17 Replies Latest reply on Oct 6, 2006 2:36 PM by Newsgroup_User

    <html> or DocType

    tembel
      Hi there everybody
      My site was originally built by a web designer. He built the skeleton of the site and I am doing all the rest. In the process of optimizing it I found out that all my pages start with the <head> tags. Not even <html>. When I added <html> tag everything was fine, however, I was wondering if that makes any difference for search engine indexing.

      When trying to add DOCTYPE either HTML 4.1 or XHTML 1.0 the pages got completely deformed. I am not sure how to proceed. I realized that the Meta tags (closing tags) were made for XHTML ... /> but everything else was made for HTML including the standard IMG tags that do not have the closing tags.

      If I leave it just as <html> would that be a problem for indexing my site?

      Thank you,
      Mark
        • 1. Re: &lt;html&gt; or DocType
          Level 7
          > When trying to add DOCTYPE either HTML 4.1 or XHTML 1.0 the pages got
          > completely deformed. I am not sure how to proceed.

          Ask your web designer to give you your money back and go hire a competant
          one. :/

          > If I leave it just as <html> would that be a problem for indexing my site?

          All HTML files should have a doctype of some sort. Upload the file and let
          us look at it and we can give you some more specific advice.

          -Darrel


          • 2. Re: &lt;html&gt; or DocType
            Level 7
            You should never use your nephew for this kind of job.

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            "tembel" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
            news:eg3pn0$glg$1@forums.macromedia.com...
            > Hi there everybody
            > My site was originally built by a web designer. He built the skeleton of
            > the
            > site and I am doing all the rest. In the process of optimizing it I found
            > out
            > that all my pages start with the <head> tags. Not even <html>. When I
            > added
            > <html> tag everything was fine, however, I was wondering if that makes any
            > difference for search engine indexing.
            >
            > When trying to add DOCTYPE either HTML 4.1 or XHTML 1.0 the pages got
            > completely deformed. I am not sure how to proceed. I realized that the
            > Meta
            > tags (closing tags) were made for XHTML ... /> but everything else was
            > made
            > for HTML including the standard IMG tags that do not have the closing
            > tags.
            >
            > If I leave it just as <html> would that be a problem for indexing my site?
            >
            > Thank you,
            > Mark
            >


            • 3. Re: &lt;html&gt; or DocType
              tembel Level 1

              You can see my incomplete site at:

              www.natural-expressions.ca

              it is incomplete because I took few pages off-line and I am working on the whole site for a week already trying to optimize it. However, the home page will tell you exactly how the rest of them look.
              • 4. Re: &lt;html&gt; or DocType
                tembel Level 1
                Actually, I paid a lot of money for it.
                • 5. Re: &lt;html&gt; or DocType
                  Level 7

                  > Actually, I paid a lot of money for it.

                  Recently, or years ago?

                  It's not awful, but the markup is relying heavily on many, many nested
                  tables. This is OK, but there's much better ways to build HTML these days.

                  As for the missing HTML and DOCTYPE tags, that's just plain odd and sloppy
                  if that's how you received them from the developer.

                  -Darrel


                  • 6. Re: &lt;html&gt; or DocType
                    Level 7

                    "darrel" <notreal@nowhere.com> wrote in message
                    news:eg3tjr$la8$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                    > As for the missing HTML and DOCTYPE tags, that's just plain odd and sloppy
                    > if that's how you received them from the developer.

                    Using table height is also sloppy, and what's more is that there are images
                    in those cells already to prop them open, so why the redundancy? Then
                    colspans and rowspans galore complete the picture.

                    Yes, I can see how adding a proper DOCTYPE would make the page go caput.
                    It's relying on old browser bugs and invalid HTML to work.


                    • 7. Re: &lt;html&gt; or DocType
                      tembel Level 1
                      Darrel,

                      The site is about three months old.

                      If your question is if I received it with all these tables nested in each other than the answer is yes. I put all the images, text, changed the navigation text buttons and created the flash galleries. The opening flash he did but now I am thinking of taking it off completely since flash pages are not good for opening pages.

                      I am sorry to hear that it is a sloppy work. What's important to me is if all these mistakes will effect the indexing of the pages. Later on I will try to recreate the web site but if I can leave it like that for now (the frame work I mean, everything else I am reworking) I will just let it be for a year or so.

                      What do you think?
                      Thanks
                      • 8. Re: &lt;html&gt; or DocType
                        Level 7
                        tembel wrote:


                        > If I leave it just as <html> would that be a problem for indexing my site?

                        No there is no conclusive evidence to suggest that would effect your
                        site from being indexed. Infact I believe I'm correct in saying pages
                        don't specifically need <html> or <body> tags.....I'm sure I read that
                        somewhere, maybe.

