13 Replies Latest reply: Aug 29, 2010 8:24 AM by Dan Daily RSS

    ACR 6.0 Noise Reduction Controls

    RASouthworth Community Member

      Ok, need some help wrt the new Noise Reduction controls.

       

      Set the D300 to ISO 3200 and fired off a few shots into some dim corners using natural light.  My default settings are the same as ACR except I have Luminance default set to 20.

       

      My first reaction is I may not need to use Neat Image much, the default results were good.  I increased Luminance to 30 with all the other settings at default (Luminance Detail = 50, Luminance Contrast = 0, Color = 25, Color Detail = 50) and the image at 100% looked smooth with little loss in detail.

       

      I read the help screens as to detail and contrast adjustment effects.  However, I was hard pressed to find much use for these - Luminance Detail just seemed to either add or subtract from the Luminance setting, and Luminance Contrast seemed to have no effect at all.  And Color Detail also has little or no effect, at least to my eyes.

       

      I was looking mainly at shadow areas, although I did examine some midtone and hightlight areas as well.  Perhaps somebody in the know could elaborae on how best to use the controls.

       

      Richard Southworth

        • 1. Re: ACR 6.0 Noise Reduction Controls
          MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

          Hi Richard, the effects of those controls become more visible on noisier images. Try using the highest extended ISO offered by your D300 (Hi-1? Hi-2? I forget the limit on the D300.)

          • 2. Re: ACR 6.0 Noise Reduction Controls
            RASouthworth Community Member

            Eric,

             

            Thanks for the reply.  I went into un-charted (for me) territory HI1, nominally ISO 6400 on the D300, and jumped back into ACR 6.0.

             

            If I turn the Luminance way up (80+) and I also dial in some pretty strong sharpening, then I can see the effects of Luminance Contrast, brings some global detail back into smoother areas.  The Luminance Detail still leaves me confused, seems that raising Luminance or decreasing Luminance Detail (and vice versa) has pretty much the same effect, hard to see any difference.  And by Color = 25 the color noise is gone, can't find anything to do with Color Detail.

             

            In any event I was impressed by what I could dig out of an ISO 6400 image; again I state that it will be a rare instance when I'll need to use other than ACR for noise reduction.  Neat stuff, keep it up.

             

            Richard Southworth

             

            P.S. Link to final ISO 6400 effort, jpeg saved directly out of ACR 6.0 http://rgbaustin.com/NRTest.jpg

             

            Save it out to examine in detail.

            • 3. Re: ACR 6.0 Noise Reduction Controls
              Dorin Nicolaescu-Musteață Community Member

              Luma Detail slide is a parameter that sets a balance between what is noise and what is detail.

               

              Try this:

               

              Take a really noisy image, but with fine detail. Crank up both NR amount and detail to 100 — this should wipe out all the noise in some areas and leave strong NR artifacts in others. Now, start to back off detail, and see the artifacts start to go away. Stop when the level of artifacts is acceptable. In the end, drop the amount, until the overall noise level is acceptable to you (i.e. the image doesn't look plastic).

               

              Also, I have a feeling that the detail slider woks differently from 0-50 and from 50 to 100. from 50-100 it works mostly on high frequency noise (finest detail). From 50 downward its effect on the high frequency noise stays pretty much constant, and it wokd mostly on med and low freq. noise (rougher detail). Maybe Eric can shed some light over it (if it's not a trade secret).

              • 4. Re: ACR 6.0 Noise Reduction Controls
                MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                Yes, Detail is effectively the transition point between "what is noise" and "what is detail". As you drag it to the right you are more likely to preserve very fine, close-to-pixel-level detail but you are also likely to leave more spurious pixels (i.e., impulse noise) in your image. As you drag it to the left, you will get a smoother result with less chance of isolated pixel noise, but fine edges (hair, fur, etc.) are also more likely to get smoothed out (perhaps undesirably so). The tradeoff between noise & detail preservation is clearly subjective (user-dependent, content-dependent) and is left in the hands of the user, with the default setting of 50 considered to be a reasonable starting point for many images. There is not an inherent difference in behavior between values < 50 and values > 50.

                 

                Note that Detail is particularly needed when processing non-raw images (e.g., JPEGs, TIFFs) because CR does not really know the history of the file. It could be a camera-produced JPEG, a fine-grained film scan, a noisy film scan, an already noise-reduced image, etc. So unlike with raw files, CR does not really "know" the inherent noise content of a non-raw file, so it may be more important to tweak this setting for non-raw files (for this reason, the effective range is also greatly expanded for non-raw files).

                 

                Detail is very different from the Luminance slider. The latter is effectively a volume control, which says "how much" smoothing to apply to noisy areas. The former says "tell me what is and isn't noise". You can, for example, crank up Luminance to do a ton of smoothing in noisy areas, but if Detail is inappropriately set to a too-high value, then you'll still get a noisy result, because CR will incorrectly consider some truly noisy areas to be "detail" (and hence not smooth it).

