9 Replies Latest reply: Apr 20, 2010 11:46 AM by JimHess-DIrcbP RSS

    NIKON D5000 NEF - Lightroom 2.6 and PSE show colors quite differently from what Nikon Software show

    Robert Eckerlin Community Member

      With my Nikon D5000 DSLR camera, I took recently photos from small blue flowers. I had set-up my Nikon D5000 to create for every photo both a NEF File and a JPEG File (and had set my camera to use Automatic While Balance). 

       

      I noticed that for NEF Files Lightroom 2.6 (and also PSE 7, that uses internally Camera RAW ) shows me the blue colors of the flowers quite differently from what I see with PSE for the jpeg file. It is my impression, that it is in the Jpeg files, that the blue color is close to the reality; and  that it is with the NEF Files that Lightroom and PSE show a blue color that is quite different from the reality.

       

      I also looked at the photo files with the NIKON "View Nx" 1.3.0 Software that came with my camera. With "View Nx" the blue colors (both with the NEF file and the Jpeg File) are very vlose that what i see with PSE 7 in the jpeg file (and quite different from what I see with LR and PSE for the .NEF File).

      I mentioned this problem to Nikon Support. They suggested, that Nikon Software and Adobe software use different algorithms; and that the Nikon algorithms are better/closer adapted to the Nikon cameras than the more generalized Adobe algorithms that need to support a very large number of cameras.

       

      But ....it is Lightroom that i wish to use to process my NEF Files and PSE that I wish to use to organize my Photos. Can a LR/Camera-RAW expert help me? I would like to find a solution to see with LR and with PSE in my D5000 NEF Photo Files blue colors that are close to the reality and close to what Nikon Software shows me on my PC. Please notice that I am very far away from being a professional and that i will probably not understand complicated explanations.

       

      Thanks a lot in advance.

       

      An additional note, that is perhaps not relevant: I used LR to convert my NEF File into a JPEG File format and looked at the blue in the result. It looks the same as what LR and PSE show me for the .NEF File (and looks different from the jpeg file crreated by the NIKON camera).

        • 1. Re: NIKON D5000 NEF - Lightroom 2.6 and PSE show colors quite differently from what Nikon Software show
          ssprengel Community Member

          Nikon-produced and -licensed software should look consistent within itself, but Adobe has no way of knowing what Nikon is doing, so they have to do things their own way--this is basically what Nikon support told you.

           

          Blue flowers are particularly difficult to get right, and the default camera-profile that LR and ACR are using may not be optimized for blue, but rather skintones or who knows what.

           

          One simple suggestion is to try the various Camera Profiles you can get in to the Camera Calibration area of LR and ACR, besides the default of Adobe Standard, where Camera Standard is supposed to be Adobe's attempt at mimicking Nikon's color conversions, but it won't be perfect.

           

          If you are really picky about this, then my suggestion would be to buy yourself a ColorChecker Passport, and create your own custom camera profiles which will be as close as you can come with Adobe software matched to your specific camera for various lighting conditions. 

           

          The process is as simple as taking a RAW (NEF) picture of the color-checker target in whatever lighting you're using, and then using the X-Rite Export plugin in Lightroom to create a color profile by exporting the NEF to that plugin.

           

          Overview of how to use it:

          http://www.xrite.com/custom_page.aspx?pageid=141&utm_source=xrite.com&utm_medium=homepage- banner&utm_campaign=joe-brady

           

          Product Page:

          http://www.xritephoto.com/ph_product_overview.aspx?id=1257&tab=videos

           

          If you already have an old colorchecker, then you can download the x-rite software for free and don't have to spend money for the color target, but I did, anyway, because I like the little plastic case that protects the target and it fits in my pocket when I'm hiking around. 

           

          Adobe Labs also has free software called the DNG Profile Editor that has more capabilities as far as tweaking specific colors, but it doesn't have the ease of use like the x-rite software.

           

           

          Here's an example of how the correction works for some 7D test shots I did at Best Buy where they have some sort of overhead fluorescent lighting:

          http://www.pbase.com/ssprengel/image/119356588

           

          The more yellowish picture on the left is the Adobe generic profile for the 7D, and the picture on the right is after using a custom color profile created with the X-Rite colorchecker passport and you can see the skin tones are more normal colored.

          • 2. Re: NIKON D5000 NEF - Lightroom 2.6 and PSE show colors quite differently from what Nikon Software show
            Robert Eckerlin Community Member

            ssprengel

             

            Thanks a lot for your answer.

