22 Replies Latest reply on Apr 9, 2010 5:14 PM by Tai Lao

    Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4

    Mary Ellen Foster

      When I import an image into camera raw can I change the bit depth and/or the resolution without degrading the image? I know if I click on the information along the bottom of the raw screen a dialogue box will come up giving me these options but I was wondering if this will interfere with the quality of my images.

        • 1. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
          Level 4

          A 16-bit image will always give you more latitude to process it than an 8-bit one, and a larger color space like ProPhoto RGB will give you more latitude with the colors than a narrow one like sRGB.

           

          But it depends on the final purpose of the file.  If you worked exclusively for the web, for instance, you're eventually going to end up in 8-bit sRGB anyhow.  Whether you want to process that file as a 16-bit ProPhoto RGB file and convert to 8-bit sRGB at the end is entirely your call.  It will depend on how much pixel manipulating you expect to do in the process.

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
            Mary Ellen Foster Level 1

            I am taking my photos with an 8 bit more portable digital camera and a 12 bit heavier camera. I was recently advised to shoot only in RAW to get as much information as possible and then convert them in ACR to 16 bit and up the resolution if desired. Some of my images come into ACR with a resolution of 240 ppi. My Epson 3800 has a native resolution of 360 which is what I usually print in and can print 16 bit. Have I been advised correctly? Can I make these changes in ACR without any damage or degradation to my photos?

             

            Thanks for your help.

             

            Mary Ellen

            • 3. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
              Level 4

              Mary Ellen Foster wrote:

               

              Some of my images come into ACR with a resolution of 240 ppi.

               

               

              That is irrelevant.  You can change that in Photoshop without altering any of the pixels by keeping the "Resample" box in Image Size UNchecked.

               

              Now, if you resample, whether up or down, then you will be altering the pixels, inventing non-existent pixels when you upsample and discarding image information pixels when you downsample.  This is regardless of whether you resample in ACR or in Photoshop.

               

              To keep the best image quality, no resampling should be done.  In ACR, this is achieved by using the one pixel dimension setting that DOES NOT have either a plus or a minus sign in ACR Output Options.

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
                Level 4

                NOTE:  I edited my last post.

                • 5. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
                  Mary Ellen Foster Level 1

                  Okay, now I am going to ask you to bear with me, I understand the resample process in Photoshop and how it applies in ACR as well. No resampling should be done for best quality. Thank you for answering that for me. What about the bit depth? Can I change that without altering pixels?

                   

                  Now, in ACR where do I find the one pixel dimension setting that DOES NOT have either a plus or a minus sign in the Output Options. Where are the Output Options? Is that the link at the bottom of the ACR screen?

                   

                  Again, thank you for your time and your help. I do try, believe me.

                   

                  Mary Ellen

                  • 6. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
                    Level 4

                    Mary Ellen Foster wrote:

                     

                    …What about the bit depth? Can I change that without altering pixels?…

                     

                     

                    No.  16-bit will have more colors than 8-bit.

                     

                    Mary Ellen Foster wrote:

                     

                     

                    Now, in ACR where do I find the one pixel dimension setting that DOES NOT have either a plus or a minus sign in the Output Options. Where are the Output Options? Is that the link at the bottom of the ACR screen?

                     

                    Yes the Output Options are what looks like a link at the bottom of the ACR screen.  Click on it.  The different sizes are in the dropdown menu.

                    • 7. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
                      Mary Ellen Foster Level 1

                      Everything that you have told me makes sense and is what I thought but after talking to someone who seemed knowledgeable enough, I questioned myself. I had to contact Canon and Panasonic in order to get the bit depth of my cameras as they were not in the specs. It did not make sense to me to change an image from 8 bit to 16 bit as I thought it would just add information not there already. Like trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. This person told me there is so much data in RAW images and most of it isn't used.

                       

                      I thank you for clarifying this to me.

                       

                      Best regards,

                      Mary Ellen Foster

                      • 8. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
                        xbytor2 Level 4

                        My Nikon Coolpix S550 creates 8bit jpegs. I convert those to DNGs first and do what processing I can there. When I'm finished, I export them to 16bit ProPhoto PSD files and then do any additional processing and printing there. The 8->16 bit conversion makes it possible for better edits ACR and PS. Banding in skies, for instance, is greatly reduced because there is more room for smoother gradients.

                        • 9. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
                          MH975

                          Hi  , I need to know when update Camera raw do you need to update the DNG converter too. Im also looking for tutorials or "how to use" stuff for camera raw 5.5 and 5.6. I wanted to know how to use the new features in them. HELP! 

                          • 10. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
                            Mary Ellen Foster Level 1

                            Now I am confused.  mef

                            • 12. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
                              Level 4

                              Mary Ellen Foster wrote:

                               

                              Now I am confused.  mef

                               

                              How so?

                               

                              Wo Tai Lao Le

                              我太老了

                              • 13. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
                                Mary Ellen Foster Level 1

                                Because of what xbytor2 said:

                                 

                                "My Nikon Coolpix S550 creates 8bit jpegs. I convert those to DNGs first and do what processing I can there. When I'm finished, I export them to 16bit ProPhoto PSD files and then do any additional processing and printing there. The 8->16 bit conversion makes it possible for better edits ACR and PS. Banding in skies, for instance, is greatly reduced because there is more room for smoother gradients."

                                 

                                I find what you said makes more sense. I mean, if you pump up 8 bit files by converting them to 16 bit files, wouldn't that just add non existing data?

                                 

                                Mary Ellen

                                • 14. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
                                  Level 4


                                  Mary Ellen Foster wrote:

                                   

                                  Because of what xbytor2 said:

                                   

                                  "My Nikon Coolpix S550 creates 8bit jpegs. I convert those to DNGs first and do what processing I can there. When I'm finished, I export them to 16bit ProPhoto PSD files and then do any additional processing and printing there. The 8->16 bit conversion makes it possible for better edits ACR and PS. Banding in skies, for instance, is greatly reduced because there is more room for smoother gradients."