                • 5. Re: ACR 6.0 Noise Reduction Controls
                  sjprg Community Member

                  Ok I just spent about 45 minutes playing around with the noise settings per MadManChan's reply and advice on using the sliders. Bottom line is that while ACR 6.0 noise controls are a vast improvement, one click of NoiseWare beat my best efforts of 45 minutes of manual adjustment.

                  What does Noiseware know that Adobe doesen't? DXO , NoiseWare, and FocusMagic lead the way in the bleeding edge of processing, Its too bad that Adobe with all its resources doesen't look closer at what they do and incorperate the technology.

                   

                  Don't get me wrong, I have purchased every version of Photoshop from 3.0 on, and will continue to do so. My bookshelfs contain a whole row of Photoshop boxes, and another shelf of Photoshop books and I have all of my digital images from 2002 on and can see the improvements in Image processing from the different products on the market by reprocessing my RAWs with each version and product and comparing them. Personaly I would like to see ACR evolve into a separate productthat could be invoked directly from Windows Explorer or Finder with Kelbys 7 basic functions and a few tweeks. Lightroom was a start in that direction until they added the database which is a PITA. Correct fileing in Explorer does the job quicker and easier.

                  Paul

                  • 6. Re: ACR 6.0 Noise Reduction Controls
                    Ian Lyons CommunityMVP

                    sjprg wrote

                     

                    Its too bad that Adobe with all its resources doesen't look closer at what they do and incorperate the technology.

                     

                     

                     

                     

                    Ever hear of the word Patent?

                     

                     

                    Lightroom was a start in that direction until they added the database which is a PITA. Correct fileing in Explorer does the job quicker and easier.

                     

                     

                    Lightroom has used a database since the very first public beta.

                    • 7. Re: ACR 6.0 Noise Reduction Controls
                      Hudechrome-sd9sPI Community Member

                      What we need is a truly stochastic noise reduction, a content aware algorithm for noise reduction. I get better, faster results with Nik, which can be set to Set it and forget it for camera/ ISO values.

                       

                      Where non-raw noise reduction plays a significant part in my work is cleaning up the noise that emerges when doing large corrections in the B&W conversions. It wuould likely be faster to do it in ACR6, but in any case I have to either save and load from PS to ACR, or invoke Dfine from the filter menu. At times, I'll make a selection before going to Dfine, or use the eraser after setting Dfine to the best compromise.

                      • 8. Re: ACR 6.0 Noise Reduction Controls
                        MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                        Interesting feedback, but frankly it's not productive for us unless 

                        you provide sample images that we can use for investigation to figure 

                        out what's going on. We do have test images in-house and supplied by 

                        end users where we feel comfortable that ACR 6 and LR 3 b2's noise 

                        processing capabilities are second to none, even at default settings. 

                        But there are obviously many variables involved, so we'll need more 

                        info to have a productive discussion.

                         

                        Eric

                        • 9. Re: ACR 6.0 Noise Reduction Controls
                          sjprg Community Member

                          sjprg wrote

                           

                          Its too bad that Adobe with all its resources doesen't look closer at what they do and incorperate the technology.

                           

                           

                           

                           

                          Ever hear of the word Patent?

                           

                          So, Pay the royalties, give us the technology. Adobe has been known to buy small companies.

                           

                           

                          Lightroom was a start in that direction until they added the database which is a PITA. Correct fileing in Explorer does the job quicker and easier.

                           

                           

                          Lightroom has used a database since the very first public beta.

                           

                          That’s where they went wrong.

                          • 10. Re: ACR 6.0 Noise Reduction Controls
                            sjprg Community Member

                            I tried to attach a CR2 from a Canon 1DSIII but this is too large for the forum message service.

                             

                            I'm sure that somewhere in Photoshop's labs there is a current copy of NoiseWare you can compare test images with.

                            I'll be happy to send you a couple of images if you give me an email address to send to.

                            • 11. Re: ACR 6.0 Noise Reduction Controls
                              D Fosse-QDEaQ1 Community Member

                              Attach a 100% screenshot using the camera icon in the formatting bar.

                               

                              I'm really curious to see this.

                              • 12. Re: ACR 6.0 Noise Reduction Controls
                                MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                Sure. Please do send an image to YouSendIt.com with target email 

                                address of madmanchan2000@yahoo.com. And yes I do have a personal 

                                license for Noiseware Pro (and many other denoising packages).

                                 

                                Eric

                                • 13. Re: ACR 6.0 Noise Reduction Controls
                                  Dan Daily Community Member

                                  Just started using ACR 6.2 beta and am very impressed with the luninous noise reduction and sharpening using the sharpen mask. There is often no loss of discernable detail. I cannot match this with a very popular third party plugin.

                                   

                                  It did take awhile to understand the how well the luminous NR and Sharpening with mask can work together.

                                   

                                  Don't suppose the sharpening mask can be used for selective noise reduction, that would be so nice?