                        Observe many pages code that turn up high in the indexing and you'll
                        discover a lot of convoluted coding. How they get there is anyones guess.

                        That not to say I advise bad coding, I don't. However I believe it has
                        nothing to do with not being indexed.







                        • 9. Re: &lt;html&gt; or DocType
                          Level 7
                          > No there is no conclusive evidence to suggest that would effect your site
                          > from being indexed.

                          Not only is there no conclusive evidence, there is no evidence at all.

                          > Infact I believe I'm correct in saying pages don't specifically need
                          > <html> or <body> tags.....I'm sure I read that somewhere, maybe.

                          They are not required, but if you have one of them, you must have both the
                          opening and closing ones. And, you cannot have more than that.

                          --
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                          "Osgood" <notavailable@atthisaddress.com> wrote in message
                          news:eg52ar$s8l$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                          > tembel wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >> If I leave it just as <html> would that be a problem for indexing my
                          >> site?
                          >
                          > No there is no conclusive evidence to suggest that would effect your site
                          > from being indexed. Infact I believe I'm correct in saying pages don't
                          > specifically need <html> or <body> tags.....I'm sure I read that
                          > somewhere, maybe.
                          >
                          > Observe many pages code that turn up high in the indexing and you'll
                          > discover a lot of convoluted coding. How they get there is anyones guess.
                          >
                          > That not to say I advise bad coding, I don't. However I believe it has
                          > nothing to do with not being indexed.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          • 10. Re: &lt;html&gt; or DocType
                            Level 7
                            >> No there is no conclusive evidence to suggest that would effect your site
                            >> from being indexed.
                            >
                            > Not only is there no conclusive evidence, there is no evidence at all.

                            Hi Murray,

                            Sorry to disagree with you for once, but there is evidence for being
                            penalised for invalid code...

                            At this stage (IMO) the evidence is a bit shakey (and the testing is
                            certainly not all encompassing), but still there none-the-less...

                            See

                            http://www.seomoz.org/blogdetail.php?ID=782

                            http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2006/01/the-roundabout-seo-test

                            From what I gather, invalid code online is still better than not being
                            online. Valid code is better yet.

                            HTH,


                            Bruce


                            • 11. Re: &lt;html&gt; or DocType
                              Level 7
                              Atomic wrote:


                              > Sorry to disagree with you for once, but there is evidence for being
                              > penalised for invalid code...
                              >
                              > At this stage (IMO) the evidence is a bit shakey (and the testing is
                              > certainly not all encompassing), but still there none-the-less...
                              >
                              > See
                              >
                              > http://www.seomoz.org/blogdetail.php?ID=782
                              >
                              > http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2006/01/the-roundabout-seo-test
                              >
                              > From what I gather, invalid code online is still better than not being
                              > online. Valid code is better yet.


                              Some of what that article covers is complete rubbish (read below) who
                              the hell is going to put a page on the web if it didn't render in the
                              browser correctly......doesnt even appear in most browsers.

                              This seem like nonsense to me:

                              <quote>
                              The interesting part here is that while the source code of all three
                              test cases looks pretty similar, the appearance of the pages in a
                              browser is completely different. The invalid pages, in fact, don’t even
                              render (at least in most browsers they don’t). The reason for this is
                              the degree to which the code is malformed. The missing quote on the end
                              of the “checkered” attribute is causing the entire page to fail and the
                              word “lodefizzle” to not even appear on the rendered page.
                              </quote>



                              This I agree with:

                              Conclusion: Although good semantics are somewhat valuable in
                              optimization, simple things like proper titles, descriptive filenames,
                              and incoming links are dramatically more important.


                              If the only test the guy did is on code that doesnt even render in MOST
                              browsers that make it invalid itself.



                              • 12. Re: &lt;html&gt; or DocType
                                Level 7
                                > Sorry to disagree with you for once, but there is evidence for being
                                > penalised for invalid code...

                                I do not think your examples show that at all.

                                What they do show (I think) is that content that cannot be rendered, also
                                cannot contribute to your ranking in Google. That makes perfect sense. To
                                extrapolate this observation to the general case that "invalid code can a)
                                get you penalized, or b) get you booted from the index" is unwarranted and
                                nonsensical in my opinion.

                                > Valid code is better yet.

                                Of course. But I have not seen any evidence that says it will give you a
                                better SE ranking.

