                                                                    I'd also make the Matte a touch smaller, and Keyframe the Motion>Position just a bit, to make it look handheld and less like a static framing element - not too much, as you do not want your audience to get seasick.

                                                                     

                                                                    Thanks for sharing,

                                                                     

                                                                    Hunt

                                                                    • 32. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                                                      Level 4

                                                                      Hi ...

                                                                      Well, he's better than that...the word fiction kind of lowers the bar,

                                                                      compared to what he writes....I wouldn't have mentioned it if it was just

                                                                      fiction.

                                                                      The comic book industry ( amazing adventures of blah blah), scott rudin got

                                                                      interested in him with "wonder boys" but the yiddish policemen is REALLY

                                                                      good...

                                                                       

                                                                      Anyway, better than T Corrigessan Boyle stuff IMO (he's cynical at heart

                                                                      where Chabon is a 'humanitarian' at heart...big difference)...

                                                                       

                                                                      Sorry, I'm drifting into the realm of story telling and dreams, and that has

                                                                      nothing to do with adobe premiere CS3 maybe.

                                                                       

                                                                      Rod

                                                                      • 33. Re: cs3 workflow - thinking ahead - frameserver?
                                                                        Level 4

                                                                        hmmm

                                                                        It's not a tracking matte..it's just a matte in front of the real video

                                                                        action...no motion, etc...here's the text from the poster at Curt's website

                                                                        about how to do the effect...

                                                                         

                                                                        Hi,
                                                                        I wanted to create a scene where the camera looks through a pair of binoculars at a passing sailing ship. All attempts to do it in the traditional fashion fell short of my expectations: Straight mask done in Photoshop - flat and sharp edges, mask with blurred contours - flat and blurred edges. By experimenting I found an interesting effect:
                                                                        I used a mask created in Photoshop, consisting of two white overlapping circles on black background with a good measure of Gaussian blur (5-8) applied to the edges. The video clip with the view goes into video track 1 (no transparency changes!) and the mask into track 2. I set it to "luminance" and applied a zero value to the upper slider (threshold or similar, I have the German version of Premiere) and a value of 83 to the lower slider (threshold limit or similar). The twin eye mask of my "binoculars" now displays a very attractive and convincing 3D-edge in front of a majestically passing sailship!
                                                                        I thought I should share this with those of you who might be interested to follow that line of experiment.
                                                                        Fritz