             

            If I understand you correctly, in the "Develop" module of Lightroom, I shall go to the "Camera Calibration" section and then experiment with the variuos "Profile" choices. I did that with just one photo and this seems to address/solve quite reasonably the bulk of my problems with the "blue" in that particular photo.

             

            In the next days, I will experiment more (i.e. with more photos) with this approach.

             

            Thank You very much for your very useful help.

            Robert Eckerlin

            • 3. Re: NIKON D5000 NEF - Lightroom 2.6 and PSE show colors quite differently from what Nikon Software show
              Robert Eckerlin Community Member

              ssprengel

               

              To avoid any misunderstanding, I should first clearly describe that I am very happy to have (thanks to your prompt and very useful help) a solution for the described problem.

               

              However, when considering how odd the color of my blue flowers was looking, I am nevertheless surprised that the default "Adobe Standard" Profile for my Nikon D5000 DSLR is so far away from being accurate.

               

              Do you think that I should ask LR Support specialists from Adobe to take a look at my photos in order to give Adobe a chance to improve the "Adobe Standard" Profile? Or, from your expert point-of-view, do you think that it is something quite usual for the "Adobe standard" Profile to produce results/colors that are very far away from the reality?

               

              As a non-expert, I wonder whether LR development should investigate (for LR 4?) a solution that compares (for those cameras that support the creation of both a RAW and a jpeg file from the same photo) the colors in the RAW File (as rendered by the Adobe default profile) and the colors of the jpeg files (as created by the camera) in order to enhance substantially the result of the Adobe standard profile. Of course, as a non-expert, I have not the slightest idea whether a similar approach would work well.

               

              ----------

              It will take some time until I try to create my own Camera Profiles, as you suggested. Even If I will not do it right away: I appreciate also very much this additional help/suggestion that you provided to me.

              • 4. Re: NIKON D5000 NEF - Lightroom 2.6 and PSE show colors quite differently from what Nikon Software show
                ssprengel Community Member

                One of the colors on the standard "ColorChecker" target is blue-flower blue, so they would be aware of how far "off" that color might be in certain situations.  Without seeing the photo in question it isn't easy to guess if there is some special circumstance that makes this particular set of photos not close to reality for you.

                 

                Another thing that can affect color rendering is whether you have any custom-curves or any other color-related processing enabled in your camera, even the d-lighting affects things quite a bit, but none of these Nikon-specific processing settings in your camera will be applied to Adobe RAW conversions because Adobe has no idea how Nikon software works.

                 

                If you are concerned about your RAW and JPG not looking the same, then a suggestion would be to set the Camera Standard profile as the default in LR for your Nikon camera.  I did this until I got a ColorChecker passport and was able to make my own color-profiles which are even closer to what I expect. 

                 

                Keep in mind that making a camera profile is an art at least as much as a science so making some colors look more correct in various colors of lighting can make others look less correct.  I would suspect the Adobe Standard profile is optimized for skin colors being the best because human perception is very sensitive to people looking right or not, but less able to tell if a blue flower is right if they weren't actually there.  I typically take pictures of nature subjects, not people, and quit using the Adobe Standard profile once the camera-match ones were released a few years ago.

                 

                If you had several Nikon camera models and the others rendered the blue flowers much better than your D5000 then that might be a reason to ask Adobe to take another look.  If you hadn't taken a JPG to compare with your RAW, would the blue flowers' appearance bothered you or not?

                • 5. Re: NIKON D5000 NEF - Lightroom 2.6 and PSE show colors quite differently from what Nikon Software show
                  EJ Printer Community Member

                  I'd say your experience is right on. LR defaults whack Nikon images.

                  You can of course set up a preset, some want to call it a profile, and on import have that preset applied to your photos. Limit it to only the calibration setting. I use Adobe 4.4 for my D200 files with about -10 blue sat. You'll also notice that the brightness and contrast setting are rather high. So Check out the whole processing tree for those sliders that seem most out of whack with what you want from your processing. If you are comparing to your jpeg, that might make it even harder. If you find a good starting point, save it and apply that whole set on import.

                  • 6. Re: NIKON D5000 NEF - Lightroom 2.6 and PSE show colors quite differently from what Nikon Software show
                    JimHess-DIrcbP Community Member

                    Because there is such a difference between how Nikon software interprets the images and how Adobe software does the same, it is always a good idea to take the time to determine what your default settings should be in Lightroom or Camera Raw.  There really isn't any need for you to have Adobe look at your particular images.  This difference is common, and one that you need to compensate for if you are going to use Adobe software.  I use the Camera Standard profile as the default for my D90, and I also have included some noise reduction and sharpening settings of my own in my default settings.