                                   

                                  I find what you said makes more sense. I mean, if you pump up 8 bit files by converting them to 16 bit files, wouldn't that just add non existing data?

                                   

                                  Mary Ellen

                                   

                                  There is no contradiction whatsoever.

                                   

                                  In message number 1, I wrote:

                                   

                                  Tai Lao wrote:

                                   

                                  A 16-bit image will always give you more latitude to process it than an 8-bit one, and a larger color space like ProPhoto RGB will give you more latitude with the colors than a narrow one like sRGB.

                                   

                                  That is exactly what xbytor 2 writes.

                                   

                                  When you change the bit depth from 8-bit to 16-bit you are not inventing data, you're expanding the space around your data.  That way you can add more colors, as when you increase saturation or paint on your image, and there's more breathing room for gradients and such.

                                   

                                   

                                  That is very different from what I wrote in message number 3:

                                   

                                   

                                  Tai Lao wrote:

                                   

                                  Mary Ellen Foster wrote:

                                   

                                  Some of my images come into ACR with a resolution of 240 ppi.

                                   

                                   

                                  That is irrelevant.  You can change that in Photoshop without altering any of the pixels by keeping the "Resample" box in Image Size UNchecked.

                                   

                                  Now, if you resample, whether up or down, then you will be altering the pixels, inventing non-existent pixels when you upsample and discarding image information pixels when you downsample.  This is regardless of whether you resample in ACR or in Photoshop.

                                   

                                  To keep the best image quality, no resampling should be done.  In ACR, this is achieved by using the one pixel dimension setting that DOES NOT have either a plus or a minus sign in ACR Output Options.

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  Wo Tai Lao Le

                                  我太老了

                                  • 15. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
                                    Mary Ellen Foster Level 1

                                    In message #5 I wrote:  What about the bit depth? Can I change that without altering pixels?

                                     

                                    In message #6 you wrote:  No. 16-bit will have more colors then 8-bit.

                                     

                                    I took your "No." to mean that I could not change the bit depth from 8 to 16 without altering the pixels. Did I misunderstand what you said? Again I beg you to please bear with me I have passed my learning curve and fight though this stuff as best I can.

                                     

                                    By the way, how do you copy and paste comments the way that you do. I have not grasped that concept either.

                                     

                                    Best regards,

                                    Mary Ellen

                                    • 16. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
                                      rasworth Level 1

                                      I'll take a shot at explaining 8 vs 16 bits.

                                       

                                      Assume a single pixel, say a medium shade of red, R=200 G=100 B=100, expressed in 8 bit quantities.  Changing to 16 bit mode (actually 15 bit but that's another story) will result in the same color (assuming one doesn't change color space) but the numbers will now be R=25600 G=12800 B=12800.

                                       

                                      Given the larger numbers, one can "nudge" a color a smaller distance in the 16 bit notation than in the 8 bit.  This might not appear important since 8 bits seems to still have small jumps (e.g. R=200 to R=199).  However if a color space such as Pro Photo is used, with its immense gamut, then the nudge for lower values of R/G/B can be a signficant shift in color, and therefore using 16 bits allows for a much finer change when editing.

                                       

                                      Richard Southworth

                                      • 17. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
                                        Level 4

                                        Mary Ellen Foster wrote:

                                         

                                        In message #5 I wrote:  What about the bit depth? Can I change that without altering pixels?

                                         

                                        In message #6 you wrote:  No. 16-bit will have more colors then 8-bit.

                                         

                                        I took your "No." to mean that I could not change the bit depth from 8 to 16 without altering the pixels. Did I misunderstand what you said?

                                         

                                        You partially misunderstood. 

                                         

                                        The implication in my response was—and is—that you might be altering/squishing some pixels if you change a 16-bit image to 8-bits.  When rendering a raw file, you would definitely be leaving some image quality behind by telling ACR to output an 8-bit file as opposed to 16-bit.

                                         

                                        Your question was (as quoted above)… 

                                         

                                        What about the bit depth? Can I change that without altering pixels?

                                         

                                        as phrased, that question requires a NO answer because the change could just as easily be from 16-bit to 8-bit color depth.

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                        Wo Tai Lao Le

                                        我太老了

                                        • 18. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
                                          Level 4

                                          Mary Ellen Foster wrote:

                                           

                                          By the way, how do you copy and paste comments the way that you do. I have not grasped that concept either.

                                           

                                          In the formatting bar Reply Editor, you can use the icon with the quotation mark superimposed on a cartoon speech bubble to automatically bring in the entire text of the message to which you are replying already formatted as a quote.

                                           

                                          Alternatively, you can apply the icon with the two >> to a selected text to obtain the same formatting.

                                           

                                          Wo Tai Lao Le

                                          我太老了

                                          • 19. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
                                            Mary Ellen Foster Level 1

                                            Okay, I think I'm getting it. Thank you for your help and patient explanation.

                                             

                                            Mary Ellen

                                            • 20. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
                                              Mary Ellen Foster Level 1

                                              Gotcha! You are very kind.

                                               

                                              Thank you,

                                              Mary Ellen

                                              • 21. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
                                                Mary Ellen Foster Level 1

                                                I think it is a matter of semantics. In any case, because of the help received here by you and others I have a better grasp on how to process my RAW images and understand bit depth better. The assistance is most appreciated.

                                                 

                                                Mary Ellen

                                                 

                                                p.s. You compose very well.

                                                • 22. Re: Camera Raw 5.6 in CS 4
                                                  Level 4

                                                  You are too kind, Ms Foster.