                                --
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                                Adobe Community Expert
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                                "Atomic" <bruce@@atomic@design@studio.com.au> wrote in message
                                news:eg5ela$ec2$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                >>> No there is no conclusive evidence to suggest that would effect your
                                >>> site from being indexed.
                                >>
                                >> Not only is there no conclusive evidence, there is no evidence at all.
                                >
                                > Hi Murray,
                                >
                                > Sorry to disagree with you for once, but there is evidence for being
                                > penalised for invalid code...
                                >
                                > At this stage (IMO) the evidence is a bit shakey (and the testing is
                                > certainly not all encompassing), but still there none-the-less...
                                >
                                > See
                                >
                                > http://www.seomoz.org/blogdetail.php?ID=782
                                >
                                > http://www.mikeindustries.com/blog/archive/2006/01/the-roundabout-seo-test
                                >
                                > From what I gather, invalid code online is still better than not being
                                > online. Valid code is better yet.
                                >
                                > HTH,
                                >
                                >
                                > Bruce
                                >


                                • 13. Re: &lt;html&gt; or DocType
                                  tembel Level 1
                                  Hi Lionstone,

                                  Thanks, I realized that table height is not used anymore and so I am slowly taking them out. What happened is that some of the GIF images that make the graphic frame on my pages disappeared. TODAY (!!) I realized that all I have to do is make the GIF 100% height and the frame just appeared again! :-)

                                  The small things in life make us happy,
                                  Thank you for great input.
                                  • 14. Re: &lt;html&gt; or DocType
                                    tembel Level 1
                                    Reply to all,

                                    Thanks, I also did some reading about proper coding etc. and my conclusion is that although there is no evidence that bad coding will affect the ranking, I believe that search engines are going at that direction. It makes sense since there are millions of web pages submitted each day, that search engines will become more picky.

                                    Besides, I would like my pages to be correct if not with graphics and content (I am a beginner to web design, I started learned web design last spring) at least with good coding. It is not that difficult. I prefer to use HTML as oppose to XHTML but still it should be done correctly. I am sure all of you will agree to that.

                                    Thank you every body and If there is more to know please keep posting.

                                    Mark
                                    • 15. Re: &lt;html&gt; or DocType
                                      Level 7
                                      Don't get too happy. This is not a reliable technique.

                                      --
                                      Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                                      Adobe Community Expert
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                                      "tembel" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                                      news:eg6dbh$l9g$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                      > Hi Lionstone,
                                      >
                                      > Thanks, I realized that table height is not used anymore and so I am
                                      > slowly
                                      > taking them out. What happened is that some of the GIF images that make
                                      > the
                                      > graphic frame on my pages disappeared. TODAY (!!) I realized that all I
                                      > have to
                                      > do is make the GIF 100% height and the frame just appeared again! :-)
                                      >
                                      > The small things in life make us happy,
                                      > Thank you for great input.
                                      >


                                      • 16. Re: &lt;html&gt; or DocType
                                        Level 7
                                        > I believe that search engines are going at that direction.

                                        Personally, I do not. I think the last thing a search engine wants (or
                                        needs) to do is to validate your page. Then it would have to assign a rank
                                        to pages that fail because of a missing alt attribute compared to pages that
                                        fail because of a missing <body> tag - and it would have to accommodate
                                        post-design code added by servers, etc. I have no sense that they are
                                        moving towards this.

                                        > It makes sense since
                                        > there are millions of web pages submitted each day, that search engines
                                        > will
                                        > become more picky.

                                        But it doesn't make sense that this will be the way that they do it.

                                        --
                                        Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                                        Adobe Community Expert
                                        (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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                                        "tembel" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                                        news:eg6e12$m1u$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                        > Reply to all,
                                        >
                                        > Thanks, I also did some reading about proper coding etc. and my conclusion
                                        > is
                                        > that although there is no evidence that bad coding will affect the
                                        > ranking, I
                                        > believe that search engines are going at that direction. It makes sense
                                        > since
                                        > there are millions of web pages submitted each day, that search engines
                                        > will
                                        > become more picky.
                                        >
                                        > Besides, I would like my pages to be correct if not with graphics and
                                        > content
                                        > (I am a beginner to web design, I started learned web design last spring)
                                        > at
                                        > least with good coding. It is not that difficult. I prefer to use HTML as
                                        > oppose to XHTML but still it should be done correctly. I am sure all of
                                        > you
                                        > will agree to that.
                                        >
                                        > Thank you every body and If there is more to know please keep posting.
                                        >
                                        > Mark
                                        >
                                        >


                                        • 17. Re: &lt;html&gt; or DocType
                                          Level 7
                                          > I am sorry to hear that it is a sloppy work. What's important to me is if
                                          > all
                                          > these mistakes will effect the indexing of the pages.

                                          Well, it doesn't help. A lot of the site appears to be image-based, too.
                                          Google prefers text over images.

                                          -Darrel