                     

                     

                    My suggestion would be for you to take the time to get your default settings right.  Then, if necessary, create a few presets to cover special situations.  Once I did that I found that my Lightroom processing time was reduced dramatically.

                    • 7. Re: NIKON D5000 NEF - Lightroom 2.6 and PSE show colors quite differently from what Nikon Software show
                      Robert Eckerlin Community Member

                      EJ and Jim

                      Thank You very much for your useful feedback.

                       

                      I realize, that as a neophit I am an exot among the community of photo-experts and photo-professionals addressed by LR.  Therefore the wish that I will now express is perhaps inadequate. But since it is gently, that i express this wish, I am probably allowed to do so......

                       

                      My wish for a future version of LR, is that LR comes out of the box with a "reasonable" interpretation of the RAW images of most important/widespread modern cameras....without requiring that non-experts like me gets confronted from the very beginning with the need to develop their own default settings.

                       

                      For this wish, I will formulate a Feature Request.

                       

                      ----

                      You might wonder, why a non-expert like me is interested in LR instead of  using those Photo-Editing Software (e.g. PSE) that are supposed to address the need of non-experts. Well..... I am coming from the PSE world. I am reasolnably happy with the PSE Organizer....but  I hate the complex, inefficient, unfriendli "user-interface" (experts will probably tell: workflow-interface?) of the PSE Editor. Its really a last-century Software. LR is so much more friendly, even for non-experts...within the Library Module, i do not need to switch back and forth between one dialogue-window for each type of change.... nearly all what i need is in that one right-hand pane of the Library module.

                       

                      I honestly believe, that Adobe should take a serious look at promoting/marketing  LR also to the audience of non-experts. That would be a good and attractive additional marketing opportunity for LR.

                      • 8. Re: NIKON D5000 NEF - Lightroom 2.6 and PSE show colors quite differently from what Nikon Software show
                        EJ Printer Community Member

                        Robert, I understand your frustration of the limits of ACR to properly render your files. It is however, a big clearing house for many different RAW files. If you want to buy into the idea of LR wholly, you might consider converting to DNG and accept the Adobe thinking of raw. That is easy enough to do on import but there will still be a few hoops that you'll need to jump through at least a few times before that becomes right. You are in essence asking adobe to apply a correct path for your interpretation of "right" from a broad mix of ideas. Remember this stage is equivalent to walking in the darkroom and processing your film. You get to decide the time and temperture, developer and dilution to make an start at crafting your image from your "film" exposure.

                         

                        You can always step back to camera rendered JPEG or use a JPEG profile as a default. Since you have the raw, stepping backward is easy and non destructive ( i hate this term, but it's the buzz word of RAW processing).

                        • 9. Re: NIKON D5000 NEF - Lightroom 2.6 and PSE show colors quite differently from what Nikon Software show
                          JimHess-DIrcbP Community Member

                          Robert,

                           

                           

                          I think you would be surprised at the number of Lightroom users who are just hobbyists.  I am one of those type of users.  I very seldom share images because I don't think most of my work is very good.  But I like to experiment, and I think Lightroom provides me with a lot of capability.  In other words, I think the word is out.  Hobbyists and other nonprofessional photography enthusiasts have embraced Lightroom more than you realize.

                           

                           

                          It isn't likely that Adobe will ever be able to "correctly" interpret raw images.  And it is that way by design.  Not Adobe, but the camera manufacturers, in your case this would be Nikon.  A raw image has no color space, I understand that unprocessed it is basically a bunch of gray matter.  It takes software to interpret the raw image data and produce the image.  Nikon produces a couple of software programs that will interpret the in-camera settings and apply those settings to the raw image.  But some of those settings cannot be interpreted by Lightroom.  So Adobe creates camera profiles for different cameras.  Fortunately, you are using one of the brands that Adobe creates a number of different profiles including Camera Standard, Camera Vivid, Camera Portrait, Adobe Standard (which is Adobe's interpretation), and a number of others.  But it's up to you to choose which one of those profiles works best for you, and to set up Lightroom for your particular shooting style.  If you don't want to bother with all this, then shoot JPEG images, and use all of your in-camera settings.  They will be part of the JPEG image and you won't have to worry about it.  But if you are going to shoot raw, you have to decide what your defaults are going to be.  And I don't believe that it's going to change by Adobe adding some magic algorithm.  It's a lot more complicated than what you suggest.